NHL players (post 1970) that do not belong in the hockey Hall Of Fame?

[Shoeless Moe]

Lindros

[irv]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Lindros

I disagree. He was a force out there and averaged 1.23 points per game, or 1.36 with Philly, and only behind Jagr at the time. The only thing missing from his resume is a Stanley Cup but considering how he was a complete player, who had a target on his back who always had to fight but still managed 865 points in 760 games, I think he is more than worthy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-oKfMuqLf0

[aro13]

Just a couple of quick corrections:

I remember reading that Craig Ramsey is the last player to go an entire season without committing a single penalty.

Actually Butch Goring did it in 1980-81. I am not certain if anyone has done it since.

I think after one of those Soviet Wings, Red Army series in the late 70s, the Red Army coach went on and on in the Forum saying Gainey was the best defensive forward he ever saw play.

It was Viktor Tikhonov and his quote was that Gainey was the best player in the world in the technical skills of the game.


There were three dynasties in the 70's and 80's - the Canadians, the Islanders and the Oilers. The Habs have 8 Hall of Famers, the Islanders 5 and the Oilers 7. That seems about right to me, although I think you could argue the Islanders deserve more.

The Habs had Dryden, Lapointe, Savard, Robinson, Lemaire, Shutt, Lafleur and Gainey. Not certain how any of them are not HOFers plus the fact that Lapointe, Savard and Lemaire were elite players before the 4 Cups in a row.

The Islanders had Smith, Potvin, Trottier, Bossy, Gillies. The only other two who might merit consideration would be Ken Morrow and Butch Goring.

The Oilers had Fuhr, Coffey, Lowe, Gretzky, Messier, Kurri and Anderson for 7. Seems about right to me.

Good point about Craig Ramsey. My family had season tickets to the Sabres in the 1970's and while I was not a Sabres fan I enjoyed watching Ramsey and Luce on the ice. I have never thought of him as a Hall of Famer but I never saw Carbonneau as one either.

[Throttlesteer]

Joe Nieuwendyk. Another compiler that never led in any category. Gillies and Anderson greatly benefitted from their surrounding talent. They're questionable at best.

[shagrotn77]

I wouldn't have put any of these guys in:

Guy Lapointe
Bill Barber
Steve Shutt
Clark Gillies
Guy Carbonneau
Cam Neely

On the fence about Vaclav Nedomansky.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

I wouldn't have put any of these guys in:

Guy Lapointe
Bill Barber
Steve Shutt
Clark Gillies
Guy Carbonneau
Cam Neely

On the fence about Vaclav Nedomansky.

Steve Shutt??

- selected 4th overall in 1972.
- scored over 800 points in 930 regular-season games.
- first left winger to score 60 goals in a season, and third highest season total for any left winger in history - even Bobby Hull never secured 60 goals in an NHL season.
- 15th all-time for career goals scored by a left winger.
- three-time All-Star with five Stanley Cup championships.

Additionally, he was noted for an exceptionally accurate and HARD shot. Don Cherry once said that "Gerry Cheevers was actually in terror of this guy".

Billy Smith went further, stating "He had a great shot. Unbelievable shot. He’d come across the blue line and he could tee it up better than anybody. And he was accurate, which is scary for someone with a slap shot"

Noted hockey author and historian Brian McFarlane also mentioned that Shutt had the fastest set of hands around the net during his time in the NHL, with an ability to corral the puck with his skates as well as protect it with his body and stick. (taken from online)

Bottom line, there are only six positions, and regarding offensive output, Shutt is ranked 15th for his position all-time. Do the math.... that would mean he ranks comparatively with the top 90 players or so that have ever played the game.

[xbaggypants]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

I wouldn't have put any of these guys in:

Guy Lapointe
Bill Barber
Steve Shutt
Clark Gillies
Guy Carbonneau
Cam Neely

On the fence about Vaclav Nedomansky.

I had to check if these were actually HOFers. Definitely remove Barber, Gillies & Lapointe. Only reason any of them are there is because they played on good teams.

