NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-07-2023, 04:26 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
+j +R@!|
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,708
Default Do PSA slabs *really* sell for more than SGC?

We are constantly told that PSA slabs sell for more than SGC. This is probably the most common argument we hear whenever someone asks if they should get their cards graded by PSA or SGC. And, while it may be true that a randomly chosen card at auction in a PSA 6 ends with a higher hammer price than another copy of the same card in an SGC 6, it certainly doesn't always outsell it. The card inside the holder always matters more.

That said, the current state of grading vintage cards drastically changes the conversation. The more important question now is, "will my raw cards sell for more if I get them slabbed by PSA or by SGC?" This is a much more important question to ask if you're sending cards off for grading.

The reality today is that you have an extremely high likelihood of getting your cards severely under graded if you send them off to PSA, especially for cards sent at the lower service levels (sub ~$500 cards) where they have inexperienced graders evaluating your cards. It's been happening for a few years now, and I kept waiting for them to correct the issue, but it only seems to have gotten worse. The majority of their vintage graders simply don't know what they're doing. At all. It's really unfortunate. There are still a handful of vintage graders there that do give out fair grades, but they are becoming fewer and further between than in years past. And they're mostly just handling the cards that are sent through at the higher service levels. And even then, they're often still overly harsh on grades.

Contrast that with what is happening over at SGC, and it's a vastly different landscape. I've graded thousands of cards with both companies over the past few years and I keep meticulous records. The gap between grades awarded is now generally at least a full grade difference and often reaches 2 full grades or more. And it's not because SGC is grading soft. They're grading accurately and consistently. PSA simply is not.

I could post endless examples that demonstrate this from cards I've graded and regraded with both companies and cards I've crossed over in both directions in recent months and over the past few years. Here are just a few cards from some of my most recent submissions showing the grades they received at PSA and the grades they received at SGC. Again, this is just a snapshot. I could post endless examples just like these.

Also worth noting is that any color differences you see in the images are due to the images being generated by different scanners and/or scanner settings. None of these cards were improved in any way between submissions. They were simply cracked out of the PSA slabs and sent directly to SGC.

To be fair, any random submission can get hammered by any random grader at any company on any given day. Even the same grader can be more lenient on one day than they are on another. Grading is a human process and variance should be expected. I have gotten fair grades at both PSA and SGC. But what I'm reporting on is my zoomed out look at my experiences grading thousands of cards with both companies over the past few years over at least 100 or so different submissions and where the state of grading is currently at today. And in general, these results shown below are now extremely common.

PSA does not outsell SGC today. Not if we're talking about the same card being sent to both companies.

Note - the Lefty Odoul Goudey was previously a PSA 3 that I cracked and sent back to PSA because it was under graded. They then rejected it as "min size" the second time (it is not). Also, none of these cards have any hidden creases or other hidden surface flaws.

..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1933G_Rogell.jpg (196.9 KB, 865 views)
File Type: jpg 1933G_Grantham.jpg (197.7 KB, 868 views)
File Type: jpg 1933G_Terry.jpg (198.9 KB, 870 views)
File Type: jpg 1933G_Lefty.jpg (196.4 KB, 868 views)
File Type: jpg 1963T_Mantle.jpg (196.5 KB, 885 views)
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it.

Last edited by Snowman; 12-07-2023 at 04:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-07-2023, 05:06 PM
vthobby vthobby is offline
Mike P.ap
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: VT
Posts: 2,354
Default ......

Well said.

I've known this since SGC inception. I was grading with both from the start of both companies.

I've also taken advantage of these misconceptions over the years.

SGC rocks!

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-07-2023, 06:04 PM
mannequin1 mannequin1 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 31
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
We are constantly told that PSA slabs sell for more than SGC. This is probably the most common argument we hear whenever someone asks if they should get their cards graded by PSA or SGC. And, while it may be true that a randomly chosen card at auction in a PSA 6 ends with a higher hammer price than another copy of the same card in an SGC 6, it certainly doesn't always outsell it. The card inside the holder always matters more.

That said, the current state of grading vintage cards drastically changes the conversation. The more important question now is, "will my raw cards sell for more if I get them slabbed by PSA or by SGC?" This is a much more important question to ask if you're sending cards off for grading.

The reality today is that you have an extremely high likelihood of getting your cards severely under graded if you send them off to PSA, especially for cards sent at the lower service levels (sub ~$500 cards) where they have inexperienced graders evaluating your cards. It's been happening for a few years now, and I kept waiting for them to correct the issue, but it only seems to have gotten worse. The majority of their vintage graders simply don't know what they're doing. At all. It's really unfortunate. There are still a handful of vintage graders there that do give out fair grades, but they are becoming fewer and further between than in years past. And they're mostly just handling the cards that are sent through at the higher service levels. And even then, they're often still overly harsh on grades.

