Question for Dealers/Show Vendors

[yanks87]

General question for the community. I am currently planning a west coast event, and hoping for it to feature a card show. Is there a standard table fee for larger shows (150+ dealers)? There will be other things going on at the event, so foot traffic would be high, and the venue is a large one. Sorry for the vague terms, still working out the details on this end, targeting 2022.

While I am at it, is there anything that the community would like to see at a new card show? I have bounced around to shows over the last year, and have a running list of things I would like to see but the floor is open for others to chime in.

Any general opinions, thoughts, or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!

[ocjack]

Can you tease a location?

[notfast]

I’m curious what kind of “event” would have 150 card show tables? That’s fairly large for a “new” show.

[yanks87]

I have to keep things close to vest for now, but I can say west coast, to start, and it is a new format, new approach.

[Exhibitman]

Oh, brother, are you in for some pain! I co-promoted three shows in Los Angeles several years ago. It is a ton of work and you are virtually guaranteed to lose money for the first few shows at least.

You have it all backwards. The table fee is the last thing to set. Get your back-end paperwork done first: contracts, business licenses and insurance, etc. if working with partners, draft a comprehensive venture agreement. Find your venue. A good venue will know and will be able to tell you exactly how many tables you can handle in the space. Evaluate parking and load-in/load-out conditions and requirements, whether the venue allows previous day set up, whether the venue supplies tables, cloths, etc., as part of the fee or extra, or whether you will have to purchase materials and/or contract with outside event furnishing vendor(s) to provide them. If the latter, research a vendor list and costs/terms. Decide whether to offer dealers incentives for multiple-table reservations. Determine whether you will need to comp tables to certain vendors, like a TPG, and if so try to negotiate co-promotion activities in return through their platforms. Cost out and then decide whether it makes sense to hold a multiple day event or a single day event. Decide whether you want to offer free admission (hint: for a new show, you do). Determine your marketing strategy and budget. Sit down and do a spreadsheet of all costs and decide how many shows to hold over the lifespan of some of the fixed costs (like insurance, which can be purchased per event or per time period). When you have all of the data then you can back into the table fees.

I would also strongly suggest not having guests. They are hugely expensive and do not really add anything to the admissions rate; people are already starved for card shows anyway.

[ocjack]

And all along I thought you just needed to rent a banquet room and tables at the local Holiday Inn and have everyone bring their own bedsheets to cover the tables. lol

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ocjack

And all along I thought you just needed to rent a banquet room and tables at the local Holiday Inn and have everyone bring their own bedsheets to cover the tables. lol

"You misunderstand me. Business should be conducted in a business-like manner."

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Oh, brother, are you in for some pain! I co-promoted three shows in Los Angeles several years ago. It is a ton of work and you are virtually guaranteed to lose money for the first few shows at least.

You have it all backwards. The table fee is the last thing to set. Get your back-end paperwork done first: contracts, business licenses and insurance, etc. if working with partners, draft a comprehensive venture agreement. Find your venue. A good venue will know and will be able to tell you exactly how many tables you can handle in the space. Evaluate parking and load-in/load-out conditions and requirements, whether the venue allows previous day set up, whether the venue supplies tables, cloths, etc., as part of the fee or extra, or whether you will have to purchase materials and/or contract with outside event furnishing vendor(s) to provide them. If the latter, research a vendor list and costs/terms. Decide whether to offer dealers incentives for multiple-table reservations. Determine whether you will need to comp tables to certain vendors, like a TPG, and if so try to negotiate co-promotion activities in return through their platforms. Cost out and then decide whether it makes sense to hold a multiple day event or a single day event. Decide whether you want to offer free admission (hint: for a new show, you do). Determine your marketing strategy and budget. Sit down and do a spreadsheet of all costs and decide how many shows to hold over the lifespan of some of the fixed costs (like insurance, which can be purchased per event or per time period). When you have all of the data then you can back into the table fees.

I would also strongly suggest not having guests. They are hugely expensive and do not really add anything to the admissions rate; people are already starved for card shows anyway.

I hear you, I have been in event design for 20 years now, and we are checking all blindspots on this one. It's been a while since I showed at a card show and I know table prices have changed since the 90's. I just wanted to get a gauge from some of the dealers/auction house guys on the board what the going table rate currently is. We are currently filling out those costing spreadsheets and figuring out where we need to be to not LOSE too much money, but if the concept plays, that might be a win too.

[Casey2296]

A reporter once asked a rancher in Montana who had just won 2 million in the lottery what he was going to do with his new found gains.

The Montana rancher pondered the question for a bit and answered;

"I think I'll just keep ranching until it's all gone..."

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I've promoted two shows. One a down and dirty little show at a fire hall that made a little money, the other one a large show at a resort in the Poconos with autograph guests that lost almost $7,000. The dealers and attendees were generally very happy so it wasn't a "failure" but man oh man...

