O-Pee-Chee, shaggy edges and my dwindling sanity...

[YazFenway08]

A question for the o-pee-chee experts here...

I like vintage o-pee-chee baseball cards and, as I have posted elsewhere on net54, I am just starting to dabble in graded cards.

my understanding of the "grading process" is that the age and genesis of a particular card is not taken into account by the grader...so for example, a '33 Goudey Ruth with badly rounded corners doesn't get graded a "7" just because its older, etc.

so, when I look at many o-pee-chee examples, particularly from the 70s, in slabs...they have that normal/typical rough-cut edge thing gong on...like they were cut from sheets with a chain saw. Cards that if they were "regular" topps i would never even give a second look at buying. Yet these cards seem to regularly get "7"s and "8"s. To me, that just arent near-mint

not trying to start another pro/con thread on third-party grading...I just don't understand this allowance in the grading. full disclosure...I am a collector that has always focused on edges, corners and no creasing over centering and print defects...so it is highly probable that I still don't understand the grading criteria very well even after reading the various TPG sites.

thanks for looking...and sorry as usual for the rambling..

Mike

[irv]

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

A question for the o-pee-chee experts here...

I like vintage o-pee-chee baseball cards and, as I have posted elsewhere on net54, I am just starting to dabble in graded cards.

my understanding of the "grading process" is that the age and genesis of a particular card is not taken into account by the grader...so for example, a '33 Goudey Ruth with badly rounded corners doesn't get graded a "7" just because its older, etc.

so, when I look at many o-pee-chee examples, particularly from the 70s, in slabs...they have that normal/typical rough-cut edge thing gong on...like they were cut from sheets with a chain saw. Cards that if they were "regular" topps i would never even give a second look at buying. Yet these cards seem to regularly get "7"s and "8"s. To me, that just arent near-mint

not trying to start another pro/con thread on third-party grading...I just don't understand this allowance in the grading. full disclosure...I am a collector that has always focused on edges, corners and no creasing over centering and print defects...so it is highly probable that I still don't understand the grading criteria very well even after reading the various TPG sites.

thanks for looking...and sorry as usual for the rambling..

Mike

The OPC rough cut is accepted by the 3rd party graders and no deduction in points is given because of that.
Not trying to be difficult, but if you don't like the OPC rough cuts then your only choice is to stick with the Topps copies.

I collect hockey cards as well but will only purchase OPC cards as I prefer the rough cuts even though not all are equal when it comes to them. Some are more pronounced than others.

[4reals]

I feel what you’re putting down. Exceptions shouldn’t be made for certain releases. Grading continuity and consistency should be paramount across all spectrums. If that means 6s, 7s and 8s become more scarce because of their rough cut nature, so be it. It just shifts the premium to lower grades and the market adjusts. Then I could see the price of uncut sheets skyrocket for collectors trying to cut their own high grades.


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[maniac_73]

The whole purpose of grading is to rate the card as close to factory pristine condition as possible. OPC used a wire cut process which leads to "jagged edges". This is a feature of the card and taken into account. A smooth edge opc would be altered as thats not how they come from factory and pulled from packs.

[irv]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

The whole purpose of grading is to rate the card as close to factory pristine condition as possible. OPC used a wire cut process which leads to "jagged edges". This is a feature of the card and taken into account. A smooth edge opc would be altered as thats not how they come from factory and pulled from packs.

I always believed the same but Samosa explained it in the Hockey thread. The machine was actually called a slitter machine, I believe?

This was discussed in this podcast that he also posted. In OPC's haste to get cards to market to keep up with demand, the blades weren't always sharpened as often as they should have been.
I don't remember where this is talked about in this long video/podcast but it is and pics of it are also shown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apwx...portsCardsLive

[steve B]

What Maniac and Irv said.

With edges etc, it's more about them being "as manufactured" OPC just didn't do smooth cuts. That's as much a product of the cardstock used as it is the slitter knives.

To not accept that rough factory edge would be odd. Sort of like downgrading a 51 Topps for having round corners and perforations.

Now if the typical factory edge was perfect, then a rough one could be seen as a manufacturing flaw and graded lower.

[4reals]

I call bull crap on that. Just because it came from the factory that way and they didn’t have as good of quality control or they didn’t maintenance the blades on their cutting equipment shouldn’t lead to an exception to the rule. If a card is miscut or off center it gets dinged on grading even though “it was manufactured” that way. Edges should be looked at the same way. Sorry, not budging on this one.


