the price of leaving a negative feedback on ebay

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Posted By: rob

Well, it was only a matter of time i guess. Let me ask you guys this question, here is the scenario. I sold a bunch of cards a few weeks back. After 4-5 days I sent out a reminder payment to the few people who had yet to pay, not unusual. After 8-9 days I had one person yet to pay, so I sent another e-mail. I then figured he might be out of town. I looked up his handle as bidder and saw he was bidding on cards during that time. In addition his feedback was about 40-50, not too high. So after 11 days, four e-mails and no contact I left him a negative. About 4-5 days later he tells me his partner bid on the card and that I left a hasty negaitve feedback and he would ultimately pay for the card, which he did. Then two weeks later he leaves me a negative as acting unfair and too quick.

Not sure what else I could do in this situation other than e-mail him and see if he was around by checking his bidding history. Perhaps I acted too hasty? not sure, but who has the time or energy to chase everyone down, I thought I made reasonable efforts to contact and clearly he had computer access.

Rob

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Posted By: David Hornish

I have to say I probably would have waited until the eBay grievance process was followed before leaving a negative since there is a huge chance for retribution such as you received. I think that the process takes seven days. I agree that the bidder deserved a negative and if the bid was placed by someone else, you may be entitled to petition eBay to have the negative comment removed but using the grievance process gives you more protection against that I think.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Just out of curiosity, what's your feedback rating? Is that your first NEG?

It's sad but true that people will protect their rating by not leaving NEGs on people that may deserve it.

In this case I think I'd have waited a little longer before leaving the NEG. Also, if you don't receive payment at all you can send file a non-paying claim to ebay and they wont charge you the final value fees for the auction. You can then relist the card again and sell it.

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Posted By: rob

My feedback is 78, so not that high either, and that is my first negative. Quite honestly, I acted "quickly" because he was bidding on other cards and I didnt want others to get screwed. He turned out to be a paying customer, but how was I to know.

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Posted By: steve f

The feedback system is flawed. 99.8% of the ebay populous will leave a retaliatory negative. As a seller, you may wish to cancel those sales -mutually agreed upon. You'll get your fees back and no harm no foul. Relist, after blocking that particular buyer.

You may be able to have that negative removed if both parties agree. Perhaps in a few weeks when things cool. Good luck

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Posted By: David Vargha

Eleven whole days? Give me a break! Were you desperate for the money?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: ScottIngold

David,

Boy does that avatar bring back memories. A bunch of us started using that when you were kicked off of CU.

But alas.... I was given the boot as well.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Too fast on the trigger... I will never leave a negative feedback because I am still at 100% and I know the first negative I leave, there goes my perfect record. It's a problem with the feedback system.

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Posted By: rob

Hey David,

do me a favor and take your sarcasm and shove it...loser.

I clearly explained the situation and how my goal was to protect other ebayers, not to better myself in any way, knowing full well the possibility of retaliation.

rob

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Given the scenario and reasoning you described, I don't think you can be faulted for leaving the negative, but my own opinion is that 11 days is a pretty quick trigger. But the buyer deserves his share of blame, too, especially for not answering your e-mails. How were you to know his "partner" made the purchase? As others have posted, the threat of retaliatory feedback seriously undermines eBay's feedback system. Kudos to you for doing what you thought was the right thing.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

the thing about feedback is you have to look at the whole picture. One negative in itself would not stop me from bidding on an item. You also have to look at what the positives say about the person. Multiple negatives, watchout. I have only one negative in my ebay history and it was from a jerk who after a short amount of time was kicked off of ebay. Personally the feedback if negative should be eliminated when a person is kicked off of ebay. My opinion only.

Ken

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Posted By: DR

Negative feedback is a good thing...the next person will not be so quick to push you around or delay with payment. They know you are not scared of a silly negative. Does someone with 99.9 or even 99.3% positive feedback scare you? Does 98.5% if the negatives were due to non paying bidders? No. So relax.

P.S. You can always tell the buyer you are sorry, it was a simple misunderstanding and would like to mutually remove the negative.

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Posted By: Colt McClelland

11 days is way too quick in my opinion. I would wait at least 30 days before even considering a negative.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Negative feedback is a double-edged sword. You want to do a service to others who might deal with this person in the future, but don't want to risk yourself getting retaliatory feedback.

