Why Aren't More Higher Grades Posted?

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

Whilst I greatly enjoy the Board and welcome the
comments of the new collectors and new members,

I am quite disappointed that so very few of the recent
pick ups are super high grade cards.

A rough calculation of Feb-April pick ups indicates that
less than 3% of the cards shown were graded 7 or higher.

It is only when Marshall Fogel or another long-time
collector posts that we have the opportunity to see
the high (or highest) graded speciments.

Furthermore, there are virtually no 7's, 8's or 9's for
sale on the B/S/T section.

Do we have to wait for the quarterly Mastro auction
or the annual REA auction to see the hobby's finest
material...

When it comes to rare baseball cards, nothing is
more important than the quality of the image. Next is .the grade!!

Thanks,


Bruce

America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I couldn't agree more although I doubt that many people on this board do.

Perhaps its because many or at least one believes that if it is psa 7 or better it must be trimmed.

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Posted By: Chris Mc

While everyone is different in what they collect, not all can afford a rare card in 7 or better. Its nice to see rare cards in 7 plus grades but percentage wise(population reports)there just aren't that many. It's hard for me to collect cards in higher grades on what I take home. I have some nice cards but not that many. I think a lot of people would rather have 6 cards at a 3-5 range than just one 9.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Uhhh . . . Bruce, if the cards you are looking for are so commonplace, it wouldn't be called "America's Toughest Want List" would it now? For many pre-war sets, 5's are outstanding and a 6 is the equivalent of a 9 or better for Topps and Bowman from 1948 on. I have a 1923 Curtis Ireland "Rube" Marquard card that is a PSA 5. PSA has only graded five "5's" from that set, with no "6's". SGC has graded six "5's" from that set, with one "6". So is my PSA 5 Marquard a high grade card or is it "collector's grade"?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Anonymous

super high grade is not important to me unless I'm selling. I actually enjoy the patina of time and handling. The history of the human touch is part of the charm.

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Posted By: leon

Back about 8-9 years ago I had this discussion with John Spencer. I was buying his E102 Cobby and I asked him "should I collect more mid grade or fewer nmt type cards?" I chose more cards. As you said Bruce, it's the image we are looking for. Borders were made so the image wouldn't be disrupted with wear to them. I collect cards that have a good aesthetic quality. The borders, as long as they aren't trimmed, are not that important to me. Don't get me wrong, I still like high grade cards, I just can't justify them with my collecting resources..BTW, lmk of all of those truly nmt Just So's and Four Base Hits you have ever seen.....best regards

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Posted By: James Feagin

My finest material is better than your finest material. Seriously, this sounds so OC that I'm apt to get a brain aneurysm if I pay that much mind to what someone else says is a "fine specimen." I have the "Worlds Easiest Wantlist of pictures of grown dead men in baseball uniforms", and the more I can add to my family, the merrier. Viva! the mid-grade! Long live affordable cards for the "true collector".

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Posted By: Brad

I was told to buy the card not the grade! How many times have you said to yourself "man, that guy payed how much!" just for the grade 7, 8 or higher. It doesn't make any senses for a newbie to pay some outrages prices so he can look at the grade, besides you could basically get the same card for more then 50% less cost if you bought a 4,5 or even a raw card.


"Always looking for 1923 V117 Maple Crispette cards"

business_1012002@yahoo.ca

Brad

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Bruce: Please feel free to post 'em.

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Posted By: Chad

Snobbiness about baseball cards? (My apologies if I'm misinterpreting the sentiment.)

--Chad

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Posted By: steve f

I'll bite. Yankeefan... From one that collects the whale guano of the vintage world. It's the dirty, scrubbums that win the titles ala the '04 Boston Idiots. Not the *hifalutin, sterile, over-paid prettyboys Jeter, Arod, Sheffield! Okay, that was a wee stretch, but you get the gist. Anyway nice troll.

*Any reference to the Bombers was intended as an example only.

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Posted By: Anonymous

so.....

....who do ya'll like in the Kentucky Derby Saturday?

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Posted By: jay behrens

Chad, you didn't misinterpret anything. Bruce is a snob. That's fine. He has very specific collecting goals that differ from 99% of this board.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I've been on both sides of the specturm and I'll take well loved cards over sterile, NM+ examples any day. PSA7 and up may look nice but they lack character. They remind too much of card you just popped out of a pack from the store.

Like Leon, my first criteria is picture. I could care less about the boarder. Writing and other things don't bother me as long as it doesn't affect the picture of the player.