Contrast that with what is happening over at SGC, and it's a vastly different landscape. I've graded thousands of cards with both companies over the past few years and I keep meticulous records. The gap between grades awarded is now generally at least a full grade difference and often reaches 2 full grades or more. And it's not because SGC is grading soft. They're grading accurately and consistently. PSA simply is not.

I could post endless examples that demonstrate this from cards I've graded and regraded with both companies and cards I've crossed over in both directions in recent months and over the past few years. Here are just a few cards from some of my most recent submissions showing the grades they received at PSA and the grades they received at SGC. Again, this is just a snapshot. I could post endless examples just like these.

Also worth noting is that any color differences you see in the images are due to the images being generated by different scanners and/or scanner settings. None of these cards were improved in any way between submissions. They were simply cracked out of the PSA slabs and sent directly to SGC.

To be fair, any random submission can get hammered by any random grader at any company on any given day. Even the same grader can be more lenient on one day than they are on another. Grading is a human process and variance should be expected. I have gotten fair grades at both PSA and SGC. But what I'm reporting on is my zoomed out look at my experiences grading thousands of cards with both companies over the past few years over at least 100 or so different submissions and where the state of grading is currently at today. And in general, these results shown below are now extremely common.

PSA does not outsell SGC today. Not if we're talking about the same card being sent to both companies.

Note - the Lefty Odoul Goudey was previously a PSA 3 that I cracked and sent back to PSA because it was under graded. They then rejected it as "min size" the second time (it is not). Also, none of these cards have any hidden creases or other hidden surface flaws.

..
I find the differences between PSA and SGC incredible but why do the scans of SGC cards have darker, more natural colors?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-07-2023, 07:13 PM
campyfan39's Avatar
campyfan39 campyfan39 is offline
Chris
Ch.ris Pa.rtin
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,118
Default

He said in his post:

"Also worth noting is that any color differences you see in the images are due to the images being generated by different scanners and/or scanner settings."


Quote:
Originally Posted by mannequin1 View Post
I find the differences between PSA and SGC incredible but why do the scans of SGC cards have darker, more natural colors?
__________________
[FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]CampyFan39
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-07-2023, 07:28 PM
Fred's Avatar
Fred Fred is online now
Fred
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,969
Default

Well, it's early in the post process so I guess I'll state what will be repeated. It's the registry slab heads.

We'll keep this to SGC and PSA. I used to think SGC was a bit better at being consistent in the subjectivity side of grading, then after a while it became obvious, they're not very different, especially now.

I wouldn't pay more for a PSA or SGC slabbed card. Don't follow the TPG, follow what your eyes see and repeat that phrase we always hear "buy the card not the holder". If bidders want to let a card go because it's in an SGC holder rather than PSA, then that's fine. The way I see it, if it's being discounted because it's in the SGC holder, then buy the discount and if you really have to have it in a PSA holder, then send it to PSA to get slabbed.
__________________
fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something
cool you're looking to find a new home for.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-07-2023, 09:06 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,273
Default

All things being equal I would argue PSA beats SGC. Yes a High end SGC 6 can beat a low end PSA 6, but apples to apples PSA wins.
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible!

and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-07-2023, 10:15 PM
GregMitch34's Avatar
GregMitch34 GregMitch34 is offline
Greg Mitchell
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: New York City area
Posts: 2,417
Default

As I have stated elsewhere, PSA has ridiculously high standards when it comes to (down) grading the M101-2s, aka Sporting News Supplements. But I now have quite a few of them. Why? Few cared about them before PSA started grading them in the jumbo holders just a few short years ago. They looked so bad in the Beckett holders and some were found to be mis-sized. (Yes, some want to keep them raw in any case but I'd guess some also hated the holders.) Once PSA started grading--even harshly--interest and collectors picked up enormously. And buyers/sellers quickly adapted to the harsh grading, pegging the value of low-graded HOFers (usually no better than a PSA 1 or 2 or even Auth) at high level. Just adapting. Not many higher graded, by PSA, will likely come along.

Of course, no SGC grading for these specimens--will be interesting if they start....
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-07-2023, 10:45 PM
Gorditadogg Gorditadogg is offline
Al Stein
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,790
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
All things being equal I would argue PSA beats SGC. Yes a High end SGC 6 can beat a low end PSA 6, but apples to apples PSA wins.
OK. But would you pay more for that 63 Mantle as a PSA 2 or SGC 4?

