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  #1  
Old 02-14-2008, 06:52 PM
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Posted By: scott

So after about 3 years I gathered up the energy to send some cards into SGC for grading. I guess some of the rules changed as I received a call from SGC at the office today. They too noticed that its been a long period since I've submitted anything. The gentleman that called told me that you shouldn't send any cards in screw downs as there will be an additional charge to remove them. Ok what he said was logical as older card cards can get adhered to the plastic and when removed can , in some cases , damage the card. He then told me that one or two of the cards submitted may get billed at a higher rate then listed. Why ? because the value I gave the cards are higher then what they may think the cards may be worth. Why would they be asking me the person that submitted the cards what the value is? I based the value on what I paid. Now it becomes subjective. I find this a strange way to put a value to a service based on the value of a card. The amount of work and expetise to grade say and N172 in a grade 3 is the same as a grade 7...Yet they want to charge more for the service. I'm a bit perplexed. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Why pay $20 for a Ramly if its graded say a 6 Vs $10 if its graded a 4????? Hey I've always put my faith in SGC graded cards but this policy just isn't correct. Someone with long hair pays the barber the same price for a cut as someone with short hair. Including me who's just about bald.

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  #2  
Old 02-14-2008, 07:16 PM
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Posted By: Matt

The way it was explained to me by Michael at SGC is that the difference in price is for the faster service, and the company's liability if the card is damaged or lost. It doesn't exactly make sense since if you value the card at $50, that's all they would be on the hook for, even if it was really worth $2000.

While we're on the topic of SGC pricing, what's with the minimum $50 charge for holdering a T3?

On a positive not, I very much appreciate SGC allowing you to submit and receive cards slabbed at different tiers at the same time to save on shipping.

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  #3  
Old 02-14-2008, 07:30 PM
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Posted By: rand

I think if looked at psa website, their pricing would give you sticker shock. SGC doesnt make you pay a club fee to join and you will get your cards back in a timely manner. the prices go up with a faster turn-around time. Michael will work with you if you have any additional questions.

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Old 02-14-2008, 07:32 PM
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Posted By: JK

This is not unique to SGC. PSA does the same thing. Higher the value of the card - the more SGC's liability (potentially). Therefore, the more you pay to have it graded. The benefit - you get it back faster.

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  #5  
Old 02-14-2008, 07:32 PM
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Posted By: Jason Duncan

I think SGC is the most reasonable grading company in the business. They by far are the most consistant. I personally buy much more in SGC holders because I know my risk is minimal. While they may not be the quickest (I have never had an issue), their customer service (Michael) is second to none. I much prefer to have my stuff graded accurately and consistantly than roll the dice. Also on large submissions I am sure they would work with you. What you get from SGC is cut and dry. You know the terms up front and their prices are not that high. I think we are just beginning to see the pre war market spill into the 40s and 50s where SGC is selling better than the other companies. There is a reason why. I think we are on the edge of SGC becoming the premier grading/authenticating source of vintage baseball cards and prices are starting to reflect that. I am currently crossing all I can into SGC holders for the long term with the exception of what I am selling. I think it is great the tpyes of specials they run from month to month. Good luck.

Jason

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  #6  
Old 02-14-2008, 07:41 PM
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Posted By: Matt

Josh - maybe you can explain the liability part to me, since I don't understand it. If I submit a card and declare it's value at $50, why would SGC be liable for any more then that, even if the card is actually worth $2,000?

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  #7  
Old 02-14-2008, 07:50 PM
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Posted By: JK

Matt - how many people do you think, if given the opportunity, would value all their cards at $50 to get a cheaper turnaround time regardless of value? Now, say those same people are all sending in $1000 cards and they all come back creased or otherwise damaged. Do you think that they will all just say, "Oh well, silly me, I should have valued it higher - just send me the $50 and I'll be happy" or do you think its more likely that they demand to be compensated for the lost value to their $1000 card? Now, lets suppose you are correct that legally sgc is only on the hook for $50 (which I dont necessarily agree with) but sgc gets threatened with a lawsuit over the additional lost value. Does it cost sgc more time and money to deal with the threatened action than it does to just pay the person what they are asking?