This Gehrig would never pass muster with Bruce or Jim C, but this card was dearly loved William Orsatti and he wanted to make sure that if it disappeared, he would be able to identify it and get it back. I'll take a card like this over a PSA7+ and day.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Wesley

>When it comes to rare baseball cards, nothing is
>more important that the quality of the image...the
>grade!!

You sound confused. So what is it? Is image the most important or is grade the most important criteria?

For certain cards, especially the photographic ones like OJs, image quality is the most important feature. That does not necessarilly mean a great technical PSA grade. Conversely, cards with high PSA technical grades sometimes have faint or faded images.

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Posted By: Chad

Real snobs wouldn't appreciate a baseball card if you had a PSA 10 Reccius Wagner. Being a snob about baseball cards is like being a gourmet of vending machine snack cakes. We do this because we love it even if our reasons for loving it baffle even ourselves. If you want to impress the beautiful people, you're probably better off with cars or boats or art by famous, dead painters.

--Chad

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Posted By: cmoking

So Steve, are you telling me no Red Sox fan collect high grade cards? It's always funny to hear the Red Sox crying about money when they are consistently the 2nd highest paid team in the league.

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Posted By: steve f

Nope. Most New Englanders are clever with their investments... Though we will pay $10 for a hot dog, $50 to park at Kenmore and $80 for bleacher seats.

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Posted By: cmoking

Bruce,

Here are some reasons you see few high grade cards posted here.

- there just aren't that many. If there were, they wouldn't be tough to find. So you should expect to see very few of them here or on ebay. Vargha said it nicely.

- as you see from this thread, there are many here that do not appreciate high grade cards as you do. Many think it isn't worth their money...some think they are trimmed. They are all entitled to their opinions of course. Even the threads with Marshall Fogel's cards you see a lot of sly remarks.

- edited to add: there are also some that are jealous of the money you can spend. they may also be pissed that people with money spending on cards are pushing the prices up so they can only afford the beaters. just a fact of life.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Am I the only one that thinks that Crandell, Dorskind, and "The Mint Man" should hook up and form the "triumvarate of carddom?"?

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Posted By: Josh K.

This has got to be one of the most obnoxious posts Ive ever read - everyone beat up on Lee a few weeks ago for his post regarding those who purchase high grade cards. This post is no better.

I like high grade cards as much as the next guy, but I have to agree that the image is the most important thing. Offer me an SGC 10 that looks like this and I will take it everyday (for what its worth, the $50 I spent on this card makes it much more satisfying than the $5000 I'd have to spend on it if it were an sgc 88):

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Posted By: Chad

The back must have a photo of Rosie O'Donnell or something on it to warrant that grade!

--Chad

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Posted By: Josh K.

Chad, I'd probably have had to pass on the card if it had Rosie O'Donnell on the back Just a touch of paperloss from a scrapbook removal.

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Posted By: Seth B.

"Dear me, Jeeves, I've noticed that nobody's spending $25,000 on cardboard in the B/S/T this month!"
What an arrogant post! I think the answer is clear: my wallet isn't a mile wide, and I'm happy to be able to collect at all. Anyway, the original poster sounds despaired that he has to wait for the auctions, but I'll tell you, I'd be terrified of buying blue-chip cards off of the B/S/T in the first place, unless my brother or maybe Leon was selling them.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

Collecting is an individual pursuit and whether:

1) We cherish only super rare items in pristine condition, which Bruce you do collect and collect very well.

2) We are looking for "beaters" to finish a type card collection or a set

3) Whether we attempt to collect every version of John Lackey cards.

4) Whether we collect items relating to our birthday or college or favorite team

5) Whether we collect friends in the hobby and knowledge and disseminate that information

6) Whatever we collect, there is one cardinal rule

Everyone is deserving of respect for what they collect and how they collect.

Rich Klein

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Posted By: Rob NYC

Josh, that is a freakingly AWESOME poor! Mind if I join ya? I got the same grade, but not as sharp as yours!

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Posted By: Josh K.

Rob -

The more the merrier - I love cards like those (in fact, I think you outbid me for that sgc tinker not too long ago).

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Posted By: Rob NYC

Ah! Sorry about that.