My problem with PSA now is how the standards are moving. If you have a PSA 6 in an old cert, with a 0 or 1 to start, it's probably over-rated and worth less than an SGC 6. But a PSA 6 in a new cert will be undergraded and worth more. You need a conversion chart to figure the value.

For me, right now I am selling PSA and buying raw.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-07-2023, 11:38 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,273
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorditadogg View Post
OK. But would you pay more for that 63 Mantle as a PSA 2 or SGC 4?

My problem with PSA now is how the standards are moving. If you have a PSA 6 in an old cert, with a 0 or 1 to start, it's probably over-rated and worth less than an SGC 6. But a PSA 6 in a new cert will be undergraded and worth more. You need a conversion chart to figure the value.

For me, right now I am selling PSA and buying raw.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk
in your example I'm taking the SGC 4. Low grade vs mid grade should still favor SGC in that case. Couldn't agree more about the current grading situation and think that's a pretty good strategy when you are as knowledgeable as you are and aren't at very much risk of getting taken with an altered card.
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible!

and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-08-2023, 06:57 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is online now
Johnny MaZilli
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,114
Default

I agree with the grading of late, past 3 years on vintage.


PSA in my opinion has two things SGC will never have and that is Pop and Registry to me that means total control of the Value of the Investors Premium Vintage Grail Slabbed Collections already graded thus keeping their value high and pops low.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-08-2023, 07:04 AM
cgjackson222's Avatar
cgjackson222 cgjackson222 is offline
Charles Jackson
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,371
Default

Great examples! Thanks for sharing.

Pretty crazy how harsh PSA has gotten on vintage.

The one thing I would say is that SGC can sometimes be harsh re: centering.

So if you have a centered vintage card, your best would be to go with SGC.

But if your card is not centered, it is more of a crapshoot between PSA and SGC.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-08-2023, 08:23 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,082
Default

It works both ways. I recently had an entire sub severely undergraded by SGC. I regraded the three cards I cared most about with PSA. +2, +2, and +.5.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-08-2023 at 08:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-08-2023, 08:26 AM
Kco Kco is online now
Kevin
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 354
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgjackson222 View Post
Great examples! Thanks for sharing.

Pretty crazy how harsh PSA has gotten on vintage.

The one thing I would say is that SGC can sometimes be harsh re: centering.

So if you have a centered vintage card, your best would be to go with SGC.

But if your card is not centered, it is more of a crapshoot between PSA and SGC.
It's to artificially drive up the value on higher grades already in population. If they rarely issue high grades, high grade values will naturally rise due to supply relative to population, this has a compounded affect on lower grades as they will become more desirable due to price/supply.

This is also happening on vintage auto grading and has been for a few years. What was once a 10 is now an 8, etc. PSA 9 is about as good as you'll ever get on a grade now.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-08-2023, 08:39 AM
bnorth's Avatar
bnorth bnorth is online now
Ben North
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 9,706
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It works both ways. I recently had an entire sub severely undergraded by SGC. I regraded the three cards I cared most about with PSA. +2, +2, and +.5.
Mu last submission was similar to this but with smaller bumps. I cracked out 3 freshly graded SGC cards and sent them to PSA. I got a full grade bump on one card and the other 2 went from 6.5s to 7s. It was awesome because it turned 2 of the 3 cards into the highest graded by PSA.

Great examples snowman. Using the same card is WAY more realistic that 2 completely different cards of the same grade.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-08-2023, 08:42 AM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
+j +R@!|
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgjackson222 View Post
Great examples! Thanks for sharing.

Pretty crazy how harsh PSA has gotten on vintage.

The one thing I would say is that SGC can sometimes be harsh re: centering.

So if you have a centered vintage card, your best would be to go with SGC.

But if your card is not centered, it is more of a crapshoot between PSA and SGC.
Yes, this is definitely true. SGC is more strict about centering (as they should be IMO). But they also reward good centering, which PSA does not do. I consistently get half grade bumps, and even sometimes full grade bumps, with SGC for perfectly centered cards. The majority of my collection is centered. I almost never get half grades from PSA. They don't even take it into consideration at all, other than as a mere qualifier for a grade, and even at that they're pretty lenient. The number of OC 10s in PSA slabs is embarrassing.
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-08-2023, 08:45 AM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
+j +R@!|
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It works both ways. I recently had an entire sub severely undergraded by SGC. I regraded the three cards I cared most about with PSA. +2, +2, and +.5.
This is an extremely rare circumstance in my experience. Unless your cards were heavily OC.
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-08-2023, 09:15 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,082
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
This is an extremely rare circumstance in my experience. Unless your cards were heavily OC.
They were not, not at all. I guess I got unlucky with the grader. Two grades low, consistently. Worse in some cases.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-08-2023 at 09:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-08-2023, 09:27 AM
Vintagedeputy's Avatar
Vintagedeputy Vintagedeputy is online now
Jim Reynolds
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Glen Allen, Va.
Posts: 992
Default

Outstanding post and pics. Really drives the point home.