Regardless of what their liability might be capped at, if Im them, I require that you pay for the service level that the card should rightfully be valued at so I dont have to deal with the headaches.

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Old 02-14-2008, 07:59 PM
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Posted By: Matt

Josh - I understand the headache argument, but thanks for spelling it out so eloquently. I'm curious about the legal side of things since I have minimal knowledge in that arena. How could SGC be on the hook for more then $50 if the submitter declared the value at $50? You indicated it was possible.

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  #9  
Old 02-14-2008, 08:06 PM
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Posted By: JK

Actually what I said was I dont necessarily agree. If I remember sgc's submission form correctly, they ask you for a value that is used for purposes of figuring out how much insurance they purchase when they mail it back to you as well as the service turnaround. I dont recall any disclaimers or any other contractual language that would prevent you from arguing the card is worth more than you valued it, that you simply didnt want to pay for the insurance (because you felt so confident about the us postal service, etc) and you wanted a longer turnaround so you wouldnt have to pay as much. While your self-proclaimed valuation may be some evidence of value, I dont believe that there is anything written in that submission form that would prevent you from introducing evidence that the card is worth more than the amount you put down.

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  #10  
Old 02-14-2008, 08:18 PM
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Posted By: Matt

thanks Josh; makes sense.

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  #11  
Old 02-15-2008, 12:21 AM
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Posted By: Michael Goldberg

Hi! If anyone has questions regarding SGC's grading fees or declared/insured value policies, you may call me directly at the office during normal business hours. The toll free phone number is 1-800-742-9212 x105.

With respect to declared value vs. insured value, you may have different amounts on an invoice in those 2 boxes. An example would be if you had a vintage common with an ungraded declared value of $25, but you felt that if it graded an 84 or 88 it might be valued at $500. The declared value in the box on the form for that card would be $25, but you can pay for extra insurance based upon the $500 graded value for return shipping, and fill in that higher value in the box on the form for total insured value.

As always, please feel free to contact me via phone or email at the office, and I will be more than happy to answer any questions.

I would also like to thank all of our customers for using SGC for your card grading needs. We greatly appreciate your business and support!

Michael Goldberg
SGC Customer Service Manager

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  #12  
Old 02-15-2008, 05:22 AM
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Posted By: scott

I guess since I started this thread I would do some follow-up on the responses.
1- SGC is in my opinion is the most trusted grading company ( maybe after saying that they won't kill the cards I submitted )
2-The gentleman that called me was extremely courteous ( I hope this second plug helps me too )
I don't understand the liability issue. Why are they liable? for what? I haven't asked for quicker service. Hey I waited 3 plus years to just send in some cards. I can wait another 10 days or even another 20 days. The fact is and to my amazement I can't even tell that I had taken any cards out of one of my show cases. What a sad state of affairs. I pull out about 50 cards and still can't see the bottom of my show case but that's another story. Nothing that has been said in the responses can explain to me why if I bought 2 Ramly's 3 years ago and paid $100.00 each ( both commons ) why one would cost $10 to grade and one would cost $20... I look forward to meeting some of the members of this board Sat for dinner. Leon its been way too long since we've seen each other in person. I don't know many of the folks on these threads but I'm sure you've seen me bidding on ebay over the years. I bid under the name of Mr.Ginter and my collecting focus is 19th century cards ( N162,28,29,184,43) , signs and packs.Packs having been more of a focus over the past few years.

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  #13  
Old 02-15-2008, 05:29 AM
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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

I based the value on what I paid.

So going with this logic, when you sell a card do you arrive at the value based on what you paid?

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  #14  
Old 02-15-2008, 05:33 AM
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Posted By: Matt

Rob - I think his point is that what you paid for a card should be just as valid a determinant of value as what it sells for; not that they are the same. After all, isn't value determined by sales history?

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Old 02-15-2008, 05:56 AM
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Posted By: leon

Sales history is only one determinant in value, and it could be a very minor one. The bigger value estimator is what someone is willing to pay today. No cards have any more intrinsic value than the heat they put off if they are burnt.....take care

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  #16  
Old 02-15-2008, 05:59 AM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I have no use for graded cards, unless I'm about to sell a card. I understand that all of you guys love graded cards. What follows is not intended to offend.

