Death Penalty for Penn State?

[skooter]

It's a tough call, but I'd say yes.

[novakjr]

Sadly, I agree. Temporarily, at least, and only football. I'd hate to see all the hard work of the other programs suffer because a a blind eye was turned to a sicko in the football program. But then again that opinion may be biased, because I'm a fan of Cael Sanderson and the top-notch wrestling program that he's built there.

It's easy to say that something like this won't happen again, especially given the fact that the school has been changed forever because of this, and will be under constant watch and scrutiny...

But some time away, could give everyone a chance to re-set, re-focus and create a new set of standards and rebuild a new image for the school. Start from scratch, and work to put all of this behind them, before they can move on.

[barrysloate]

Shut the football program down. The only thing people understand is money, that's why these horrific crimes were allowed to take place. Football was a cash cow and nobody wanted to spoil a good thing. Let the university lose a couple of hundred million dollars and let it be a lesson to anyone who allows crimes such as these to happen.

[drc]

What Barry said has some truth. They did their deeds for $$$, so a punishment causing financial pain might be appropriate. Something would be wrong if they were able to just keep the football gravy train going.

And it's fair to assume that other big schools would be willing to hush up problems to 'protect the brand' and the $$$.

Except my alma matter. They're clean.

[nolemmings]

oops--double post

[nolemmings]

If I were PSU, I'd consider offering up some serious self-policing and punishment.

I'm likely in the minority, but I would not sanction PSU at this time if I were the NCAA. Its effect as precedent and the scope of the NCAA's powers should be given serious thought before proceeding.

First, there is the standard argument that the ones most hurt by the death penalty or any severe sanction are the athletes themselves, who had nothing to do with any of this, apparently at any time. Second, I do not believe that severe sanctions are needed as an additional deterrent. The bad actors here are facing loss of liberty, career ruination and public scorn for life (and beyond in Paterno's case), as well as civil litigation. The institution itself faces not only humiliation but likely hundreds of millions of dollars in lawsuit or settlement payments. Do you really think that someone presented with even a remotely similar situation in the future will be more concerned about football program sanctions than these punishments already in place?

It is easy to want to pile on all that is Penn State right now, and to a large extent it is probably justified. People are rightfully outraged. Still, the NCAA should be careful where it starts drawing lines. What if, for example, the SOB who opened fire at Virginia Tech and who killed dozens had been a promising linebacker whose unstable and/or homicidal tendencies had been brought to some coach's and administrator's attention? Would the potential wrongful death actions and prospect of criminal charges for cover-up or non-reporting be insufficient--would we insist that the football program be shut down as well to punish the institution? What if there's an off-campus rape by some football player who had been constantly pulled out of trouble by assistant coaches or the head guy and whose Dean or President had agreed that the coach could handle it internally--bye bye program? I'm not saying that some punishment might not be appropriate in these instances, but I am suggesting that this be looked at long and hard by the NCAA before it starts to hand out punitive measures where there are already specific and in my view adequate systems in place. Penn State will get what it deserves, IMO, without shutting down the football program.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Shut the football program down. The only thing people understand is money, that's why these horrific crimes were allowed to take place. Football was a cash cow and nobody wanted to spoil a good thing. Let the university lose a couple of hundred million dollars and let it be a lesson to anyone who allows crimes such as these to happen.

I agree, but shutting down Penn St.'s football will not stop $-related NCAA crimes/violations/etc. The SMU death penalty proved that.

What happened at Penn State was a horrible aberration that as far as I'm aware, is one-of-a-kind as it relates to college football and involvement of school officials. All the bad press will keep this from happening again, but anyone involved should still be fired - they got rid of Paterno to protect their program, but now they need to take it a step further.

[nolemmings]

One other point, for those who would say this is so very much worse than Reggie Bush's parents receiving benefits while he was at USC or when SMU players were paid by boosters. Why severe sanctions there--including a "death penalty"--and none or less here?

The NCAA is charged, I would say primarily or at least fundamentally, with upholding the integrity of the game and the amateur status of the athletes. We can all complain that it does so unevenly or heavy-handedly, but no agency has more interest in upholding those goals, which frankly aren't so societal that anyone else is going to get involved or perhaps even care. In short, it is the NCAA's job to make sure everyone is participating on a level field, and to mete out punishment when it discovers that someone is "cheating". Here, the integrity of the sport is not really at issue, or at least not directly so, nor is the status of any athletes, and there are plenty of other institutions and mechanisms to protect against and punish what has happened. It is true that the NCAA also has a vested interest in insisting upon the integrity of its coaches and participating institutions, if only to protect its product, but it need not be the lead watchdog in this arena, for again, there are others who are more experienced and better equipped to deal with the kind of criminal conduct that occurred at PSU.

[travrosty]

becaue paterno is dead and in those other instances, they at least had something to do with players in one way or another, this had nothing to do with any player and to punish players by instituting a death penalty wouldnt be as fair as it was in those other circumstances. but of course it shouldnt be swept under the rug, there should be some penalties, but for the upper management that let it happen, not the football team. neither paterno or sandusky is affiliated with the team anymore. the team will already suffer just by recruiting difficulties and the stigma that is now associated with the name penn state football.