I have used SGC exclusively since their days in Parsippany. I have always been satisfied by the grade received and cannot understand why people keep giving their money to PSA, only to be disappointed on some level.

Last edited by Vintagedeputy; 12-08-2023 at 09:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-08-2023, 10:36 AM
Bigdaddy's Avatar
Bigdaddy Bigdaddy is offline
+0m J()rd@N
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: VA
Posts: 1,816
Default

Its a fool's folly to think that two subjective, arbitrary, constantly-evolving grading scales developed by independent, competing companies would line up when grading cards. There should be no expectation that a PSA 6 should line up with an SGC 6, condition wise and/or price wise.

Add to that, the subjectivity of the individual graders and even the non-repeatability of a given grader over time, it's no wonder that the data is all over the place.

It does seem like SGC gives a bit more weight to 'eye appeal' than does PSA, sometimes giving a bump for better centered cards. To me, that is preferable.
__________________
Working Sets:
Baseball-
T206 SLers - Virginia League (-2)
1952 Topps - low numbers (-1)
1954 Bowman (-5)
1964 Topps Giants auto'd (-2)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-08-2023, 01:36 PM
mannequin1 mannequin1 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 31
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
We are constantly told that PSA slabs sell for more than SGC. This is probably the most common argument we hear whenever someone asks if they should get their cards graded by PSA or SGC. And, while it may be true that a randomly chosen card at auction in a PSA 6 ends with a higher hammer price than another copy of the same card in an SGC 6, it certainly doesn't always outsell it. The card inside the holder always matters more.

That said, the current state of grading vintage cards drastically changes the conversation. The more important question now is, "will my raw cards sell for more if I get them slabbed by PSA or by SGC?" This is a much more important question to ask if you're sending cards off for grading.

The reality today is that you have an extremely high likelihood of getting your cards severely under graded if you send them off to PSA, especially for cards sent at the lower service levels (sub ~$500 cards) where they have inexperienced graders evaluating your cards. It's been happening for a few years now, and I kept waiting for them to correct the issue, but it only seems to have gotten worse. The majority of their vintage graders simply don't know what they're doing. At all. It's really unfortunate. There are still a handful of vintage graders there that do give out fair grades, but they are becoming fewer and further between than in years past. And they're mostly just handling the cards that are sent through at the higher service levels. And even then, they're often still overly harsh on grades.

Contrast that with what is happening over at SGC, and it's a vastly different landscape. I've graded thousands of cards with both companies over the past few years and I keep meticulous records. The gap between grades awarded is now generally at least a full grade difference and often reaches 2 full grades or more. And it's not because SGC is grading soft. They're grading accurately and consistently. PSA simply is not.

I could post endless examples that demonstrate this from cards I've graded and regraded with both companies and cards I've crossed over in both directions in recent months and over the past few years. Here are just a few cards from some of my most recent submissions showing the grades they received at PSA and the grades they received at SGC. Again, this is just a snapshot. I could post endless examples just like these.

Also worth noting is that any color differences you see in the images are due to the images being generated by different scanners and/or scanner settings. None of these cards were improved in any way between submissions. They were simply cracked out of the PSA slabs and sent directly to SGC.

To be fair, any random submission can get hammered by any random grader at any company on any given day. Even the same grader can be more lenient on one day than they are on another. Grading is a human process and variance should be expected. I have gotten fair grades at both PSA and SGC. But what I'm reporting on is my zoomed out look at my experiences grading thousands of cards with both companies over the past few years over at least 100 or so different submissions and where the state of grading is currently at today. And in general, these results shown below are now extremely common.

PSA does not outsell SGC today. Not if we're talking about the same card being sent to both companies.

Note - the Lefty Odoul Goudey was previously a PSA 3 that I cracked and sent back to PSA because it was under graded. They then rejected it as "min size" the second time (it is not). Also, none of these cards have any hidden creases or other hidden surface flaws.

..
Like I said, the grading differences between PSA and SGC are incredible, but you should have also posted pictures of the backs, to support the case.

Last edited by mannequin1; 12-08-2023 at 01:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-08-2023, 03:15 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
+j +R@!|
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mannequin1 View Post
Like I said, the grading differences between PSA and SGC are incredible, but you should have also posted pictures of the backs, to support the case.
The backs are all clean. No hidden flaws.

Here are a few more pics of some postwar fronts for you though...