As I read the posts above, the mental vision I had was of someone with both eyes closed, asking about a noise or commotion. As the disturbance persists, and they are dissatisfied with offered explanations, they peek through one eye as they barely raise an eyelid. Almost getting a glimpse of reality. Just what would happen if a collector took all of those grading, slabbing, shipping, and insurance fees and plowed that into buying more cards, instead? No more anxiety about some third person's opinion as to the condition of a card. (I don't doubt some 19 or 20 year-olds are grading these cards, guys we wouldn't trust mowing our yards or parking our cars.) I think of real estate agents as folks who envision owning 6% of everything out there, if only they can get the owner dissatisfied with it, and a potential buyer sold on the notion of needing it. Or that banks own most of the real estate in this country, and they have us conned into taking turns paying them for it as the years go buy. In my mind, 100% of card collecting dollars are no longer in cards; instead, a considerable portion of it is diverted over to slab companies... Imagine what would happen in a real estate transaction if, after closing, the buyer and seller sought out another agent to 'resubmit' the deal so they could pay another commission.

So open an eye, quit paying all of those fees. Keep your cards, don't send 'em off for someone else's opinion. Touch 'em.

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Old 02-15-2008, 06:02 AM
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Posted By: Matt

leon - just to play devil's advocate (since this wasn't my argument) if I bought a card yesterday for $75 and sell it today for $2000 aren't both valid for valuation? Now, you could argue that if I was able to buy it for $75 yesterday, then clearly that was an incorrect value and $2000 is correct, but what if the $2000 was just the product of some silly bidding war? Maybe the underbidder will be able to buy the next one for $75 since his competition is gone and that's why I was able to buy it for $75 in the first place; the competition was skiing in the Rockies and didn't see the listing.

The argument is that any recent sales data could be used to make a valid argument as to value.

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Old 02-15-2008, 06:02 AM
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Posted By: scott

Rob I haven't sold any cards to base the value on. Not recently anyway. Only my purchase prices. I seem to have become a hoarder and find it difficult to let anything go. Every item I own has a story to go with it...hence the basis of my collecting obsessions. The stories about each item is the best part of the hobby for me. I've purchased so many of my cards and other "holdings" in places as far away as New Zealand and South Africa. Its amazing how American products seem to have spread out. Keep in mind that tobacco/cigarettes started their life in the states.Baseball cards among all cards were first introduced in pakgs of cigarettes. Mr Duke not only had his hands in the colonies but also around the globe. If you ever have the opportunity to visit England you'd be dumb founded as to the extent of American cards that are in the hands of collectors there. My very close friend who passed away about 3 months ago David Grimes was a Brit and he had introduced me to the expanded universe of card collecting. Sorry to get off topic.
Just finished my first cup of coffee and am feeling rather winded.

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Old 02-15-2008, 06:08 AM
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Posted By: T.Ferg

The cards I've sent to SGC were purchased 20-30 years ago, I had to add a little to my purchase price. I used high Beckett for my value. None of my stuff is rare (50's-70's). The service was as promised and the cards looked great in the SGC holder. I did have a question when I was filling out the form and left a phone message(that wasn't returned, probably because it was fairly simple) but I stumbled through and it worked out without a hitch. All my emailed questions have been answered and the collector magazine they have is really well done.

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Old 02-15-2008, 06:10 AM
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Posted By: leon

I have to say that many times it seems you don't want to read/comprehend what is written. If I am not mistaking you are questioning my stance on valuation based on a previous sale. I said:

"Sales history is only one determinant in value, and it could be a very minor one."

I stand by that statement and have thousands of transactions to prove the point....it's really not debatable it's factual....but we can continue if you want to....best regards

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Old 02-15-2008, 06:13 AM
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Posted By: Matt

leon - sorry I'm not understanding - you wrote:
"The bigger value estimator is what someone is willing to pay today. No cards have any more intrinsic value than the heat they put off if they are burnt"

I thought that means that value is mainly determined by what the card will sell for, not what you bought it for. Could you clarify, if that's not what you meant?

