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  #1  
Old 06-15-2012, 02:29 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Default Lance Armstrong and USADA

So the USADA has decided to formally charge Lance with a wide range of doping charges. As well as his team manager, trainers and doctors.

Which is puzzling. Despite constant rumblings of accusations the feds looked into him for 2 years and didn't find enough to indict, and with all the winning, he's one of the most tested athletes of all time (If not the most) He's passed over 500 tests both in and out of competition.

End result immediately is he's barred from triathlons, and may be stripped of all 7 Tour de France wins What a mess!

(One guy who confessed a few years ago would have been stripped of his win, but wasn't because they would have had to go back to something like the 15th place finisher to find someone that was presumed clean)


All I can think of is that someone with money and clout has a serious "thing" going about him. I have an idea who, and I hope I'm wrong. If not this will be one seriously ugly issue.

Steve B
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  #2  
Old 06-15-2012, 09:46 PM
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To me it's clear he used. In a sport filled with drug cheaters, it's ridiculous to believe that someone could win 7 Tours while clean. Fails the common sense test.

I remember a couple of years ago a PED suspended rider was interviewed during a live Tour de France race. He was asked where he thought the first clean rider would finish. He said "Probably about 54th place." Kind of funny and kind of sad.

As far as the current legal case against Lance, I don't have an informed opinion. For all I know, the evidence they have may be weak.

Last edited by drc; 06-15-2012 at 10:00 PM.
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  #3  
Old 06-16-2012, 08:21 AM
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The whole situation is just weird.

I'm completely on the fence about wether he did or didn't. But I do think tour #6 was maybe fixed. Breaking one of the sports biggest records and nobody seemed to really want to beat him? It just seemed wrong.

You'd think with the scrutiny the racers are under he would have been caught. 500+ passed tests in an era when they test to absurd levels for damn near everything is amazing. I mean, if eating a poppy seed bagel can cause a positive test for opiates and get a rider a 2 year suspension OR a rider can merely go to a different training site than he put on his "where will you be during the offseason" forms and have that counted as a positive result how did he avoid getting caught? (Both actually happened, the first overturned on appeal to WADA but would have stood without a reciept, the second got a guy fired and removed from the tour while leading)

Of course, he had the budget and backing that he could have been a couple steps ahead of the testers.

Part of the problem is that all his accusers are problematic. From all I've heard he's only a great guy to ride with/for if you follow his plan. The guys who did were treated very well, those who maybe asked for a large role or more recognition for themselves were shunned and fired. The better ones moved on to other teams but got no cooperation of any kind, the marginal guys essentially got blacklisted. And that's usually the group that's making the accusations.

Following the money makes me think the recent stuff is being put out there by Lemond. He's been very critical of Lance publicly, and has made accusations that don't appear to have much substance. That caused Trek to cancel his product line and sue him for the money lost or something. He countered claiming the never marketed his stuff as well as the contract called for. So big money+axe being ground= Maybe he had enough clout to get charges filed? I hope that's not the case as it can only get messier from there.
------------
The UCI released a list of riders ranked by level of suspicion. Things like knowing Dr Ferrari -one of the peoplenamed in USADAs accusations and a guy who's been caught in the past - put someone in the suspect category.
Some of the names rated as not at all suspect astounded me. Like Cancellara. He routinely beats everyone in Time trials by a wide margin. Including guys who are very suspect.

The european attitude is very different from ours, at least in cycling. The riders who are caught, take their 2 year suspension and seem contrite are welcomed back. The ones that make lame excuses and fight too hard to not be suspended are pretty much done. They'd be ok with Canseco, but definetly not Bonds.
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  #4  
Old 06-16-2012, 11:38 AM
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I would be shocked to find out that he was able to win 7 TdeF in a sport full of cheaters without being a user.
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  #5  
Old 06-18-2012, 08:54 PM
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Jan Ullrich was 2nd behind Lance in 3 of his wins, does that mean he would get those titles if Lance is stripped of his wins... kind of ironic since Ullrich is a long suspected doper...
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drc View Post
To me it's clear he used. In a sport filled with drug cheaters, it's ridiculous to believe that someone could win 7 Tours while clean. Fails the common sense test.

I remember a couple of years ago a PED suspended rider was interviewed during a live Tour de France race. He was asked where he thought the first clean rider would finish. He said "Probably about 54th place." Kind of funny and kind of sad.

As far as the current legal case against Lance, I don't have an informed opinion. For all I know, the evidence they have may be weak.
I occasionally watch the Tour de France, because I enjoy the scenery. I could care less which "dope" wins.
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  #7  
Old 06-19-2012, 07:42 AM
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Cycling is a bizarre sport. Both the sport and its attitudes towards doping. I'm still a fan and collect race used Time trial bikes from roughly 1979-1996. I Could expand that to 1999, but there were big rule changes after 1996 and the really crazy stuff was banned.