[barrysloate]

Todd- one point where I will disagree is that Sandusky wasn't some disgruntled member of the football team, he was the assistant coach and as such he had quite a bit of power. And he used that power to entice these young boys into the situations they found themselves in, and then he assaulted them. Using such power to sexually molest youngs boys is a heinous crime. Members of the football program, most prominently Joe Paterno, knew what was going on, and not only did they do nothing to stop it, they went to great lengths to hide it. I think that puts Penn State in line for an absolutely humongous penalty, and the only punishment anybody ever really understands is loss of money. I wouldn't care if the school lost so much money it went bankrupt. F**k them, it's exactly what they deserve. If I were a parent and my child was thinking of going to Penn State right now I would forbid it. I think shutting down the program, causing the university untold financial hardship, is the minimum of what needs to be done. Punishment should also include firing a number of people in high places (they can work out who is most responsible).

[alanu]

I don't think the football program deserves the death penalty, but I think they deserve harsher sanctions than USC recently received, which would included bans from post season play and scholarship limitations.

Just because Penn State will suffer due to the publicity of the scandal, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't receive some pretty harsh sanctions from the NCAA.

[drc]

Duly note that didn't say I was for the death penalty. I don't have an opinion either way on that at this time.

One thing is for a practical purposes, the NCAA has to have harsh penalties. If they don't a future offending university will use that as a marker and say "It would be unfair for us to get harsh punishment, because Penn State didn't."

Barry went to schools that had crappy sports teams, so we shouldn't go by his opinions

One last thing. If you look at a university from afar-- especially if through ESPN et al lenses-- a sports team seems to dominate the university more than it really does. Up close, you see all the other stuff. I live in Seattle and while U of Washinton football is always big, the local newspapers regularly focus on all aspects of the university, including the forestry department and medical schools. So I'm sure Penn State isn't 80% football team, 20 percent academics. In fact, I think it's a pretty good state school and there are a lot of people there who don't really care about the football team.

A neat thing about being a nerd in Seattle, is there's a 24 hour U of Washington channel where they show lectures from all departments. I've watched brain surgery to computer science to abnormal psychology. And intermingled in there they will have a football coach press conference.

[barrysloate]

Boston University were the NCAA hockey champions my freshman year.

[nolemmings]

One thing is for a practical purposes, the NCAA has to have harsh penalties. If they don't a future offending university will use that as a marker and say "It would be unfair for us to get harsh punishment, because Penn State didn't."

This is one reason why I'm not certain any sanctions are appropriate. What happened at Penn State is so far beyond the pale that the only NCAA punishment suitable would be the death penalty, and I do not think that proper. If a university engages in wholesale test score cheating, illegal booster payments and steroid promotion for its athletes and gets the death penalty, they will always be able to say "geez our sins aren't nearly as heinous as allowing little boys to be raped, how come Penn State got less than what we did?"-- if in fact something less is imposed.

David I agree that there is so much else done at a university that serves the good and often goes unnoticed. The impact of the likely $100M-$200M or more in settlements with the victims here is pretty severe and will adversely affect the university top to bottom. I'm not convinced at this point that more needs to be done.

[drc]

I went to the University of Wisconsin, which is a football powerhouse now but entirely sucked while I was there.

And, for Barry, they won the NCAA Hockey Championship when I was a senior.

[barrysloate]

David- I just googled the team and discovered BU did not win in 1970; funny how my memory failed me. But they did win in 1972, my last year there.

[drc]

I should add that I respect but entirely disagree with Todd's conclusion. When the head coach, athletic director, university president and head of the university police together aid and shield felony level crimes over a multi year period by a former coach (with position and I believe office at the university), and commit their own crimes in the process, this deserves very substantial punishment. Re-reading what I just wrote, it sure sounds like something that might deserve a NCAA death penalty.

The significant difference with SMU is they were repeatedly warned and penalized for acts they simply continued to do. Penn State wasn't given earlier NCAA warning. However ad of course, one shouldn't need NCAA warning to stop shielding a child rapist. That they weren't told to stop by the NCAA is a more than feeble excuse at best.

Another interesting aspect is before the brouhaha, SMU had been trying to better its university reputation and academic standing. Administrators wanted to increase academic standards for athletes and some even threatened to drop football if it got in the way of the school's academic mission. Many at the school thought football and it's lax academics and unethical behavior hurt the university. Thus, when the NCAA considered the final punishment, many at the university were already not adverse to football team punishment and dropping the program had already been considered. In short, the school was not as tied to football as you might think.

[autograf]

Anything they do will punish the players for something THEY didn't do and weren't involved in. Post season bans and scholarship losses will hurt the effectiveness of the players and the team. Since that's the case, they should effect the death penalty for the program. Shutter it for five years. Allow the existing and committed players to transfer immediately to other programs at any level of play and start over in 2017.

[barrysloate]

There was an op-ed piece in the N.Y. Times this morning by Joe Nocera, who has recently been writing regularly about problems with the N.C.A.A. He recommends the "death penalty" for Penn State. There is always going to be collateral damage in these cases; unfortunately it will be the players who did nothing wrong.