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Old 02-15-2008, 06:14 AM
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Posted By: Glyn Parson

With respect to being charged more for a more valuable card the liability is not just in our handling of the card but also is in conjunction with our guarantee to buy back cards that we overgrade or miss an alteration on. Also this is the industry standard, to be charged more for more valuable cards, and the fees you are charged pale greatly in comparison to some other fields such as comicbooks or coins. Again if you have any questions regarding SGC and its policies please feel free to give us a call at 1-800-742-9212.

Thank You for your interest in SGC,
Glyn Parson

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Old 02-15-2008, 06:15 AM
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Posted By: Matt

Glyn - that's an excellent point that we missed.

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Old 02-15-2008, 06:38 AM
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Posted By: JK

"In my mind, 100% of card collecting dollars are no longer in cards; instead, a considerable portion of it is diverted over to slab companies... Imagine what would happen in a real estate transaction if, after closing, the buyer and seller sought out another agent to 'resubmit' the deal so they could pay another commission."


There is so much that I find incorrect in this statement its mind boggling. If I pay to have a card graded, in my opinion, Ive improved the card. My card looks great "framed" in an sgc slab; its protected; its authenticated (yes, I knew it was authentic when I bought it and when I sent it in, but its still a benefit); finally, in all liklihood, Ive added to the value of my card. Yes, I know its the same card, but if its worth 100 raw and its worth 500 slabbed and I spent $20 to get it slabbed, I'd say that its money well spent.

As for a real estate transaction, if I could buy a house, put a bubble around it and have it double in value - I'd pay for that service (maybe even 6% - though, if your paying 6%, your not negotiating a good enough deal for yourself).

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Old 02-15-2008, 06:58 AM
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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

While I understand the argument that it should take no more time and effort to grade a T206 Wagner than it does to grade a T206 Lena Blackburne, I have absolutely no qualms about paying more to grade the more valuable card.

In my mind, it has nothing whatsoever to do with liability or guarantees or whatnot, although that certainly is a concern. In my mind it has to do with the dollars involved with more valuable cards.

I see this all the time with Goudey Ruths, but the same could be said for virtually any high-dollar card: when I see it raw, there is always some question about the card. Is it authentic? Has an edge been trimmed? Is the seller failing to disclose a flaw in the card that doesn't show up in a scan, like a wrinkle or a slight print defect, or paper loss? Exactly how much money am I willing to spend on a Goudey Ruth that LOOKS good but may not be as advertised?

Being somewhat risk-averse with respect to throwing around money, I'm not likely to buy that card at all.

Once it's in a slab, though, I can be sure that the card is authentic, I can be reasonably sure that the card is unaltered, and I can be reasonably sure that the card is in the condition advertised. I know that when a seller describes a card as "EXCELLENT" condition, that I still can't be sure what I'm getting. When the card says "SGC 60" or PSA 5 or GAI 8 or whatever, I have an entirely different level of confidence in what I'm bidding on/buying. To me, that confidence is worth something extra.

I would almost never spend a lot of money on an ungraded card that I couldn't hold in my hand first. There are only a handful of sellers that I would feel confident enough with to buy ungraded cards from with any sort of regularity. Once the card is in a holder, many of my concerns are alleviated.

I know that many other collectors feel the same way.

As far as I'm concerned, all it takes is getting burned once on a higher-dollar raw card to happily pay the premium to get it graded. I'm sure that others don't agree with me, and that's fine - it's a big hobby and there's room for all of us. But I have no more problem paying more money to grade a high-dollar card than I do paying more to insure it, store it, or display it. I think it protects me, helps preserve the value of the card, helps preserve its condition, and helps buyers be more confident in a time when so many of the cards we buy are purchased over the internet, without holding the card in hand first. I'll pay a premium for confidence, I guess.

Just my two cents. With me, two cents gets you a lot of words.

-Al

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Old 02-15-2008, 10:46 AM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Every time I see someone cut and paste something and put quotes around it at the start of a post, it is done as if it validates whatever the poster then says... I can't recall having ever done it, and can't envision doing it.