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Posted By: Mike

I have specific areas that I covet. I drift off occasionally when something is just too neat to pass on. The cards I purchase, and the price I pay for them, depends on the rarity of the particular issue. I would be foolish to hold out for only 8's or 9's on the George C. Miller issues, or the U S Caramels. So grade 5's will have to do on those. On the other hand, 8's in the Diamond Star set are not that hard to find. On the ultra rare issues, sometimes I have to settle for a 1 or 2, if there are only 15 of each in existance. For me, I try and obtain the highest grades possible. But I have to be reasonable, sometimes the price also does not warrant putting too much cash into a single card. Why would I tie up large amounts of cash on the #1 card in the 34 Goudey set, by buying a grade 8, when a grade 5 will do? that frees up cash to obtain more things that fit my interest. But I must admit, I do try and get the best that I can. If that makes me a card snob, so be it. I also have about 30,000 cards from the late 50's and early 60's, that I collected as 8 year old kid. All beat to heck. But I played with them, and me and my friends had a ball with them. All most every friend I had collected cards. They are all probably all 2's and 3's, but I will never part with them. The memories are too great. So yes, I do appreciate "aged" cards also. Sometimes a well worn 206 is beautiful, I must admit.

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Posted By: Chad

I appreciate the high condition stuff, and my hats off to the folks with the means and desire to collect them. I just don't get the chest beating, I guess.

--Chad

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Chad, I think you bring up a good point. A baseball card snob is hardly a snob in the real spectrum of snobbery. I don't know that Bruce (and Jim) are trying to again stir up class warfare; I think (hope) that Bruce is simply noting that as a high grade collector, he finds it frustrating to not be able to look in the B/S/T board and find high grade cards for sale that he'd like to buy. For what it's worth, I've had that frustration at times, too, even though I recognize that it's ludicrous to expect exactly what I want to buy - in the grade I want - to be staring at me in that forum. And Jay, I'm convinced you're from another time and planet and otherwise out of your mind -- yet if you ever make your way to NYC you need to call me so we can go out for a few beers. (by the way, that Gehrig card with the boy's name scrawled on it is, in my opinion, precious)

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Posted By: Chad

This one's an SGC 84 and it's for sale. AND it's even a hall of famer.

http://www.cubanbaseballauctions.com/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=570

--Chad

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Posted By: Chad

If you guys ever have that beer, I'll tag along if you'll have me. I'm on the Upper East Side.

--Chad

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I fully endorse what Rich Klein says in that "everyone is deserving of respect for what they collect and how they collect" and agree with King's comments on why few high grade cards are posted here.

I consider myself as passionate a collector as there is but I would never buy a card under a SGC or PSA 7 and hope to do all sets I collect in PSA 8 or better. If I have under a 7 in my set based on a raw card I have submitted, for purposes of building my sets I traet it like I don't have it. Some say as long as the picture is intact they will buy the card--to me equally important are centering, corner wear and overall condition of the card.

For those who say you will never collect certain sets because those cards don't exist--I agree.

Enjoy the board and everyones comments.

Jim

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Seems such a strange post, that anyone who has spent time reading and or participating on this board would think such a statement would bring anything but scorn and ridicule...........?

Perhaps, maybe, it was a calculated thought, and a little pot stirring was really what Bruce was after?

Otherwise, it seems just plain dumb.

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Posted By: andy becker

rich said it very well. thanks rich.
all collectors deserve respect, regardless of what you think of their collections.

is it too much to ask to be respectful of one another?

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Posted By: John S

Bruce, I implore you to answer your own question. What types of responses did you expect? You either think that we are all hiding our high end cards (and I cannot imagine that you truly believe this) or you are implicating most members of this board as being low-class collectors of cards not deemed worthy by your standards. Collect what you prefer. Sorry that we have disappointed you with the lack of high quality material.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Jeff and Chad, if I ever make it to NYC again, I will be more than happy to grab a few beers with you guys. Jeff, you aren't the first person wonder the things you do about me. It's very possible that I do come from a another planet and different temporal reality Too bad I can't travel back in time.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

http://www.network54.com/Forum/376260/thread/1146707314/last-1146748779/SGC+84+T205+Matty

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Posted By: Jerry

It's the GAME stupid!! I would hope most of us collect because We Love Baseball, and want to own a piece of the past. I hate it when the size and quality of your collection becomes a Status symbol... The fun of this hobby to me has always been about the game and The thrill of the search. Anybody with enough money can acquire a world class collection in short order. We all want nice cards in our collection, and are proud of what we do have. Some collect Beaters and some collect T206 Wagners and most of us are in the twain, but as long as were all having fun and enjoying the hobby, thats all that matters.
Happy collecting
Jerry

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Posted By: JimB

Bruce,
Let's see some of yours. You ask the question, yet I have not seen you post any of your high-grade cards. Why not?