I am especially fond of the folks who wait until you leave feedback before they retaliate. (NOTE: I understand people on this Board use that policy- I am not referring to them, only to those who leave retaliatory feedback). Example- I once bought a card on eBay and paid IMMEDIATELY. The card I received was in horrible condition and the seller was unresponsive. I left a NEUTRAL and that jackass left me a NEGATIVE, even though I paid on time.

As others have said, if you're going to leave negative, wait until eBay has issued their strike (assuming the other party is a buyer), that way, they are prohibited from leaving you negative.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Well Rob, you've shown your true character. Sorry you can't take a harsh reply, but seriously, how on earth were you able to manage eleven whole days before dropping a negative on this guy? I mean really, why are you as a seller even e-mailing the guy once in that time frame, much less four times? When I sell things, the first e-mail for no response, no PayPal and no payment in the mail goes out at the two week mark.

How's this for a scenario? Jack (the bidder) is on the road. He has a laptop with him and actively bids on cards from his hotel room. The auction ended on Monday. He is back in town Friday night and being extremely diligent, he takes care of his bills on Saturday rather than spending time with his family. The check he is sending doesn't go out Saturday, because when he goes to put it in his mailbox, he sees that the USPS has already delivered. Knowing how valuable your precious check is, he brings the letter back inside so the neighborhood boys don't blow it up with the firecrackers they like to stick in the neighborhood mailboxes.

He heads out of town again Sunday night, but rather than telling his lovely (and neglected) wife, Trisha how much he loves her, he instead tells her that no matter what happens, she is to make sure that your check goes out on Monday in the mail. He knows you are a very impatient man because you have already e-mailed him about the payment. He hasn't responded because firstly he feels that his excellent feedback (which is not much lower in its total number than yours) speaks for itself. Secondly, he hates writing notes and letters, even if it is to tell you that you will be paid just like he did with the other fifty lots he has won and paid for.

Trisha mails the letter on Monday and it makes it way to you. It is set to be delivered three days later, on Thursday but is accidentally stuck in with the wrong postal carrier's mail. He diligently makes sure that at the end of his shift that he brings it back to the postal center because he "just has a feeling" that it's an extremely important piece of mail. Because your mail carrier is so darned efficient, he has already grabbed his letters and parcels before the misplaced envelope containing your check can be put in with his deliveries for the day. But not to worry, on Saturday morning (twelve days after the auction closed) your postal carrier brings your precious check to you. However, you already left negative feedback the day before.

Now you can call me a loser all you want. But when it comes to eBay, "loser" seems to fit more both with buyers who get upset at the five day mark after an auction has closed and they paid by PayPal 1.3 minutes later so they e-mail wanting to know why their card hasn't arrived yet as well as with sellers who give negative feedback after not receiving payment at the eleven day mark. Rob, sometimes people who buy and sell baseball cards on eBay aren't spending every waking hour focusing on baseball cards. Sometimes these ordinary people have lives, vacations (and yes, people bid on cards while on vacation), family emergencies, more pressing matters, etc. So maybe you just need to grow up a little and be more patient with others. Possibly, there are a few honest individuals left who aren't as quick to pay as you are, don't ship cards as quickly as you do or don't communicate as eloquently or as quickly as you do. So lighten up. They're just pieces of cardboard, pal.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: David Hornish

Man, I hate when I pay for something and then the seller posts no feedback until I do. I have completed my end of the deal, almost always with Paypal and almost always within an hour of the auction closing. When I sell on eBay, as soon as I have payment I leave positive feedback. I may be shortsighted but fair's fair.

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Posted By: FYS

11 days, that is pretty fast on the negative feedback trigger.

I still have 100% feedback with 600 positives. I wish I received a negative early on, because I have done a disservice to the community by not leaving negatives in fear of retaliation.

In any case, when I chase down buyers, which unfortunatley is part of selling on eBay:

1. After 7-10 days, resend invoice.
2. After 8-12 days, send an e-mail stating if they are still interested.
3. After 10-15 days, again ask if they are still interested or if they feel I should relist.
4. After 15 days and no return on e-mails, file unpaid eBay dispute.
5. #4 usually gets attention right away.
6. After 20 day and no response to 1-5, send eBay request for their phone number and leave message.

This is a bit aggresive and only used with low feedback bidders or bidders with a somewhat questionable path. If the bidders has a solid history, I usually do not send a reminder invoice for around 14 days.

Have never had to go past that and have always received payment excpet for two times when the bidder became "no longer a registered user" very soon after the end of the auction.

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Posted By: fkw

Personally I wont leave a negative unless Ive been ripped off completely. And to mainly let others know what type of eBayer he is.