..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1960T Koufax PSA2-SGC4.jpg (196.6 KB, 525 views)
File Type: jpg 1960T Koufax PSA4-SGC6.jpg (197.6 KB, 527 views)
File Type: jpg 1960T Mays PSA3-SGC5.jpg (197.4 KB, 525 views)
File Type: jpg 1970T Hank Aaron.jpg (197.6 KB, 525 views)
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-08-2023, 03:46 PM
Beercan collector's Avatar
Beercan collector Beercan collector is online now
Eric
E.ric Bau.mh0er
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: Midwest
Posts: 176
Default

SGC seems to be more in line with the grading I remember in the 80s .
The Goudeys at the top wouldíve been high-grade Goudeys Back then .
No seller Back then would have saddled that second Koufax as very good to excellent
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-08-2023, 03:52 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
+j +R@!|
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beercan collector View Post
SGC seems to be more in line with the grading I remember in the 80s .
The Goudeys at the top wouldíve been high-grade Goudeys Back then .
No seller Back then would have saddled that second Koufax as very good to excellent
All 3 of those 1960 Topps grades by PSA are absolutely bonkers. Again, no hidden creases at all. Just complete and utter incompetence on PSA's part.
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-08-2023, 04:34 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,082
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
All 3 of those 1960 Topps grades by PSA are absolutely bonkers. Again, no hidden creases at all. Just complete and utter incompetence on PSA's part.
Same with my SGC sub, whether or not an aberration. Even allowing for tough grading I was expecting mostly 7s and 8s, possibly a 9 or two. Nothing higher than a 6, including on some nonsport playing cards that were from a gorgeous essentially pristine deck, and a lot of 4s.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-08-2023 at 07:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-08-2023, 05:15 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
+j +R@!|
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
including on
Same with my SGC sub, whether or not an aberration. Even allowing for tough grading I was expecting mostly 7s and 8s, possibly a 9 or two. Nothing higher than a 6, including on some nonsport playing cards that were from a gorgeous essentially pristine deck, and a lot of 4s.
I wonder if you got one of their noobie graders? I think all grading companies have suffered from having to hire new people off the street that know nothing about grading card in order to grade the deluge of ultra-modern shiny stuff that floods their gates. Unfortunately, these guys have no idea what they're doing, and when they get handed vintage cards, their brains just malfunction. PSA has a lot more of these noobie graders than the other TPGs, just by nature of the current submission landscape of the hobby, but you can still run into them at any TPG on any given day if you're unlucky.
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-08-2023, 06:47 PM
Gorditadogg Gorditadogg is offline
Al Stein
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,790
Default

Anybody can look at a card and see if it is centered. There is no reason to have centering as a factor in deciding a card's grade. Other than the people who say they only collect cards with no qualifiers, what use is it for a grader to say a card is off-center or extra well-centered. Any straight-on pic can tell you that.

I would rather have a well-centered 6 than a 70/30 7, but if SGC is going to bump a card with 6 corners to a 7 because it is 50/50 centered, then that doesn't help me, it just confuses the grade more. Now I have to decide whether it is a bumped up 6 or a true 7.




Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-08-2023, 07:14 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,082
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
I wonder if you got one of their noobie graders? I think all grading companies have suffered from having to hire new people off the street that know nothing about grading card in order to grade the deluge of ultra-modern shiny stuff that floods their gates. Unfortunately, these guys have no idea what they're doing, and when they get handed vintage cards, their brains just malfunction. PSA has a lot more of these noobie graders than the other TPGs, just by nature of the current submission landscape of the hobby, but you can still run into them at any TPG on any given day if you're unlucky.
Must be what happened.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-08-2023, 07:16 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,082
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorditadogg View Post
Anybody can look at a card and see if it is centered. There is no reason to have centering as a factor in deciding a card's grade. Other than the people who say they only collect cards with no qualifiers, what use is it for a grader to say a card is off-center or extra well-centered. Any straight-on pic can tell you that.

I would rather have a well-centered 6 than a 70/30 7, but if SGC is going to bump a card with 6 corners to a 7 because it is 50/50 centered, then that doesn't help me, it just confuses the grade more. Now I have to decide whether it is a bumped up 6 or a true 7.




Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

It's funny. Pre Forman, SGC barely looked at centering, and people by and large hated them for it.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-08-2023, 07:23 PM
Gorditadogg Gorditadogg is offline
Al Stein
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,790
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It's funny. Pre Forman, SGC barely looked at centering, and people by and large hated them for it.
People like to complain about stuff. And most people don't know what they want, they just want something different.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-08-2023, 08:06 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
+j +R@!|
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorditadogg View Post
Anybody can look at a card and see if it is centered. There is no reason to have centering as a factor in deciding a card's grade. Other than the people who say they only collect cards with no qualifiers, what use is it for a grader to say a card is off-center or extra well-centered. Any straight-on pic can tell you that.