I learned a ton from the one that lost money and think I could fix most of the problems, but it was so much work and would probably take at LEAST as long as the auction to become profitable. It definitely instilled in me a greater respect for the guys who promote really good shows!

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I've promoted two shows. One a down and dirty little show at a fire hall that made a little money, the other one a large show at a resort in the Poconos with autograph guests that lost almost $7,000. The dealers and attendees were generally very happy so it wasn't a "failure" but man oh man...

I learned a ton from the one that lost money and think I could fix most of the problems, but it was so much work and would probably take at LEAST as long as the auction to become profitable. It definitely instilled in me a greater respect for the guys who promote really good shows!

Great insights, thanks for sharing!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Not sure how insightful I was, just sharing a story. Good luck!

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Not sure how insightful I was, just sharing a story. Good luck!

Yours and the other post about signers at a show validate a bunch of things that I have been seeing in my research of everything. It certainly makes it easier to not have a show predicated on autographs. I have never enjoyed autographs (Mostly because Jim Eppard, my first pro signature, misspelled my name "To Brain"..... scarred for life), but I didn't want to project my personal feelings on this. I appreciate your candor.

thanks again

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

The big lesson I learned on autographs is don't count on sales to make your money, come with inventory to get signed and sell yourself later, that's the only way autograph guests are a money maker. We had a couple hundred photos to sell at the show that we got signed but it wasn't nearly enough to get to even. We simply didn't realize that the money is made on the after market, not at the show.

Now there's some insight!

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

The big lesson I learned on autographs is don't count on sales to make your money, come with inventory to get signed and sell yourself later, that's the only way autograph guests are a money maker. We had a couple hundred photos to sell at the show that we got signed but it wasn't nearly enough to get to even. We simply didn't realize that the money is made on the after market, not at the show.

Now there's some insight!

Golden, thank you Scott.

[JollyElm]

Lighting, lighting, lighting.
Almost every single show I've attended has very poor lighting. I don't know if it's the fluorescent bulbs thing, or the size of these pseudo-gymnasiums, or something else, but I'm constantly having to walk to an open door or a window to be able to examine a card fully in the sunlight. And my eyesight is fine, so it's not just me. It would be great going through the cards at someone's table and being able to see everything perfectly fine. Most larger venues are lit from (way up) above, so that's the origin of the problem. One show I went to was tantamount to being in an office building with light streaming in from everywhere via the windows. That was frickin' beautiful.

Gathering area.
If there's room, consider having an area dedicated to people chatting away and making trades or possibly casual sales. Not as a way to 'compete' with the paying vendors, but as a way to enhance the experience. People love to show off their acquisitions, so it would be a nice break from the show to sit down for a bit and have a good time talking with fellow collectors. (Oh, and make sure this 'Trade Zone' is separate from the dining area.)

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Lighting, lighting, lighting.
Almost every single show I've attended has very poor lighting. I don't know if it's the fluorescent bulbs thing, or the size of these pseudo-gymnasiums, or something else, but I'm constantly having to walk to an open door or a window to be able to examine a card fully in the sunlight. And my eyesight is fine, so it's not just me. It would be great going through the cards at someone's table and being able to see everything perfectly fine. Most larger venues are lit from (way up) above, so that's the origin of the problem. One show I went to was tantamount to being in an office building with light streaming in from everywhere via the windows. That was frickin' beautiful.

TOO TRUE. It was the one major complaint with my big show. Never even thought about it when they showed me the room we were using until the day of the show and I kept asking them to turn the lights up!

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Lighting, lighting, lighting.
Almost every single show I've attended has very poor lighting. I don't know if it's the fluorescent bulbs thing, or the size of these pseudo-gymnasiums, or something else, but I'm constantly having to walk to an open door or a window to be able to examine a card fully in the sunlight. And my eyesight is fine, so it's not just me. It would be great going through the cards at someone's table and being able to see everything perfectly fine. Most larger venues are lit from (way up) above, so that's the origin of the problem. One show I went to was tantamount to being in an office building with light streaming in from everywhere via the windows. That was frickin' beautiful.

Gathering area.
If there's room, consider having an area dedicated to people chatting away and making trades or possibly casual sales. Not as a way to 'compete' with the paying vendors, but as a way to enhance the experience. People love to show off their acquisitions, so it would be a nice break from the show to sit down for a bit and have a good time talking with fellow collectors. (Oh, and make sure this 'Trade Zone' is separate from the dining area.)

Great call on the trading space. The venue we are locked in with has great lighting, and lots of space, so think we can address both of your call outs. Thank you!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

TOO TRUE. It was the one major complaint with my big show. Never even thought about it when they showed me the room we were using until the day of the show and I kept asking them to turn the lights up!

Yes, you cannot underestimate the importance of this. I have bought cards at the National in which the surfaces looked perfect, even upon very close inspection. When I arrived back at the hotel, I could clearly see wrinkles/creases that were not evident at the show. A real pisser!