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[YazFenway08]

as always, I appreciate all the comments. I had not been thinking in terms of accepted factory pre-conditions with the o-pee-chee cards. And it explains a lot of the variability I am seeing with the cards and their respective gradings

and in answer to one of the posts...I do like the cards with the imperfections and all...I just wanted to make sure that if I decided to pay a premium for a graded one, I should better understand the dynamic. I had already become more comfortable with paste on the back of venezuelans and staining on same candy issues....now I understand o-pee chee better

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 4reals

I call bull crap on that. Just because it came from the factory that way and they didn’t have as good of quality control or they didn’t maintenance the blades on their cutting equipment shouldn’t lead to an exception to the rule. If a card is miscut or off center it gets dinged on grading even though “it was manufactured” that way. Edges should be looked at the same way. Sorry, not budging on this one.


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Good luck finding OPC cards with perfect edges that aren't trimmed.

[JLange]

This one is enroute - 1974 OPC Oscar Gamble, with a super shaggy edge!

[bobsbbcards]

I heart shaggy-edged OPC's.

[horzverti]

Originally Posted by bobsbbcards

I heart shaggy-edged OPC's.

Me too.

[chalupacollects]

eh, sanity is overrated...

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by irv

I always believed the same but Samosa explained it in the Hockey thread. The machine was actually called a slitter machine, I believe?

This was discussed in this podcast that he also posted. In OPC's haste to get cards to market to keep up with demand, the blades weren't always sharpened as often as they should have been.
I don't remember where this is talked about in this long video/podcast but it is and pics of it are also shown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apwx...portsCardsLive

Interesting, gotta check out that podcast thanks!

[JustinD]

I love opc, growing up in Michigan it was awesome when we would take a vacation to Toronto and I could come back with that coveted trade material.

I still value high grade opc at well over listed value due to it not existing, rough cut or not. I have several 10s in my Parrish collection that are or were the only in existence at one time and cost well less than Topps that had many multiples more. If you are planning on that route, my only advice is this; buy it when you see it because you won’t again and be prepared to really wait between finds.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I love opc, growing up in Michigan it was awesome when we would take a vacation to Toronto and I could come back with that coveted trade material.

I still value high grade opc at well over listed value due to it not existing, rough cut or not. I have several 10s in my Parrish collection that are or were the only in existence at one time and cost well less than Topps that had many multiples more. If you are planning on that route, my only advice is this; buy it when you see it because you won’t again and be prepared to really wait between finds.

Its funny because growing up in Canada I was always annoyed that we could only get OPC as I knew the name Topps lol

[gustomania]

Love OPC and shaggy edges, just love that about OPC

[irv]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

Interesting, gotta check out that podcast thanks!

You're welcome.

They start talking about it right before the 15 minute mark, maybe a bit before as someone asks questions about it.

[glynparson]

Rough cuts are not downgraded on regular topps cards either. This statement is not accurate. You may pass on them but it’s not downgraded by either PSA or sgc. In fact I wouldn’t buy most opc issues with a smooth cut as they would be non factory cuts in most cases. A grader must take into account how a card was produced. It is why a post cereal card can be hand cut and still get. A numerical grade but a topps regular issue card can not be.

[steve B]

OPCs haste getting cards released seems odd to me.

In 1978 my family took a camping trip across the country, with a couple bits in Canada.
In the gift shop on the Canadian side of Glacier national park, they had cards! but they were 1977s.
When I mentioned that it was cool they had last years cards, the clerk was confused. "last years? But we just go those"

OPC may have been in a hurry, but their distributors were not.

[steve B]

duplicate deleted

[Piquettethecat]

Actually it isn't true they used a wire cut, at least according to the guy that owned the company. A fellow named Gary Koreen owned the company from 1980 until the mid-1990s. He started working there in the 1960s, and lives in the city where I am. I was introduced and had the good fortune to chat with him at length about the card business. He says they used the same cutting process as Topps, but didn't sharpen the blades regularly. That would explain why some years -- 1969 OPC hockey, for instance -- don't have rough edges and why there are different levels of rough edges within the same year.

Originally Posted by maniac_73

The whole purpose of grading is to rate the card as close to factory pristine condition as possible. OPC used a wire cut process which leads to "jagged edges". This is a feature of the card and taken into account. A smooth edge opc would be altered as thats not how they come from factory and pulled from packs.

[Piquettethecat]

One other note -- apparently all hockey was printed in about six weeks between mid-Nov and Christmas, with the intent to distribute it all starting Jan. 2. The conversation with Mr. Koreen was very revealing.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Piquettethecat

... That would explain why some years -- 1969 OPC hockey, for instance -- don't have rough edges and why there are different levels of rough edges within the same year.

100% accurate. I am of an age where my OPC hockey collection as a kid ranged from 1967 to 1972. I still have the cards I purchased from nickel and dime packs. While I've upgraded a few cards, my sets today contain 95% to 100% of the same cards I purchased as a boy.

When I look at those sets, I do not have many OPC rough cuts. When I got back into collecting in 1990, I noticed the sets from after my youth seemed to have way more rough cuts than my sets as a kid. And I can guarantee I've never trimmed any of those cards.