[Chuck9788]

Originally Posted by xbaggypants

I had to check if these were actually HOFers. Definitely remove Barber, Gillies & Lapointe. Only reason any of them are there is because they played on good teams.

I feel that there is more to hockey than just points.

Clark Gillies was a force for the Islanders championship teams and his presence was ALWAYS felt when he was on the ice.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by aro13

The only other two who might merit consideration would be Ken Morrow and Butch Goring.

I watched Morrow's entire career from 301 and 205 at the Coliseum, I never considered him an HoF guy, but it is a nice sentiment. Goring, I think people forget his time in Los Angeles. Sort of forgotten out there for 10 prime years.

Honestly, the player that I am surprised there isn't more of a groundswell of support is the "original" JT: John Tonelli. Interestingly enough, I've run into him several times under random circumstances over there years. First time, he and I were shooting pool at an empty bar in Midtown in the mid 90s. I drunkenly got him to call my dad from a payphone in the middle of the night to say hi. To this day, my father has no recollection of this event. I ran into him at Tiffany and Company in Manhasset in the early 2000s. I brought up the phone call and we BS'd a bit. Then, I ran into at the ground breaking for Belmont. He had just finished up his meet and greet and I bumped into him with my two little kids. As he left, I said, "John, you were 7 points away from 1000 for your career!" and he cut me off and said, "My son tells me this all the time...." and then proceeded to tell me he should have hung around for those 7 points.

He was an extremely important part of that Isles team. I wonder if the Flames won in 86 or if he was on that 89 team if he would have gotten some more consideration. He's another formidable player. As Gillies was the toughest player in the league for the better part of late 70s and 80s, Tonelli was the best corner man in the league for over a decade. It is easy to talk to former Isles here on the Island, but I'd really like to talk to Flames, Kings and Aeros fans. He's closer than you'd think, too.

[Throttlesteer]

No offense, but there's a lot of reminiscing and "homer" justification with many of these arguments. Sure, the names in question were extremely valuable to their teams and contributed to their success. Counting numbers are generally the key for most players, unless they're strongly disliked by the hockey writers.
Honestly, I could probably have put 60 points up each year if I found myself on the top six of those Isles, Habs, or Oilers teams.

I agree with the statement about having Orr in the same space as Gillies. But every other sport has the same challenge. Their Halls of Fame have a fair number of Hall of Very Goods in them.

[aro13]

The Hockey Hall of Fame is likely the most random of all of the Hall of Fames. All sorts of different variables.

I watched Morrow's entire career from 301 and 205 at the Coliseum, I never considered him an HoF guy, but it is a nice sentiment.

Fair enough. US team 1980. Best defensive defensemen on a 4 time Cup Champion. Probably not enough to warrant Hall of Fame selection. It just seems the Islanders get shafted a lot in discussions.

The one big difference and why I think the Habs are deserving of all of their Hall of Famers (and I am a Bruins fan) is that the Canadiens were dominant in the regular season and the play-offs. The Islanders moreso in the play-offs.
The Canadiens lead the league in goals for and goals against. They are deserving of all of the accolades they get.

I always used to wonder when the Oilers would have 7 or 8 all-stars every year. Fuhr was the best goalie in the league, Gregg and Lowe elite defensive defensemen yet the Oilers always led the league in goals scored but despite having an elite goaltender and awesome defensemen they were never good in goals allowed. The Canadiens on the other hand had the best goalie, the best defense, and the best forwards and it shows in the statistics.

[Kevin]

Reached out to Larry Brooks (NY Post) and Howie Rose (WFAN) and both said a strong “no” to Walt Tkaczuk. As for Tonelli, they both agreed “Hall of Very Good” and Brooks went on to state Goring obviously better than Carbonneau but brought up Brent Sutter as a player worth considering.

The comparison was should Orr be in the same Hall as Carbonneau, not Orr / Gillies. Gillies, when compared to others that are in, measures up nicely.