JK, I apologize if I've boggled your mind. But slabbing a card doesn't alter the card. It remains worth what it was worth. Its marketability may well have improved. But that is all. Maybe a car with an empty gas tank is worthless, one with a full tank worth more... I think the car is worth what it is worth. I think it will sell for more if it is cleaned up, detailed, and all... And I perceive that is what happens when a card gets slabbed. For those that like slabbed cards they're willing to pay more. I concede that in most instances the slab has some value and the card has some value, which is more than the card alone.

Forgive me for collecting cards for the love of the card. Forgive me for not focusing on the marketability of my cards. But I didn't collect them to market them...

So I don't see anything at all that incorrect with what I posted. I do think you're mistaken about slabbing making a card more valuable. Maybe it is a distinction I see, one that you don't.

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Old 02-15-2008, 10:51 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

"Forgive me for collecting cards for the love of the card. Forgive me for not focusing on the marketability of my cards."

apology accepted.

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  #28  
Old 02-15-2008, 10:58 AM
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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I did not realize that I don't love my cards.

I'm sort of shaken up about this. I need to re-evaluate my life.

-Al

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  #29  
Old 02-15-2008, 11:35 AM
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Posted By: leon

Maybe the house analogy is good? When I have bought my few houses there were generally at least 2 inspections made. Those are around $400-$500 ea. Would you consider buying a house without an inspection? SGC charges $50-$100 to evaluate and inspect the most valuable cards. I can tell you the little bit I have spent (3x-4x in the last year) has made up for itself many, many multiples of times. For the record I still have more raw cards in my collection than I do slabbed.....I like the smell of old cardboard in the morning!!!! I have been known to fondle them too but don't tell anyone....best regards

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Old 02-15-2008, 12:17 PM
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Posted By: JK

wow, I too didnt realize that I only loved marketing my cards and didnt actually have any affinity for the cards themselves.

as for a card being worth what it was worth - I agree. my cards raw are worth X while my cards slabbed are worth 2-5X.

Leon - I agree with the house analogy on many levels - if you slap a coat of paint on a house, its still the same house, but better protected from the elements and likely to sell for more because its better looking.

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  #31  
Old 02-15-2008, 02:45 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

It remains a distinction that some folks seem unable to perceive. The card remains the same, no change in value. This gets me back to the first post, folks need to open their eyes.


A different analogy. A one carat diamond, E color, VVS1 clarity. It has whatever value it has. Put it in a gold ring, maybe a slight change of total value, but the diamond itself retains the same original value. In a platinum mount, again maybe a slight gain in total value, but the diamond itself is worth the same. Give it to Tiffany & Co. and have them mount it in one of their rings, with their markings, now the ring will sell for MUCH more. Yet the value of the diamond itself remains the same.

And the card is worth what it is worth...



What if I got PSA to put a SGC slab, card and all, in a great big slab. Now I'd have something. Lord only knows what that card would be worth...

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Old 02-15-2008, 02:56 PM
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Posted By: Eric B

"What if I got PSA to put a SGC slab, card and all, in a great big slab. Now I'd have something. Lord only knows what that card would be worth..."

Reminds me of the old Steven Wright joke......

"I put my instant coffee in the microwave...I almost went back in time"

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  #33  
Old 02-15-2008, 03:10 PM
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Posted By: leon

Just as the house is worth the same AFTER the inspections so is the card AFTER it's authenticated. However most folks would pay a little more after said inspections. We are arguing semantics but I do agree with you at least partially.....Hope you see my point too? take care

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  #34  
Old 02-15-2008, 03:27 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I see...

A few cards I've sold I have gotten slabbed. I don't think the card itself becomes worth more, but I do recognize that a slabbed card usually sells for more. And a very few slabbed cards I've bought I've left in their slabs, 'cause I planned on selling them. The slab affects the marketability of the card, not the card itself.

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Old 02-15-2008, 03:39 PM
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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Graded cards are not worth more. Ungraded cards are just worth less.

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Old 02-15-2008, 03:42 PM
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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

LOL, Greg.

-Al

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Old 02-15-2008, 03:48 PM
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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"What if I got PSA to put a SGC slab, card and all, in a great big slab. Now I'd have something. Lord only knows what that card would be worth..."

Something like this?


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