If someone doesnt pay I would leave a neutral or nothing (30 days later), and I would block him from bidding.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

You no longer have to worry about retaliation. I've left at least 3 negatives for others and not gotten a negative back. Its not easy - you just set your PDA/Cell Phone calendar to the last day feedback can be left, and in fact the last hour. In one case I let it go up to 5 minutes before the deadline - I believe its 90 days right now. (have not had to do it in a while)

After the deadline there is nothing they can do - then add them to your blocked bidder list.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I generally use the EBAY process. It's slow, but eventually I either get paid or relist the item. Patience is the key; eleven days is not a reasonable timeframe.

Frank

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Posted By: steve f

Dave,

I disagree, only upon closing of a satisfactory deal should feedback be posted. ie payment and item recieved by both parties. Feedback is a courtesy, not mandatory.

As a buyer, I leave feedback for exceptional service regardless of what the seller does.

As a seller, it is foolhardy to leave a feedback first. Negatives do little, if any harm to a buyers standing, but can be detrimental to the seller's reputation. my 2 cents

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Posted By: E, Daniel

But I think both sides are true.
I think 11 days of non-response to email or invoice is unreasonable, but that the course of action should be through ebay first to see if they can egg on the buyer to consumate the transaction.....negatives need come AFTER some sort of resolution - not to encourage one.
And though Dave Vargha is painfully blunt, I also agree that his scenario of people with lives outside of ebay is completely accurate, and that the vagaries of life's ins and outs, delivery cock-ups, etc....mean that expectation of delivery of payment or card inside of a week is unreasonable, no matter how fast you hit the send button through paypal.

There is, of course, a fix.
You see it often with people who have been selling on ebay a number of years, often living in smaller US cities or communities.....it goes:

'Here is my system, it takes such and such time for card to ship, I only visit the post office once a week because I HAVE a life outside ebay, so please don't burst an appendix waiting for your item to arrive. Because, IT WILL ARRIVE!'

Or, as can be seen on any auction I list as a seller:
"Payment is expected within 5 days so that I can maintain efficient and courteous business practices. I would greatly appreciate a response to this email to confirm your mailing address - so that I can prepare your item for shipping." I ship within 3 days of receipt of payment, as that is the smallest time frame I can absolutely guarantee a visit somehow to be organized to the P.O

All you need is to give an idea of how things generally work as a buyer or seller, and everything is sweet. Not sure why people can't manage to just be clearer.


Daniel

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Posted By: Rhys

Dave

That was a great post. My favorite is when people e mail you 2 days after paying with paypal wondering where there thing is. I also LOVE it when people take about a month to mail their payment in, and then get pissed when their item is not mailed the next day.

I usually wait 2 weeks and then send a "You probably overlooked this, but I have not received payment" e mail. A week later I will usually follow up, still with a nice tone, and then if a month goes by I figure its not going to happen and then file for my fees back.

I will not leave a negative unless it is used to warn against blatant fraud or theft and I can justify the retaliation on my record that way.

Rhys

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Posted By: David Hornish

Jim Dale has the best solution I ever heard of there.

Steve f, I can see your point but I have a thing about service. I appreciate when it's done right and efficiently all because of one little event years ago: I got into a months long pissing match with Ticketmaster when they jerked me around on tickets they neglected to mail me and I missed a concert. They refunded my money for the tickets but not the service fee. I kept repeating over and over on the phone to everyone I got ahold of there "you need to provide an actual service to charge a service fee!" I finally got them to refund the service fee....so I tend to reward it if done right and expect the same in return but I totally get the point about taking two to tango.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Just thought I'd post this e-mail from somewone who wanted to bust my balls anonymously. I'm still not sure who he is, but his words were so powerful and convincing that I thought I'd post them here:

From : <Imoguspar@aol.com>
Sent : Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:31 PM
To : davidvargha@hotmail.com
Subject : Feedback


Go to previous message|Go to next message|Delete|Inbox
Your remarks on the above show how naive you are. If I ran my business as you suggest I wouldn't be in business. Hey, why not allow 50 emails and 3 months before leaving a negative?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

now that's a little over the top. shouldn't this be a friendly forum.

Ken

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Posted By: Cat

Dave:

Funny post!!!

I just have this feeling that when you unravel this entire story it's all going to be about a $50 card.

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Posted By: ramram

I thought ebay had a method for mutually agreeing to remove negative feedbacks?? Seems you would both benefit from the removal...if it's allowed.

