Knickerbocker Photo

[SteveS]

Hi everybody! This is my first post here. I have been collecting for a long time. In 1979, at the age of 14, I was listed in "The Sports Collectors Bible" as one of the "World's Leading Hobbyists." I would like to get your opinion on this stereoview photograph I purchased on eBay. It was listed as just "Six Learned Gents," but I noticed immediately a great resemblance to members of the Knickerbockers, baseball's "first team." I have shown it to several baseball historians and the majority feel that it may very well be them (please note that John Thorn and Mark Fimoff have stated that they do not feel it's them; I'm not sure if that's because they don't feel there's a resemblance or the lack of provenance, but I certainly don't wish to bother them again with it if they are on this forum).

From my research, I believe that the photograph was taken in the 1840s, then used to make the stereoview in the 1850s. The players are clockwise from upper-left: Fraley C. Niebuhr, Charles H. Birney, Walter T. Avery, Doc Adams, William R. Wheaton, and Edward Anthony. I also include side-by-side comparisons with the known photos of those men (all but two -- Anthony and Wheaton -- from the 1862 Knickerbocker "Reunion" composite photo). I would appreciate greatly your opinion as to whether you see the resemblances and whether this could be a photograph of the Knickerbockers. I am not a mathematician, but it just seems as though the odds would be astronomical of six people looking that much alike and not being them (in fact I have run it through two different facial-match programs and all six come up as matches at levels of 80%-93%). I know how very knowledgeable you are on this forum, and I look forward to hearing what you think.

Steve Sussman

[Casey2296]

Welcome Steve.
If anybody can help you its some of the members here, the knowledge base is impressive. Just don't let them take you down the matching ear rabbit hole and you'll be OK.

[SteveS]

Thank you, Phil! I'm kind of surprised no one has chimed in yet. It doesn't even take any baseball or collecting expertise to render an opinion as to whether they look alike.

[jcmtiger]

I am not an expert, but there are experts on this site. But I see at least 4 possible matches. Joe

[SteveS]

Thank you, Joe!

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by SteveS

Thank you, Joe!

PS, been collecting since 1970’s also.

[bgar3]

Steve,
As an early base ball collector, I would like to see it be the Knickerbockers.
However, I don’t really see it. Having said that I am not the best at this, but have been helped by Mark Fimoff in the past and trust his judgment. I would be curious as to his reasoning. As for John Thorn, he has also been helpful to me, not on identifying people, but on historical matters, on which he is an expert. He has done extensive work on Doc Adams and Wheaton and I would also take his opinion over mine. I acknowledge I am no expert, but if I had to choose, I would go with their opinion absent some conclusive evidence to the contrary. To me, resemblance is not that.
Good luck, I really hope it is them and some further evidence turns up.

[SteveS]

Thank you for your response, bgar3! In this case, I'm not sure what evidence can be gathered other than the resemblances and the confirmation of that by objective facial-match programs. I read on this forum the fascinating back-and-forth regarding the purported Knickerbocker daguerreotype that was provided to the Hall of Fame by Alexander Cartwright's own grandson to be used to design his plaque, and even with that provenance it has been called into question. But I do see enough similarities here, including unique hairstyles and facial features, to believe that it's a match.

[Shoelessseb]

Like Steve said, what are the odds of having 6 men on the same photo with a possible match ? It means something. Nobody looks exactly the same 2 decades apart anyway.
We probably will never know for sure, but I like to think it’s them.
Enjoy your photo ! It’s a very interesting piece

[SteveS]

Thanks, Shoelessseb!

[smellthegum]

I actually see more of a resemblance between these two than the way you presented them. In particular, compare the hair style, mouth features, and wider face on the top two, and the high cheekbones, close set eyes, and what appears to be a cleft chin on the bottom.

Interesting conjecture and a very cool piece!

[SteveS]

Thanks, smellthegum! I will investigate that further. And your screen name just brought back memories of a freshly-opened pack of '74 Topps.

[Directly]

Originally Posted by bgar3

Steve,
As an early base ball collector, I would like to see it be the Knickerbockers.
However, I don’t really see it. Having said that I am not the best at this, but have been helped by Mark Fimoff in the past and trust his judgment. I would be curious as to his reasoning. As for John Thorn, he has also been helpful to me, not on identifying people, but on historical matters, on which he is an expert. He has done extensive work on Doc Adams and Wheaton and I would also take his opinion over mine. I acknowledge I am no expert, but if I had to choose, I would go with their opinion absent some conclusive evidence to the contrary. To me, resemblance is not that.
Good luck, I really hope it is them and some further evidence turns up.

If the EARS don't fit you have to Acquit--fortunately with my photo I didn't buy Marks ears theory.

[ramram]

My two cents:

That stereoview is from the 1860's or later. I can also say without a doubt though that it definitely is not an image taken of an earlier daguerrotype (which would have been the only photographic medium in use in the 1840's).

Rob M

[SteveS]

Rob, thank you for your input! Based on what I've read, the color of the card and its square corners would place the stereoview from the 1850s. Also, there were other photographic methods available in the 1840s that involved the use of negatives. One of the pioneers of that method was William Henry Fox Talbot. Edward Anthony was a pioneer of photography in America, and in 1847 he traveled to England and learned directly from Talbot how to make photographs from negatives. He later produced some of the earliest stereoviews available in the US. So it doesn't seem far-fetched that he would have tried out what he learned in England and taken a picture with his buddies, and then used the negative to make a stereoview a bit later.

[packs]

Quite a bit of balding in 12 years.

[ramram]

Originally Posted by SteveS

Rob, thank you for your input! Based on what I've read, the color of the card and its square corners would place the stereoview from the 1850s. Also, there were other photographic methods available in the 1840s that involved the use of negatives. One of the pioneers of that method was William Henry Fox Talbot. Edward Anthony was a pioneer of photography in America, and in 1847 he traveled to England and learned directly from Talbot how to make photographs from negatives. He later produced some of the earliest stereoviews available in the US. So it doesn't seem far-fetched that he would have tried out what he learned in England and taken a picture with his buddies, and then used the negative to make a stereoview a bit later.

Steve - Sorry, I do wish it were the Knickerbocker's but unfortunately, I stand by my statement. I've collected images from the 1800's for 30 years. I can guarantee it's not an image of an image taken in the 1840's. Hopefully some of the other image experts will chime in here as well.

Rob M

[tennisguy]

Originally Posted by ramram

Steve - Sorry, I do wish it were the Knickerbocker's but unfortunately, I stand by my statement. I've collected images from the 1800's for 30 years. I can guarantee it's not an image of an image taken in the 1840's. Hopefully some of the other image experts will chime in here as well.

Rob M

I agree Rob. Definitely from the 1860’s, and some facial structure from what I observe is off. I have been in the same situation with pieces in the past, and if there is any doubt the piece just won’t hold water.

Ryan

[SteveS]

Thanks for your opinions, Rob and Ryan!