I would rather have a well-centered 6 than a 70/30 7, but if SGC is going to bump a card with 6 corners to a 7 because it is 50/50 centered, then that doesn't help me, it just confuses the grade more. Now I have to decide whether it is a bumped up 6 or a true 7.
The same is true of most flaws though. Anyone can see excess print lines, poor registration, lack of color depth, wax stains, rounded corners, etc. Yet these all come into play in the grading process. I don't see why centering should be any different, especially when it is hands down the number one factor that collectors care most about. It shows you how well the card was printed/cut at the factory.

The whole point of having a ranking system in the grading process is to establish a hierarchy for each card's desirability based on it's appearance. The TPGs have largely failed us in this regard. Especially with respect to the attention paid to corners. As a specific example, the difference in the corner standards between a PSA 6 and a PSA 7 today, with their newly established goalposts, is entirely imaginary. What makes a PSA 6 a better card than a PSA 7 has absolutely nothing to do with the corners whatsoever, yet PSA wants to pretend that it does. Eye-appeal matters to everyone and that should be reflected in a card's grade.

Exactly how to evaluate eye appeal could be debated, but at least SGC makes honest attempts to do this. I probably get more half-grades with my PC cards at SGC than I do full grades because of it. And I almost never get half grades at PSA, and when I do encounter them on the marketplace, they're usually OC cards with horrible eye appeal.

Should SGC give full 1 point grade bumps for cards with 50/50 centering and otherwise perfect eye-appeal for the grade level? I don't know. And I'm not sure they'd agree with my claim that I think they sometimes do, but I'm OK with it. A dead-centered "VG" card with no creases and great color & registration with just some honest corner wear should (and will) absolutely outsell a "VG-EX" card with a crease, 80/20 centering, a print line, and square corners. The grading process should reflect that.

The fact that 3s regularly outsell 4s, and sometimes even 4s outsell 6s in the same auctions side-by-side, should be an embarrassment to the TPGs. But it's probably too late to change things now (though that clearly hasn't stopped them from moving the goalposts multiple times already).
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it.

Last edited by Snowman; 12-08-2023 at 08:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-08-2023, 08:31 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,082
Default

Beckett tried to get away from the overweight given to corners, and for a while it was successful, but it seems to be falling of the TPG cliff.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-08-2023, 11:20 PM
Gorditadogg Gorditadogg is offline
Al Stein
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,790
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
The same is true of most flaws though. Anyone can see excess print lines, poor registration, lack of color depth, wax stains, rounded corners, etc. Yet these all come into play in the grading process. I don't see why centering should be any different, especially when it is hands down the number one factor that collectors care most about. It shows you how well the card was printed/cut at the factory.

The whole point of having a ranking system in the grading process is to establish a hierarchy for each card's desirability based on it's appearance. The TPGs have largely failed us in this regard. Especially with respect to the attention paid to corners. As a specific example, the difference in the corner standards between a PSA 6 and a PSA 7 today, with their newly established goalposts, is entirely imaginary. What makes a PSA 6 a better card than a PSA 7 has absolutely nothing to do with the corners whatsoever, yet PSA wants to pretend that it does. Eye-appeal matters to everyone and that should be reflected in a card's grade.

Exactly how to evaluate eye appeal could be debated, but at least SGC makes honest attempts to do this. I probably get more half-grades with my PC cards at SGC than I do full grades because of it. And I almost never get half grades at PSA, and when I do encounter them on the marketplace, they're usually OC cards with horrible eye appeal.

Should SGC give full 1 point grade bumps for cards with 50/50 centering and otherwise perfect eye-appeal for the grade level? I don't know. And I'm not sure they'd agree with my claim that I think they sometimes do, but I'm OK with it. A dead-centered "VG" card with no creases and great color & registration with just some honest corner wear should (and will) absolutely outsell a "VG-EX" card with a crease, 80/20 centering, a print line, and square corners. The grading process should reflect that.

The fact that 3s regularly outsell 4s, and sometimes even 4s outsell 6s in the same auctions side-by-side, should be an embarrassment to the TPGs. But it's probably too late to change things now (though that clearly hasn't stopped them from moving the goalposts multiple times already).
Cards don't get bonus points for not having wax stains or print lines. The idea is to start at 10 and then subtract for flaws.

I personally don't think the grading process should be an eye appeal measurement, rather it should be a technical review of the card. It definitely should not be an estimate of the market value.

A 50/50 card with good color and clear focus can sell for double the average price for the grade. And that's the way it should be. We don't need SGC bumping up high eye-appeal cards to the next grade to try and estimate their market value. That would be a mess.



Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-09-2023, 07:27 AM
theshowandme's Avatar
theshowandme theshowandme is offline
Don
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 275
Default

If the same card was graded a 5 by both PSA and SGC, I would bet my life that over 10+ sales the PSA holder would win in average/median/max sales
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-09-2023, 07:42 AM
cgjackson222's Avatar
cgjackson222 cgjackson222 is offline
Charles Jackson
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,371
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theshowandme View Post
If the same card was graded a 5 by both PSA and SGC, I would bet my life that over 10+ sales the PSA holder would win in average/median/max sales
I don't think anyone is disputing that. But I think this thread is about which TPG you should choose for grading a card. And if you can get a significantly higher grade from an SGC, you are probably better off going that route.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-09-2023, 07:44 AM
theshowandme's Avatar
theshowandme theshowandme is offline
Don
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 275
Default Do PSA slabs *really* sell for more than SGC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgjackson222 View Post
I don't think anyone is disputing that. But I think this thread is about which TPG you should choose for grading a card. And if you can get a significantly higher grade from an SGC, you are probably better off going that route.

The title does not match the arguments being made.

If we are talking about who is more strict on vintage and pre war, itís likely PSA

If we are talking about who commands the premium for the same card, itís likely PSA

If we are talking about who grades more consistently, I do not know the answer. I see cards +/- 1 or more grades all the time when people crack and grade the card back and forth

If we are talking about who I would send the majority of my cards to, itís SGC for a number of reasons (price, look, etc.)

We need to know what we are discussing lol

Last edited by theshowandme; 12-09-2023 at 07:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-09-2023, 07:57 AM
cgjackson222's Avatar
cgjackson222 cgjackson222 is offline
Charles Jackson
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,371
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theshowandme View Post
The title does not match the arguments being made.

If we are talking about who is more strict on vintage and pre war, itís likely PSA

If we are talking about who commands the premium for the same card, itís likely PSA

If we are talking about who grades more consistently, I do not know the answer. I see cards +/- 1 or more grades all the time when people crack and grade the card back and forth

If we are talking about who I would send the majority of my cards to, itís SGC for a number of reasons (price, look, etc.)

We need to know what we are discussing lol
If you want to know what we are discussing, you may wish to consider reading more than the title.

Last edited by cgjackson222; 12-09-2023 at 07:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-09-2023, 07:59 AM
theshowandme's Avatar
theshowandme theshowandme is offline
Don
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 275
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgjackson222 View Post
If you want to know what we are discussing, you may wish to consider reading more than the title.

I am an American, I only read headlines!

That said, good discussion. Iíll continue to send cards to SGC like many here
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-09-2023, 08:45 AM
Vintagedeputy's Avatar
Vintagedeputy Vintagedeputy is online now
Jim Reynolds
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Glen Allen, Va.
Posts: 992
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorditadogg View Post
Anybody can look at a card and see if it is centered. There is no reason to have centering as a factor in deciding a card's grade.
I disagree 110%. A nicely centered card with soft corners is much more appealing that an off-centered card with sharp corners. I think centering is extremely important and I'd venture to say that most would agree.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-09-2023, 01:37 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
+j +R@!|
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorditadogg View Post
Cards don't get bonus points for not having wax stains or print lines. The idea is to start at 10 and then subtract for flaws.

I personally don't think the grading process should be an eye appeal measurement, rather it should be a technical review of the card. It definitely should not be an estimate of the market value.

A 50/50 card with good color and clear focus can sell for double the average price for the grade. And that's the way it should be. We don't need SGC bumping up high eye-appeal cards to the next grade to try and estimate their market value. That would be a mess.



Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

I see what you're saying. That makes sense. I do like their implemention of half grades though too distinguish strong eye appeal for the grade from average to below average. Basically, they're saying the card is technically a 4, but looks better than most other 4s, so they'll give it a 4.5. I think I'm with you though in that maybe they shouldn't say the card is technically a 4, but the eye appeal is so superior that they'll bump it all the way to a 5 instead of a 4.5 for those super nice 4s.

That said, I should reiterate that I don't know if they are in fact doing this. I just suspect it sometimes.
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-09-2023, 05:06 PM
dealme's Avatar
dealme dealme is offline
Mark
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 157
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy View Post
I disagree 110%. A nicely centered card with soft corners is much more appealing that an off-centered card with sharp corners. I think centering is extremely important and I'd venture to say that most would agree.