The old time racers have occasionally talked about doping in the 50's and 60's. If there was a group of guys out front, at some point they would be given a special red water bottle for the end of the race. Probably amphetamines or something like that. When asked if he thought it was cheating one of them said "why? we were all getting the same thing." More common in big races and far more common in the 60's as team cars became more common.

That began to change when Tom Simpson died during the 67 tour, having taken amphetamines and drinking brandy earlier in the stage. That prompted a move towards testing.

Of course in the 80's they couldn't test for much and the fashionable thing was blood doping to raise hematocrit levels. The limit was a score of 50, and riders would often avoid the "vampires" -what they called the testers for an hour or two. And sometimes they would get a pass on something I've heard of the test official coming to a team tent and telling them "you're ok, 49.9 for everyone"

Things have changed so much.

They're now the most tested athletes. Random testing during races, but everyone tested sometime during a big race. Urine test nearly daily, and urine and blood for stage winners. Off season they have to report exactly where they will be with who and doing what. And if there's a change they have to file a form in advance. If the form is in late it may betaken as a positive test. If they can't be found for the surprise random offseason test that they have like 24 hours to show up for it's counted as a positive result.
And the actual testing covers a wide array of stuff, with zero tolerance and detection down to silly levels. And so many things can be found. Cough medecine, most vitamin supplements, and as we've just seen recently if the beef was raised with growth hormones as most is they'll find that too.

Imagine the MLB players accepting a program like that!

And still they catch guys cheating.

(And dying, the 90's was a big time for EPO, but a large slow heart with thickened blood from EPO led to a few heart attacks and strokes from clots developing, usually while the cyclist slept. )

Steve B
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:20 PM
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Cycling is the one sport where the endurance of the athletes amazes me, doped up or not. I really enjoy watching the end of the mountain stages.
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  #9  
Old 06-20-2012, 01:45 AM
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I agree. Amazing endurance athletes.

I remember reading an article about Greg Lemond. During training he biked so much he had to drink Coca Cola and eat cookies along the way to just to retain his weight.

Last edited by drc; 06-20-2012 at 01:46 AM.
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  #10  
Old 06-20-2012, 12:59 PM
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The figure I've heard for Track events like pursuit or team pursuit is 18,000 calories during a full day of competition.

There's a movie of the Race Across America- west coast to east with as many or as few breaks as you want- where the two competitiors were fairly close Pete Penseyres had a special diet of tofu and sprouts, John Howard was having the support crew drive ahead to truck stops for twinkies and big macs. Howard won. When he was asked later about the horrible diet he said you couldn't make the ride without being in great shape, and what was needed was Big quick calories.

The other one I was impressed by was Francesco Moser doing some early physiological testing. Maxed out every test the docs had and wasn't really working hard. On tests that had driven soccer players and runners to near collapse(over an hour on the three steps thing with only a modest increase in heart rate.). He came back with a bike and ran over an hour with a pulse around 180-185 and a max close to 200. Recovery time was getting back to 140 between the bike and chair, back to his resting of 35bpm in under 10 minutes. He was insanely fit,a bit of a physical oddity and probably doping. Hard to tell which had the most effect. Other top cyclists have an abnormal lung volume and the stuff used at the time helped the blood absorb oxygen.

Steve B
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  #11  
Old 06-21-2012, 06:43 AM
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would be surprised if ANY of the cyclists AREN'T cheating in some form.........PED.......Blood transfusions.....something. Just hard to believe results.............
in MOST sports anymore. The money is just too strong for the high performers to believe any results anymore.....
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  #12  
Old 06-21-2012, 06:00 PM
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The money isn't that big in cycling.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121693264451182277.html

4 million for the best paid guy, and lots of good riders under a million. And some of the guys that basically are there to lug waterbottles around and give up their bike if the main guy needs one quick make as little as 45,000.

I know a guy that collects race worn jerseys and buys them from the riders paying before the race and collecting after. He gets big names for $500-1000. Like the guys making over a million.
When he was asked how much it would cost to get one of the domestiques jerseys he said "most of those guys might just strip naked on the spot for fifty bucks"

And the stuff he was buying in europe was incredible. They've caught on now and the prices are more realistic, but still cheap compared to baseball stuff.
He got the flag that was on the back of the car to start the tour every year from something like 1910 till WWII for about 12 thousand. Much less for world championship trophies and stuff like that.

Steve B
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:31 AM
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As a five year + cancer survivor myself it is sad for me to see someone who is so upfront in the fight against cancer get caught up in a scandal like this.
His organization has done so much good and now it seems his personal scandals will probably affect his organizations work.
SAD.
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  #14  
Old 06-23-2012, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon View Post
As a five year + cancer survivor myself it is sad for me to see someone who is so upfront in the fight against cancer get caught up in a scandal like this.
His organization has done so much good and now it seems his personal scandals will probably affect his organizations work.
SAD.
Damn, that didn't even come to mind reading the article.

Very sad if it does affect his organization, like him or not he's done a ton of good things.

Steve B
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