Brooks was a firm no on Ramsay, too.

[Kevin]

Was Coffey that great defensively? Gregg, yes, Lowe, one of my favs, but Coffey wasn’t Potvin defensively.

As for being a Bruins fan, you had to listen to that idiot Milbury name names and call out Stan Jonathan for the “too many men on the ice” penalty. No other player on that team said a word about Jonathan. No one mentioned his name I. The press. But that a.h. Milbury? What a POS.

But I digress.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

No offense, but there's a lot of reminiscing and "homer" justification with many of these arguments. Sure, the names in question were extremely valuable to their teams and contributed to their success. Counting numbers are generally the key for most players, unless they're strongly disliked by the hockey writers.
Honestly, I could probably have put 60 points up each year if I found myself on the top six of those Isles, Habs, or Oilers teams.

I agree with the statement about having Orr in the same space as Gillies. But every other sport has the same challenge. Their Halls of Fame have a fair number of Hall of Very Goods in them.

Yeah, some of the comments are hilarious.
The bias people have for teams and players they like definitely clouds logic and even basic common sense.
And no manager that has ever lived would select Goring over Gainey.... Never.

What's next? Huddy over Coffey??

** I should add that I think Goring was an excellent player who greatly contributed to the
Islanders and is well deserving of praise. I just think Gainey is a better player.
His selection as one of the NHL's 100 Greatest I believe supports that.

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/the-t...hrowback-style
https://icehockey.fandom.com/wiki/Li...he_Hockey_News

[mortimer brewster]

I would put Goring's Helmet in the Hall of Fame. Maybe in an evolution of the Hockey Helmet exhibit.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

And no manager that has ever lived would select Goring over Gainey.... Never.


** I should add that I think Goring was an excellent player who greatly contributed to the
Islanders and is well deserving of praise. I just think Gainey is a better player.
His selection as one of the NHL's 100 Greatest I believe supports that.

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/the-t...hrowback-style
https://icehockey.fandom.com/wiki/Li...he_Hockey_News

Interesting, the conversation was Goring over Carbonneau, though. On my end at least.

[strohman99]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Lindros

I'm with you on this on! I know he had a few solid seasons, but he was built up to be one of the all time greats.

Refusing to play for Quebec really turned me off too. Always had the attitude that he was an elite player before he played many games.

Even his best seasons weren't elite when compared to other guys his size in the 90's. I never thought he would get in to the HOF!

[irv]

Originally Posted by strohman99

I'm with you on this on! I know he had a few solid seasons, but he was built up to be one of the all time greats.

Refusing to play for Quebec really turned me off too. Always had the attitude that he was an elite player before he played many games.

Even his best seasons weren't elite when compared to other guys his size in the 90's. I never thought he would get in to the HOF!

His refusal to play for Quebec was based on the owner, Marcel Abut, not the team itself. He said if Marcel Abut was the owner of the Leaf's, he would have refused to play for them as well. As you will see, once the people found out how much of scum bag Marcel was, they welcomed Lindros back with open arms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm1b3_u4c9U

Marcel Abut's charges. Lindros knew about him and his behavior but of course the media didn't mention anything about it because they love a story.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...orced%20kisses.
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...peaks-out.html
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ticle28179183/
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/2...ives-1.3409544

[Throttlesteer]

The NHL so badly wanted Lindros to be "The Next One". He was a monster for Oshawa in the OHL and coming up at a time when there was a deep pool of talent coming from eastern Europe. Remember, this was right after the Iron Curtain fell and there was still a lot of uncertainty and distaste for former USSR countries. The early 90's saw the likes of Jaromir Jagr, Sergei Fedorov, Pavel Bure, Niklas Lidstrom, and Alexander Mogilny come to their own. Lindros had all of the raw tools and tremendous size to change the game and draw in new fans. But, the concussions, many as a result of immaturity, steered his path a different direction.

For the record, I can't stand Lindros. But he was quite a force when paired up with LeClair.