Help Identifying 1880-1890s Photos

[theshowandme]

Hey folks,

I have been asked by a good friend to help identify subjects in these photos.

I figured this is the best place.

The info we have is 1880-1890s time period

I’ll post zoomed in photos on some of these below as well

Any help is appreciated

-Don

[theshowandme]

Looks like the first photo has Comiskey in it from 1888

https://www.flickr.com/photos/librar...ss/3970979595/

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Nice! I'd love that Hamilton photo, being Canadian. One of the players I see identified on that is Elton "Icebox" Chamberlain. Such a great baseball name. According to BB-R, this was his first professional team. He was only 17.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

OK, we need some uniform and ear guys...

Top left of the Louisville photo looks quite a bit like Honus facially, but the uniforms and ears would dictate otherwise. Guessing those uniforms predate Honus' era. I'm seeing some of those silly hats that scream (DON'T CALL THEM) Scrapps!

[Fred]

Don, are all of those yours? Nice!!!

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by Fred

Don, are all of those yours? Nice!!!

I wish! A friend has them and is looking for more information.


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[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

OK, we need some uniform and ear guys...

Top left of the Louisville photo looks quite a bit like Honus facially, but the uniforms and ears would dictate otherwise. Guessing those uniforms predate Honus' era. I'm seeing some of those silly hats that scream (DON'T CALL THEM) Scrapps!

Hahaha I’m glad I’m not the only one who saw that

Google reverse image search thought so too

But I’m not certain. Nor do I have my hopes up

[molenick]

The first photo uses the same image that is on the 1888 World Beaters cabinet but it seems like the photo posted is a later copy to me...but that is always hard to tell from a scan.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Several Major Leaguers in the Hamilton photo.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...gi?id=da99f9da

[molenick]

Here is a better image where you can read the player's names. Also, I see that the photo you posted does not have the players numbered...so maybe it is an original photo and not a second generation photo taken from the cabinet.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Hahaha I’m glad I’m not the only one who saw that

Google reverse image search thought so too

But I’m not certain. Nor do I have my hopes up

I'm not certain either, but my hopes would be pretty high based on the hair, eyes, mouth, bone structure.

It's a fair bit closer than this, anyway... https://www.ebay.com/itm/134082015029

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by molenick

Here is a better image where you can read the player's names. Also, I see that the photo you posted does not have the players numbered...so maybe it is an original photo and not a second generation photo taken from the cabinet.

Although Molenick has posted a copy of the image with numbers and names, the numbers are a little hard to read on the photo, so I've listed them below:

1888 St. Louis Browns

Top Row, L-R: Arlie Latham (3B), mascot, Tip O'Neill (LF).
Middle Row, L-R: Bill White (SS), Jim Devlin (P), Yank Robinson (2B), Tommy McCarthy (RF), Silver King (P), Joe Herr (SS).
Second to Bottom Row, Seated on bench, L-R: Jack Boyle (C), Nat Hudson (P), Charles Comiskey (1B), Jocko Milligan (C), Tom Dolan (C).
Bottom Row Seated on ground, L-R: Ice Box Chamberlain (P), Harry Lyons (CF).

[RUKen]

The Louisville team photo does not have Honus Wagner in it, but it does have Pete Browning, who ought to be in the HOF. He is on the far left in the middle row. The uniform shirts match the style worn in 1885 and 1886, but the caps do not match those seen in any other photos from those years (but the record is incomplete). The manager (in street clothes) looks like Jim Hart, who managed the team in those two seasons only. I've attached below a composite of the 1885 team in street clothes with IDs; in a separate post I'll attach an image of the 1886 post-season barnstorming team.

1885 Louisville Colonels

Top Row (L-R): John Kerins (1B), Amos Cross (C), Norm Baker (P), Al Mays (P).
Second Row (L-R): Leech Maskrey (LF), Guy Hecker (P/1B), Dan Sullivan (C), Chicken Wolf (RF).
Center: Jim Hart (Mgr.).
Third Row (L-R): Pete Browning (LF), Phil Reccius (3B), Joe Crotty (C), Monk Cline (3B/LF).
Bottom Row (L-R): Joe Miller (SS), Billy Geer (SS), Ed Whiting (DNP*), Tom McLaughlin (2B).
*Ed Whiting was a catcher for Louisville in 1884, but did not play for the team in 1885.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

The Louisville team photo does not have Honus Wagner in it, but it does have Pete Browning, who ought to be in the HOF. He is on the far left in the middle row. The uniform shirts match the style worn in 1885 and 1886, but the caps do not match those seen in any other photos from those years (but the record is incomplete). The manager (in street clothes) looks like Jim Hart, who managed the team in those two seasons only. I've attached below a composite of the 1885 team in street clothes with IDs; in a separate post I'll attach an 1886 image.

