1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381 Marlboro Errors - 30 Years Later

[saucywombat]

Fun thread have enjoyed the read.

Related fun card (I believe) is 1989 Topps Steve Searcy, where a difference in cropping was made that obscures the Marlboro ad. Earlier versions show the ad more clearly later ones don't.

Now all the 1989 Topps Future Stars have these slight cropping variations, so it made me wonder if these differences are perhaps all tied to making a change to the Searcy card to hide the Marlboro ad. Only the Future Stars cards have these cropping differences (and they appear on different printing sheets) so it can reasonably assumed that the cropping was intentionally done for some reason.

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by Extra Innings

I don't think the name on the back of that jersey says 'Johnson'. The last letter looks like an 'S'.

I'm 99% sure is says Expos. You can see an E on the back of some other players in their Jacksonville team sets.

Originally Posted by saucywombat

Fun thread have enjoyed the read.
Related fun card (I believe) is 1989 Topps Steve Searcy, where a difference in cropping was made that obscures the Marlboro ad. Earlier versions show the ad more clearly later ones don't.
Now all the 1989 Topps Future Stars have these slight cropping variations, so it made me wonder if these differences are perhaps all tied to making a change to the Searcy card to hide the Marlboro ad. Only the Future Stars cards have these cropping differences (and they appear on different printing sheets) so it can reasonably assumed that the cropping was intentionally done for some reason.

It sure does seem the cropping changes were done to obscure the Marlboro advertisement. I was unaware of these 1989 Topps variations. Thank you for pointing to a 2nd example and 2nd manufacturer that year that covered a tobacco ad by editing it out during production, which is another interesting clue.

We've discussed the Clear/Blue, Fish and Negative versions of these error variations a little. That leaves the Marlboro, Red, Greens and...what else??Steve posted a really cool picture of some of his Marlboro versions on another site and hopefully he'll share it here as well. Who else has some images of their other versions they would like to share?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

It sure does seem the cropping changes were done to obscure the Marlboro advertisement. I was unaware of these 1989 Topps variations. Thank you for pointing to a 2nd example and 2nd manufacturer that year that covered a tobacco ad by editing it out during production, which is another interesting clue.

I disagree with this new theory. I do believe that they made a design change because of the Future Stars type and how it fit with the photo size and uniformity of the set’s design. The Searcy is a coincidence and I’m fairly certain that other 1989 Topps (and other brands) have cards showing the cigarette signs in the background.

See also the Gregg Jefferies card on 1989 wax boxes and the multiple changes that the Sheffield went through.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

I'm 99% sure is says Expos. You can see an E on the back of some other players in their Jacksonville team sets.



It sure does seem the cropping changes were done to obscure the Marlboro advertisement. I was unaware of these 1989 Topps variations. Thank you for pointing to a 2nd example and 2nd manufacturer that year that covered a tobacco ad by editing it out during production, which is another interesting clue.

We've discussed the Clear/Blue, Fish and Negative versions of these error variations a little. That leaves the Marlboro, Red, Greens and...what else??Steve posted a really cool picture of some of his Marlboro versions on another site and hopefully he'll share it here as well. Who else has some images of their other versions they would like to share?

Sure, Hatorade. I've always been fascinated with this Marlboro version since I was a kid and my cousin pointed it out to me. Once I came back into the hobby I've focused on examples with the most clarity of the sign (i.e., being able to clearly see each letter in the word Marlboro and the cowboy). I've found clearness to be a continuous variable though (without completely defined levels). I've never tried to draw it out but this has sort of been my way of thinking about clarity and the tint versions. Of course it gets trickier when you have green tint over red scribbling, etc. I'm not claiming this rough sketch is entirely accurate but I hope to try to add to it.