I may be in the minority, but I prioritize corners over centering. That being the case, it only makes sense that a high grade card would have phenomenal centering. However, it seems to my that centering should be able to be measured objectively, whereas corners and registration cannot be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 12-10-2023, 10:24 AM
Gorditadogg Gorditadogg is offline
Al Stein
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,790
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
I see what you're saying. That makes sense. I do like their implemention of half grades though too distinguish strong eye appeal for the grade from average to below average. Basically, they're saying the card is technically a 4, but looks better than most other 4s, so they'll give it a 4.5. I think I'm with you though in that maybe they shouldn't say the card is technically a 4, but the eye appeal is so superior that they'll bump it all the way to a 5 instead of a 4.5 for those super nice 4s.

That said, I should reiterate that I don't know if they are in fact doing this. I just suspect it sometimes.
I've heard that too. If a grader really wants to move the card up to the next grade but can't because of a specific defect, he gives it a half-grade bump. Those .5 cards can be very nice.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 53B Mantle PSA 4.5.jpg (78.1 KB, 269 views)
File Type: jpg 69T Mantle PSA 6.5.jpg (138.1 KB, 268 views)
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-10-2023, 12:43 PM
JohnP0621 JohnP0621 is offline
John P
Joh.n Per.rotta
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 607
Default PSA vs SGC

Do you have any examples of the reverse. Where SGC graded a card lower than PSA ?

John P
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-10-2023, 01:38 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
+j +R@!|
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnP0621 View Post
Do you have any examples of the reverse. Where SGC graded a card lower than PSA ?

John P
I have a few ultra modern cards that bumped from an SGC 9 or 9.5 to a PSA 10. And that 1970 Topps Hank Aaron I posted above was originally an SGC 7, which PSA graded as a 5 the first time, then they graded it as an 8 the second time.
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-10-2023, 09:43 PM
Vintagedeputy's Avatar
Vintagedeputy Vintagedeputy is online now
Jim Reynolds
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Glen Allen, Va.
Posts: 992
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dealme View Post
I may be in the minority, but I prioritize corners over centering. That being the case, it only makes sense that a high grade card would have phenomenal centering. However, it seems to my that centering should be able to be measured objectively, whereas corners and registration cannot be.
Here's how I tend to look at it. A pack fresh card should in theory be a 10 coming out of the pack, 50/50 centering, with razor sharp corners. With modern production techniques, every single new card should in theory be a 10 (from production) unless made a 9 or 8 or ? by improper handling by the customer.

Vintage cards didn't have the same quality control, so you could have a pack fresh, 70/30 card that has razor sharp corners for the next 50 years because it was handled and stored correctly by the buyer. It'll never be a 10 though because it left the factory in less than perfect condition. Proper centering is a product of production. Sharp corners are a product of customer handling and storage. To me, centering is more important with vintage because it wasn't always a guarantee.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-10-2023, 11:05 PM
icurnmedic icurnmedic is online now
Thomas
Th0mas Ch.urch
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Lenoir, NC
Posts: 528
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnP0621 View Post
Do you have any examples of the reverse. Where SGC graded a card lower than PSA ?

John P
I have a T206 Cobb that was purchased in a SGC 1.5, cracked (not by me) and sent to PSA and came back as a 2.5 which for the record I believe is probably accurate. Purchased it here around 3 years ago.

Thomas
__________________
Successful transactions: sycks22, charlietheextervminator, Scocs, Thromdog, trdcrdkid, mybuddyinc, troutbum97, Natedog, Kingcobb, usernamealreadytaken, t206fanatic, asoriano, rsdill2, hatchetman325, cobbcobb13, dbfirstman, Blunder19, Scott L. ,Eggoman, ncinin, vintagewhitesox, aloondilana, btcarfagno, ZiggerZagger, blametony, shammus, Kris19, brewing, rootsearcher60, Pat R , sportscardpete , Leon , OriolesHOF , Gobucsmagic74, Pilot172000, Chesbro41, scmavl,t206kid,3-2-count,GoldenAge50s

Last edited by icurnmedic; 12-12-2023 at 10:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-11-2023, 08:51 AM
bobbyw8469's Avatar
bobbyw8469 bobbyw8469 is offline
Robert Williams
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 8,985
Default

I dunno...that stain is pretty significant.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-11-2023, 08:52 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,030
Default

PSA probably sells a little better overall because they have much greater marketing than SGC. Personally, I buy cards and not holders.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg csg3.jpg (195.3 KB, 131 views)
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-11-2023, 09:10 AM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 7,216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
PSA probably sells a little better overall because they have much greater marketing than SGC. Personally, I buy cards and not holders.
The wisdom of our leader.
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER.

GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES


274/1000 Monster Number


Over*900* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-21.
Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served.
If you want fries with your order, just speak up.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:49 PM.


ebay GSB