1886 Louisville Colonels post-season barnstorming team

Jim Hart (Mgr.), center.
Clockwise starting after mascot (Jim Hart's son):
Tony Hellman (C/DNP), Reddy Mack (2B), Joe Werrick (3B), Paul Cook (1B), Monk Cline (OF/DNP)(under Hart), Dave Foutz (P/DNP), Hub Collins (LF), Phil Reccius (OF), Bill Dighton White (SS).
DNP indicates players who did not play on the Louisville team in the 1886 AA season.

[judsonhamlin]

I’m fairly sure it’s the 1887-88 Louisville team. The manager is Honest John Kelly and Lave Cross is top row third from the right. Joe Werrick is in the chair on the far right

.

Originally Posted by RUKen

The Louisville team photo does not have Honus Wagner in it, but it does have Pete Browning, who ought to be in the HOF. He is on the far left in the middle row. The uniform shirts match the style worn in 1885 and 1886, but the caps do not match those seen in any other photos from those years (but the record is incomplete). The manager (in street clothes) looks like Jim Hart, who managed the team in those two seasons only, so I'm pretty sure that that is the year. I've attached below a composite of the 1885 team in street clothes with IDs; in a separate post I'll attach an image of the 1886 post-season barnstorming team.

1885 Louisville Colonels

Top Row (L-R): John Kerins (1B), Amos Cross (C), Norm Baker (P), Al Mays (P).
Second Row (L-R): Leech Maskrey (LF), Guy Hecker (P/1B), Dan Sullivan (C), Chicken Wolf (RF).
Center: Jim Hart (Mgr.).
Third Row (L-R): Pete Browning (LF), Phil Reccius (3B), Joe Crotty (C), Monk Cline (3B/LF).
Bottom Row (L-R): Joe Miller (SS), Billy Geer (SS), Ed Whiting (DNP*), Tom McLaughlin (2B).
*Ed Whiting was a catcher for Louisville in 1884, but did not play for the team in 1885.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

The Louisville team photo does not have Honus Wagner in it, but it does have Pete Browning, who ought to be in the HOF. He is on the far left in the middle row. The uniform shirts match the style worn in 1885 and 1886, but the caps do not match those seen in any other photos from those years (but the record is incomplete). The manager (in street clothes) looks like Jim Hart, who managed the team in those two seasons only.

I take it back; Jim Hart is not the manager in street clothes in this photo, it is John Kelly, who managed the team in 1887 and part of 1888. The presence of Lave Cross in the back row was the clincher; Lave did not join this team until the beginning of '87. I believe that this image dates from the 1888 pre-season, and they are wearing a different home uniform than was known for this team. I've assigned IDs to most of the personnel:

Top Row (L-R): Unknown (maybe Amos Cross, who played for Louisville in 1887 but did not stick with the team in '88), Jimmy "Chicken" Wolf, Paul Cook, John Kerins, Lave Cross, Hub Collins, Elton Chamberlain.
Middle Row (L-R): Pete Browning, William Veach (who appeared in one game for Louisville in 1887, but like A. Cross did not play for them in '88), Guy Hecker, John Kelly, Toad Ramsey, Bill White, Joe Werrick.
Bottom Row (L-R): Reddy Mack, Scott Stratton, Sam Smith.

Edited to add: I have subsequently determined that this is more likely an 1887 image, and a few of the above IDs are incorrect. Read on...

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

At least three of these photos apparently have Icebox Chamberlain depicted. Could there be a connection here? Was he on any of the other teams?

The OP is in northern Virginia; Chamberlain died in Baltimore. Very close by. Perhaps an outside shot these were from his estate? Who knows.

Is there any writing on the backs of any of these photos?

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

I’m fairly sure it’s the 1887-88 Louisville team. The manager is Honest John Kelly and Lave Cross is top row third from the right. Joe Werrick is in the chair on the far right

.

Agreed; I had reached the same conclusion and was assigning IDs. Have a look at post #25 in this thread and let me know if you agree with the assignments.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

The BHS team photo looks like a bunch of kids. HS has to mean high school. Chamberlain moved to Buffalo when he was very young. Buffalo High School, perhaps?

I dug up some of my old research. Chamberlain stayed in Buffalo until at least 1920, per census records and city directories. He was employed as a mechanic/machinist and sheet metal worker, all in that city.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

At least three of these photos apparently have Icebox Chamberlain depicted. Could there be a connection here? Was he on any of the other teams?

The OP is in northern Virginia; Chamberlain died in Baltimore. Very close by. Perhaps an outside shot these were from his estate? Who knows.

Is there any writing on the backs of any of these photos?

There is a connection!

I asked my friend for more info and he tracked it down.

This is pretty funny

[prewinter]

Here is some information on the Crandall baseball club of Buffalo, 1889.