Rob M.

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Posted By: dennis

a seller should wait at least 14 days to send an email to a non paying bidder.


11 days is way too fast to leave a negative.

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Posted By: rob

David,

I can take a hrash reply like anyone else, but your reply wasnt harsh, it was rude, sarcastic and ignorant.

I am fortunate that I didnt need the money right away, but for some people ebay is their livelihood, and if that were the case for me and you did say that, well I can assure you your comments would not go unnoticed.

The consensus is I left feedback too early and I respect that and was eager to hear what people had to say. I guess the risk is others may get screwed along the way, but so be it apparently. To everyone else, thanks for the comments, to David, I look forward to meeting you someday.

Rob

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Posted By: Matt E.

Whenever I am searching on Ebay for cards and I come across someone who seems questionable on their feedback or quite a few negatives recently, I automatically add them to my blocked bidder list. May not be the right thing to do, but possibly saving myself some hassle down the road. Over 5+ years I have about 120+ out of the millions of ebayers on my list.

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Posted By: Mike

I have never sold anything on Ebay. Only Purchases. For years I tolerated being ripped off. I finally couldn't take it anymore. One seller cashed my check. Never sent the item, and then bitched at me, and left me a neg. comment. I've had two other sellers pretend that they never received my check, so that they could claim I never sent the check, thereby, giving themselves an opportunity to relist the item. I really don't care anymore, about receiving negative retorts from these clowns. So be it. Many sellers don't return e mails, one told me that he needed two weeks to make sure my "cashiers check" cleared his bank. Still don't have it, and he doesn't answer e mails. I've seen him in here by the way. Quite recently, I had a seller cash my check, ( i have a copy) and still claim they didn't receive it. I could go on. This is only 5 or 6 problems out of several hundred, but the point being is that I can't pretend anymore, that all transactions are perfect. I once spoke to one of the nations leading dealers, who has a 100% satisfaction rating. He refuses to give neg. feedback, for the same reasons I've explained. Unwarranted retaliation. So be it....I can't pretend anymore.

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Posted By: Dylan

The system certainly is flawed. But Jim Dale thought of something i never considered with leaving feedback at the last possible moment. Really the only instances where I've HAD to leave neg feedback is with non paying bidders and the 4 0r 5 ive had always end up no longer registered with ebay.

I have had to wait over a month for a payment before and a few days after the guy finally gets around to sending it he starts in about where his card is. This is a situation where i may want to leave a negative but think better of it since he did actually pay and its not worth the retalitory feedback. BUT if someone screws me over completely i'll leave the negative even if I get one back just for leaving it.

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Posted By: Griffin's

I'm pretty sure sniping a neg at the last second isn't foolproof. If they other person has the item number they can still leave feedback after 90 days.
11 days is way too early to neg someone, and 4-5 days is too fast for a reminder. Besides, why neg for non payment, you're just asking for a retalitory neg. Better to file a non paying bidder, that will get action, and if it doesn't will get the guy closer to getting tossed.

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Posted By: Fred Y

I can assure you that 90 day-last second FB thing is NOT foolproof!! I used to think it WAS--and it SEEMED to work a couple years ago.

My only Neg is a Retalitory from a NP Bidder who I left a Neg for at the last second of the 90th day!! 2 days later he was somehow still able to Neg me back and I was able to make a rebuttal.

I've never trusted it since!

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Posted By: Mike

Most everyone has trouble with buyers. All my problems have been with sellers. It seems I have a knack for purchasing items from folks who have dying relatives, or children in the hospital, and they are just too busy to take care of things. Now that may be true, but three in a row ???? No kidding, my last three sellers. Call me a skeptic.

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Hi Everyone, how about being responsible for your actions?

Buying - First of all, you made a bid on an item, hoping to win the auction. You know when the auction ends, so be prepared. It doesn't matter if you won a $3 dollar card or a $3000 card, you made the bid, so pay for the damn thing right away. You should be able to use PayPal within minutes, and you should be able to manage to write a check and address an envelope within minutes. YOU made the bid, YOU know when the aution ended, so it is YOUR responsibility to pay for it. At the very least, if paymentis going to be delayed then email the seller immediately. A simple "I am on the road and I will pay for the item this weekend" will go a long way to solving problems. There is simply NO reason to delay payment for 11 days.