My pipe dream would be to flesh this out to categorize all of the versions and then get population counts (at least for PSA graded cards) for all of the different versions. Assuming we put some numeric clarity scale on the Y-axis, it would be great to be able to note that a card was G1 (i.e., "clearest" green tint) or R3_4 (i.e., looks like it falls between clarity 3 and 4 for a red tint version) and others would know exactly which version you are talking about. Just a few random thoughts. Steve

[saucywombat]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Sure, Hatorade. I've always been fascinated with this Marlboro version since I was a kid and my cousin pointed it out to me. Once I came back into the hobby I've focused on examples with the most clarity of the sign (i.e., being able to clearly see each letter in the word Marlboro and the cowboy). I've found clearness to be a continuous variable though (without completely defined levels). I've never tried to draw it out but this has sort of been my way of thinking about clarity and the tint versions. Of course it gets trickier when you have green tint over red scribbling, etc. I'm not claiming this rough sketch is entirely accurate but I hope to try to add to it.

My pipe dream would be to flesh this out to categorize all of the versions and then get population counts (at least for PSA graded cards) for all of the different versions. Assuming we put some numeric clarity scale on the Y-axis, it would be great to be able to note that a card was G1 (i.e., "clearest" green tint) or R3_4 (i.e., looks like it falls between clarity 3 and 4 for a red tint version) and others would know exactly which version you are talking about. Just a few random thoughts. Steve

This is great

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Sure, Hatorade. I've always been fascinated with this Marlboro version since I was a kid and my cousin pointed it out to me. Once I came back into the hobby I've focused on examples with the most clarity of the sign (i.e., being able to clearly see each letter in the word Marlboro and the cowboy). I've found clearness to be a continuous variable though (without completely defined levels). I've never tried to draw it out but this has sort of been my way of thinking about clarity and the tint versions. Of course it gets trickier when you have green tint over red scribbling, etc. I'm not claiming this rough sketch is entirely accurate but I hope to try to add to it.

My pipe dream would be to flesh this out to categorize all of the versions and then get population counts (at least for PSA graded cards) for all of the different versions. Assuming we put some numeric clarity scale on the Y-axis, it would be great to be able to note that a card was G1 (i.e., "clearest" green tint) or R3_4 (i.e., looks like it falls between clarity 3 and 4 for a red tint version) and others would know exactly which version you are talking about. Just a few random thoughts. Steve

You're really on the right track with this. One hint I can suggest is that there are at least two separate, but very similar red tint lineages. I've attached a couple images of 1 of the darker versions of each of these 2 red attempts, which would be at the bottom of each of the two red columns on your chart. I’ve also included another image of the dark blue I have for the bottom of the blue column.

[Statfreak101]

Was just thinking of this while watching the Twins/Sox game...

Has anyone ever seen a cello or rack showing a Johnson Marlboro version on top?

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by Statfreak101

Was just thinking of this while watching the Twins/Sox game...

Has anyone ever seen a cello or rack showing a Johnson Marlboro version on top?

Here are the 2 cellos we’ve come across with an RJ error on the front. I’m assuming PSA will label them Completely Blacked Out whenever we send them in to get authenticated.

[jp1216]

PSA won't authenticate 1989 Fleer cellos anymore. The newer holders are too tight for those packs - FYI.

(Note: I now am seeing some of these 'new' PSA holders on eBay - so maybe they 'fit' now. )

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by Statfreak101

Was just thinking of this while watching the Twins/Sox game...

Has anyone ever seen a cello or rack showing a Johnson Marlboro version on top?

PSA graded 2 of our 3 cello packs and actually included the "Ad Partially Obscured" label on the flip.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

PSA graded 2 of our 3 cello packs and actually included the "Ad Partially Obscure" label on the flip.

Awesome!

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

You're really on the right track with this. One hint I can suggest is that there are at least two separate, but very similar red tint lineages. I've attached a couple images of 1 of the darker versions of each of these 2 red attempts, which would be at the bottom of each of the two red columns on your chart. I’ve also included another image of the dark blue I have for the bottom of the blue column.

Thanks! You have many many more of the versions than I do! I wonder if it makes sense to edit the sketch, putting the clearest version on the very top (since it is highest on the clarity scale) and the completely blacked out version on the very bottom (since it is lowest on the clarity scale). All of the other versions fall between these two extremes (so those pictures would be in the middle). Then, I could replace the "no tint" label with "light red tint" (so the four columns across the x-axis would be "light red tint", "blue tint", "green tint", and "dark red tint")?