[prewinter]

The Louisville Courier-Journal reported on May 5, 1887 that new photographs of the Louisville club were done and on exhibition. This is around the same time that Amos Cross left the club due to illness. It sounds like he never retruned, as he died the following summer of consumption.

So that would suggest this photo was early 1887 perhaps?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Hilarious! Glad to have made the connection. Be sure to ask for some photos of the backs if there is writing on there.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by prewinter

The Louisville Courier-Journal reported on May 5, 1887 that new photographs of the Louisville club were done and on exhibition. This is around the same time that Amos Cross left the club due to illness. It sounds like he never retruned, as he died the following summer of consumption. So that would suggest this photo was early 1887 perhaps?

If the group photo was taken in 1887, then my IDs of Scott Stratton and Sam Smith cannot be correct.

Edited to add: I found a couple of newspaper articles dated January 1888 that stated that Amos Cross's health was improving, and one of those articles stated that he thought he'd be able to play ball in the coming season. Perhaps he was in spring training, but not as healthy as he had thought?

Edited again to add: It seems that William Veach had signed with St. Paul for the 1888 season, and I'm pretty sure that's him in the middle row. Lave Cross was quoted in March 1888 that his brother Amos' health had worsened again, and that he wouldn't be playing ball.

Edited one last time to add: I've found an image of Joe Neale, who played for Louisville in 1887 but was not with them in the spring or during the season of 1888. That's Neale in the middle of the bottom row, not Stratton. This must be an 1887 image. My next post will have revised IDs.

Neale

[RUKen]

1887 Louisville Base Ball Club

Top Row (L-R): Amos Cross, Jimmy "Chicken" Wolf, Paul Cook, John Kerins, Lave Cross, Hub Collins, Elton Chamberlain.
Middle Row (L-R): Pete Browning, William Veach, Guy Hecker, John Kelly, Tom "Toad" Ramsey, Bill White, Joe Werrick.
Bottom Row (L-R): Reddy Mack, Joe Neale, Unknown.

[theshowandme]

You guys are incredible

Thank you!

The collector that has these photos believes Ice Box Chamberlin is in the photos of men dressed in suits/street clothes

Not sure if those are fellow ballplayers or not

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Anybody else wonder what the photo is hanging on the wall to the right of the one plain clothes group photo? Team pic? Can anyone identify? Remember, Chamberlain might be involved.

[chalupacollects]

I was thinking a print of US presidents through that time. Top is cut off with 18 showing and 22 through that time period… just a guess


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[theshowandme]

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[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

The photos all appear to be of gentlemen from a similar era. Also, it could look like the photos are recessed and the ovals are cut into a mat board.

Above the central photo, the second word strikes me as being "Club", but it's not clear enough to say with certainty. You would think "baseball" to still be spelled as two separate words on a piece from that era, so that first word must be something else.

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by RUKen

1887 Louisville Base Ball Club

Top Row (L-R): Amos Cross, Jimmy "Chicken" Wolf, Paul Cook, John Kerins, Lave Cross, Hub Collins, Elton Chamberlain.
Middle Row (L-R): Pete Browning, William Veach, Guy Hecker, John Kelly, Tom "Toad" Ramsey, Bill White, Joe Werrick.
Bottom Row (L-R): Reddy Mack, Joe Neale, Unknown.

The spring roster for the 1887 club was given in the Louisville Courier-Journal on April 3, 1887. All of the players you identified are listed, with the adition player as (Phil) Reccius, so that would suggest he is the unknown in the right front. I can believe that assignment.

BTW Nice job on the identifications.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by prewinter

The spring roster for the 1887 club was given in the Louisville Courier-Journal on April 3, 1887. All of the players you identified are listed, with the additional player as (Phil) Reccius, so that would suggest he is the unknown in the right front. I can believe that assignment.

Thank you for posting the spring roster; that's very helpful. I am doubtful, though, that the player on the bottom right is Phil Reccius.

Reccius / Bottom Right

[theshowandme]

Hey folks

Some of these photos are available now via Mile High

Lots 1470-1473

https://milehighcardco.com/Late_1888...LOT108324.aspx

https://milehighcardco.com/1885_Cana...LOT108327.aspx

https://milehighcardco.com/Late_1880...LOT108326.aspx

https://milehighcardco.com/1889_Cran...LOT108325.aspx

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

OK, we need some uniform and ear guys...

Top left of the Louisville photo looks quite a bit like Honus facially, but the uniforms and ears would dictate otherwise. Guessing those uniforms predate Honus' era. I'm seeing some of those silly hats that scream (DON'T CALL THEM) Scrapps!

Honus did, of course, play for Louisville and is shown in their uniform on his Henry R.'s cigar card. The resemblance is striking.