Selling - Again, responsibility. YOU listed the auctions, YOU know when they end, YOU know when you receive payment. Don't list an auction that will end while you are on vacation. Chances are you will be watching the auctions when they close. If someone PayPals you (I know that PayPals isn't a verb), immediately after the auction, you should be able to ship withing 24 hours. There is simply NO reason to wait two weeks to mail an item after you received payment. Again, if you cannot ship immediately, an email saying "I'm sorry, but I will be working overtime all week and can't ship until this weekend", will help ease the buyers mind.

Courtesy and responsibility. My God, I sound like my mom!.

As far as a seller not posting positive feedback immediately after payment, there are reasons for this. I post positive feedback, then you tell me that the card is trimmed. I receive the returned card and issue a refund, but the trimmed card that you returned isn't the card that I sold you. I want to make sure that the buyer has received the card, that the buyer is satisfied, and that the buyer isn't going to try to scam me. That is why I delay positive feeback for a while.

Thanks, Rick

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Posted By: martin dalziel

While it may be effective, I think the 'leave a negative within 5 mins of the 90 day deadline' is spineless. If you have a really negative experience, then leave a negative. If you get one in return, so be it. If you just post facts in your comments and don't resort to name calling then most people understand whats going on and take it into consideration.

I look at Ebay the way I look at the rest of society - do your due diligence and unless there are big reasons to think otherwise, trust everyone. It takes a lot less effort, time, stress and angst to assume people are good.

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Posted By: Dave

Just a side note to add to this post. I wonder if anyone realized that there are semihnars and late night infomercials that are being offered that supposedly show people how to make money on Ebay. In one seminar they focus on Sports memorabilia, cards and autographed items. A prior poster said he had 3 sellers in a row that claimed they had sick relatives or something like that and therefore were unable to ship items......that is one of the tricks that is taught in these seminars. the relative in the hospital line was the exact one that I had heard. Also many these seminars and programs encourage shill and phantom bidding...they actually tell you to sign up for as many accounts as Ebay will let you, and to have your friends sign up as well....that way you have a little network of bidders you can rely on at any given time to shill for you.
Some collector friends and I are seriously thinking about setting up our own auction webring or something like that because we are frankly sick of the shilling going on on Ebay. I'm not dissing Flea Marketers exclusively either. In prior posts I discussed how my brother and I had busted some power sellers on Ebay a couple of weeks ago for shilling on T206's, and N172 Old Judge cards. both sellers are still off of Ebay with the names they were using 2-3 weeks ago. I know setting up auctions on this site was mentioned before. Perhaps it is something that really should happen sooner, rather than later ? I for one would be willing to help in any way possible. May even be able to arrange for web hosting and such. that's my 2 cents worth anyway

signed,
sick of being shilled

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Dave, if there are seminars publicly airing practices to defraud ebay participants, I would think they should be out of business and out a whole lot of money in the very near future. If you have made note of any, I'd recommend emailing ebay with the list and am pretty sure litigation won't be far away....

And Rick - it's cardboard, not a blood transfusion.
If you feel that strongly about 24 hour turnaround payment and delivery, I would recommend emailing each buyer/seller of the cards you're interested in before the auction ends and asking if they can meet your demands. Because very very few people have the same expectations, and truly, you kind of sound like you're taking sportscard addiction to places previously set aside for hard drug users .


Daniel

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Posted By: David Vargha

heh

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dave- I find two things in your post worth commenting on:

1) if there are seminars out there that teach people how to shill bid on ebay, then I have lost all faith in mankind.

2) You said you were thinking of starting your own website for bidding- well, that is exactly what Leon proposed and he got trashed for it. What's the deal here? (I'm not saying you did any of the trashing)

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Posted By: Jason

I see Rob is a tough guy. David, you have better put a lock on your mailbox!


Jason

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jason, what is the link for?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Sadly, the EBAY FB system is broken. It stopped serving
its intended purpose, long ago.

Like many folks here, I have thousands of transactions
and have never left the "bad-guys" a NEG. It just is
not worth getting retals.

If I get a NPB, I just file for the FVFs and move on.

The only circumstance under which I would consider
leaving a NEG would be if the buyer/seller had unfairly
left one for me first.

My system does not well-serve the "EBAY community," but
it works for me.

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Posted By: Jason

Sorry. It keeps coming up automatically. I have to delete it every time.

Jason

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Is there some way to make a signature on Net54?

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Posted By: David Vargha

It must be in your sig line. Update your profile.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: barrysloate

I have no idea what any of you are talking about.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I can't find a place to put a sig line in??? Where is it located?