This is not a scientific experiment with accurate metrics, just one guys observations.

One other note... I also have many cards I pulled from packs that are noticeably different sizes. I recall noticing that as a kid.

[OPC Baseball Obsessed]

[QUOTE=YazFenway08;2046457]A question for the o-pee-chee experts here...

I like vintage o-pee-chee baseball cards and, as I have posted elsewhere on net54, I am just starting to dabble in graded cards.

my understanding of the "grading process" is that the age and genesis of a particular card is not taken into account by the grader...so for example, a '33 Goudey Ruth with badly rounded corners doesn't get graded a "7" just because its older, etc.

so, when I look at many o-pee-chee examples, particularly from the 70s, in slabs...they have that normal/typical rough-cut edge thing gong on...like they were cut from sheets with a chain saw. Cards that if they were "regular" topps i would never even give a second look at buying. Yet these cards seem to regularly get "7"s and "8"s. To me, that just arent near-mint

not trying to start another pro/con thread on third-party grading...I just don't understand this allowance in the grading. full disclosure...I am a collector that has always focused on edges, corners and no creasing over centering and print defects...so it is highly probable that I still don't understand the grading criteria very well even after reading the various TPG sites.

thanks for looking...and sorry as usual for the rambling.."

ANSWER:

I know this thread is old but this same discussion came up between me and my very knowledgeable Heritage Auctions Rep. I am selling an extensive vintage OPC graded star card collection that includes some of the highest grades given on some. Others, surprisingly, have some submissions graded higher. I've dealt in these for 25 years and they can take you to a dark, dark place......lol

Fenway you have hit on the big mystery. As ya'll may know, these were manufactured in a factory in London, Ontario Canada. At times quality assurance was good. Other times not. Miscutting was common. But certain sets seem beset by the "soft edges" whereby the side (usually right edge, or bottom of a horizontal card) is soft cut. Unsharpened sheet cutter is culprit.
1972, 1973, 1975 and 1976 cards seem most affected.

From my experiences, BVG punishes this condition by 1.5 grades, if the correlative PSA grade is the constant. One example is a 1973 Schmidt PSA 9 that was featured online recently. It had a soft bottom edge that touched the grading border in places. Otherwise beautuful card. Having opened unopened boxes and filed through probably thousands of the 65-76 singles, the soft edges dont bother me much.

Another example is the infamous 1971 Roberto Clemente #630. I have personally seen and examined around 10 of them. I own 2, one graded PSA 8 (oc). They all have had this "pin line" inside where the right edge border would be that looks like a light cutting line drawn on the card. Worse, its not straight. The card is punishingly hard to find at all, much less with centering required by the EX-MT+ (6.5) grade.

My Clemente is 8 (oc) with the line, and there is a decent amount of PSA graded examples of this rare gem (44). But all PSA 8 cards received a qualifier. There are five (5) PSA 7s registered, 3 are qualified.

If you have access to the BGS reports, which I do not, look at those grades. It will give you a good idea how these two companies grade these manufacturing defects that seem to apply to all copies of particular cards. However, the Schmidt does not qualify as one. I am selling a PSA 8 with a very sharp strong edge in Heritage's Catalog Auction for May. Thus, it appears PSA does not lower grades for the soft edges, within tolerances, I am sure.

One thing is for sure, the values of vintage graded stars is about to explode. With a production rate between 1-5% and general unavailability of them in the states until the internet age, a steep shift upward in pricing on these is coming. The grading percentages for OPC stars for the 1965-1976 era reflect about 2% overall for the same year topps cards.

The first group of auctions can be found here: https://www.ha.com/c/search.zx?saleN...ve-notice&FC=0

In the May catalog auction you will find a 1971 Ryan BVG 8, 1974 Hank Aaron #1 BVG 9, and several other of these rare cards in high grade.

[Exhibitman]

True factory rough cuts could be found on some Topps too. I once bought a childhood collection from an older gentleman who had a lot of 1954 Topps cards and many of them, untouched in 50 years, had one or more rougher edges. They graded 8s and 9s from PSA. That was even something I used to look for when shuffling through Topps products of the era.

OPCs have those great rough cuts even in the nicest cards. I haven't seen those downgraded either. The soft corners are a definite issue. I've got quite a few raw OPCs that are pack-fresh but with those rough yet soft corners.

[JollyElm]

Picked up this absolutely perfect 1972 Topps Jim Palmer with a 'Fuzz Cut' recently...

1972palmerroughcut.jpg

[Exhibitman]

Crispy OPC edges at their best

[toppcat]

I like the fuzz, always have.

[Eric72]

To me, the rough cuts signal a card is much more likely to be unaltered