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Thanks! You have many many more of the versions than I do! I wonder if it makes sense to edit the sketch, putting the clearest version on the very top (since it is highest on the clarity scale) and the completely blacked out version on the very bottom (since it is lowest on the clarity scale). All of the other versions fall between these two extremes (so those pictures would be in the middle). Then, I could replace the "no tint" label with "light red tint" (so the four columns across the x-axis would be "light red tint", "blue tint", "green tint", and "dark red tint")?

You would remove the clear tint column. The top card from that column would be moved to the top of the blue column. That card and Kevin's card would be the two known copies in the clear range of the blue run and go at the top of the column. It would be very interesting to see the two card together, it's likely there is a slight discrepancy in the amount of blue tint between the two clear blue cards. Then there are 4 or 5 known mid-blue copies that would follow those two in the column and then the 1 known copy of the blue box at the bottom. That makes up all the known blue cards and highlights how rare the clear/blue run is. There are likely to be a few more blue cards that pop up and could be placed into their appropriate positions in the blue column. To add the grading element you suggested. The top grade for a clear version is tied at PSA 9, mid-blue 2 PSA 9's and of the top blue box version is currently an PSA 8.

It looks like the next two cards remaining from the clear column would be moved to the top of the current red column. The last remaining image in the old clear column would be moved to the top to start a red 2 column. You would also add 2 columns for each fish version and 1 for the negatives that we've talked about earlier. Then things get pretty interesting for the greens. There appears to me to be a minimum of 4 or 5 different green runs so it gets a little tougher for them. Fortunately, with some of the characteristic feature I mentioned earlier you can do some separating within the different versions.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

You would remove the clear tint column. The top card from that column would be moved to the top of the blue column. That card and Kevin's card would be the two known copies in the clear range of the blue run and go at the top of the column. It would be very interesting to see the two card together, it's likely there is a slight discrepancy in the amount of blue tint between the two clear blue cards. Then there are 4 or 5 known mid-blue copies that would follow those two in the column and then the 1 known copy of the blue box at the bottom. That makes up all the known blue cards and highlights how rare the clear/blue run is. There are likely to be a few more blue cards that pop up and could be placed into their appropriate positions in the blue column. To add the grading element you suggested. The top grade for a clear version is tied at PSA 9, mid-blue 2 PSA 9's and of the top blue box version is currently an PSA 8.

It looks like the next two cards remaining from the clear column would be moved to the top of the current red column. The last remaining image in the old clear column would be moved to the top to start a red 2 column. You would also add 2 columns for each fish version and 1 for the negatives that we've talked about earlier. Then things get pretty interesting for the greens. There appears to me to be a minimum of 4 or 5 different green runs so it gets a little tougher for them. Fortunately, with some of the characteristic feature I mentioned earlier you can do some separating within the different versions.

Why would you put the clearest version in the blue group? That scan shows less red than I have seen in other scans of the 2 known clearest versions. To me it would be the the lightest red tint.

I also have one of the blue box cards. Pretty sure I have posted a pic of it.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

I'm 99% sure is says Expos. You can see an E on the back of some other players in their Jacksonville team sets.



It sure does seem the cropping changes were done to obscure the Marlboro advertisement. I was unaware of these 1989 Topps variations. Thank you for pointing to a 2nd example and 2nd manufacturer that year that covered a tobacco ad by editing it out during production, which is another interesting clue.

We've discussed the Clear/Blue, Fish and Negative versions of these error variations a little. That leaves the Marlboro, Red, Greens and...what else??Steve posted a really cool picture of some of his Marlboro versions on another site and hopefully he'll share it here as well. Who else has some images of their other versions they would like to share?

Also, during the recent downtime, I scanned some of my clearest PSA graded ("no-tint") examples using the same scanner with same scan settings. Here is that picture in case anyone is interested. All of the cards pictured except the clearest version one (i.e., N1, or "no tint" clarity 1) would fall in the N2 ("no tint" clarity 2) bin.


https://imgur.com/a/DgBH8Yh