My collecting in terms of grade is all over the map. I have high-grade, mid-grade and low-grade cards. I usually only go for lower grades when I really love the card and it is very tough even in mid-grade and it has good eye appeal like the card Josh posted. For example I have a PSA 2 purple E94 Cobb that I love as much or more than some of my PSA 8s.
JimB

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Posted By: Cobby33

I would rather have a set of low-grade T206 variations (anyone have a Lundgren????) than a PSA 9 Fred Beck. To me, it seems elementary, but to those who insist on collecing high-grade material, go for it.

This is akin to the argument that I would rather pay a bunch of money for a T-card than a Picasso, but I'm not going to get irritated with the art snobs.

"Whatev!"

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Posted By: Bob

"Being a snob about baseball cards is like being a gourmet of vending machine snack cakes."

Thanks Chad, that was my smile of the week

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I think many collectors are not as enamored with PSA 10s, as PSA 10 collectors think they should be. Some collectors desire a card to look Gem Mint while others desire their 1910 card to look as if it was from 1910. There's no right or wrong involved there.

My retired neighbor is a collector of antique English silver. He said that especially for large display pieces like a tea set, some collectors prefer the silver to look brand new, while others prefer it to be in nice shape but resemble its old age. He said it was a matter of the collector's taste.

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Posted By: leon

My guess is this would be about 100k in an SGC84 or SGC88 holder....but for 1/4 of that I got it and am very happy to have the extra money to pay the collection agency folks always calling me...Would pointed corners really make it 75k more valuable? I guess to many it would...

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

DavidCycleback,

no right or wrong--exactly.

But count me among those who would rather have 1 psa 9 than 9 psa 1s--especially if it is a pop 1.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Gee JimB I was wondering the same thing.

I am sure alot of the fact that people don't post is the same reason I asked about the T206 Cobb Green, that sure looked short. Bruce, You can probably blame me for alot not being posted. I do not post unless I feel it is relavent and warrant a discussion.

I posted the cards I thought were suspect in the current REA auction on the T206 high graded set and asked for opinions whether I was wrong in my assumptions. How many responses did I get. One, From Jim and he asked the question and did not tell me I was wrong in my assumption.

The majority of this board is not high income collectors, contrary to what it may seem.

I can neither confirm or deny that Jay is not of this earth because he is older and was here before me, but it would be nice to know that he is not blood.

Lee

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

A rough calculation of Feb-April pick ups indicates that
less than 3% of the cards shown were graded 7 or higher.

Well Bruce, what percentage of graded cards are 7 or higher?

__________________________________________________ _________


Furthermore, there are virtually no 7's, 8's or 9's for
sale on the B/S/T section

How many 7s, 8s and 9s are you selling, Bruce?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

This isn't the 1st intemperate post he's made w.r.t the card collecting habits of the hoi polloi (I happily include myself in that category, BTW). Just ignore it.

Most of what I collect does not exist in higher grades and you have to take what you can find; if you resolve only to collect tip top condition prewar cards, you wait a long time between acquisitions. I know that would bore me to tears.

Chad: don't diss us snack cake connoisseurs. How do you think I built this physique, whole grains, veggies and lean proteins? Little Chocolate Donuts rule!

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

Bruce,

After these types of posts, I honestly wonder why you bought a PSA 5 Harry Davis Plow's from me about a year ago. I also wonder why you dickered me down to get it.

I'm not trying to start anything...but it doesn't make sense to me.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Whenever any board member takes him or her herself too seriously (and we all do at times), go and tell someone on the street that you are a collector of baseball cards, and watch how seriously you are taken. ("Isn't that cute. My daughter collects Britany Spears cards. Maybe you can compare collections.") Realize that the general population considers collecting baseball cards on the significance level of collecting beanie babies and collector's plates. Good clean fun no doubt, but hardly anything to act snooty over.

If in your mind you exchange the word 'beanie baby' for 'baseball card' in the heated Net54 board debates debates, you can see how silly the arguments will appear to outsiders. Remember, that there are companies that grade and authenticate beanie babies too.

I've wondered what involves the bigger foolishness, an adult paying $100 but a AAA paperstock cutout or an adult paying $100,000 for a PSA 10 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. My guess is that the average person on the street would pick the latter. If you explained that the Mantle purchase is not foolish financially as others will pay similarly for the card and the auction price required like-minded underbidders, this non-collector might say that this merely shows that there are more numerous fools.