Forgotten Set: T205s

[Vintagecatcher]

I have noticed that over the years, while there has been a great deal of discussion as well as research regarding the T206 set with regards to "possible" front/back combinations, there has been very little discussion with regards to the T205 set along these lines.

Lew Lipset mentions in his Encyclopedia of Tobacco cards that "there are 11 different brands advertised on the backs of T205."

My question to the board is: Is it possible to find any player with all 11 backs?



Thanks in advance,


Patrick

[Bosox Blair]

Fine question! I don't know the answer, but I hope someone does because I'd like to know too.

Cheers,
Blair

[frohme]

Counting variations (e.g. factory, color) there are at least 17 different backs for T205s. If you leave out the factory designations, it may well be possible. There are board members that have studied the set for a long time that may provide specifics to that effect.

I'd hazard a guess that for a specific front pose, you'd certainly not find it with all 17 backs as there appear to be exclusivity rules within certain of the backs. SC Fac 42 for example seems to be either black or red, but not both. Not sure what other patterns there are as I've only been tracking a small subset (14 cards) of the set for about 2 years and have still seen only ~ 1/3 of the (theoretically) possible F/B combos.

[Vintagecatcher]

I'm curious as to whether any player can be found with the 11 brands?

I'm not interested in the factories or print color variations of the backs.

Is there any players that can be found with all the the 11 different brands: American Beauty, Broad Leaf, Cycle, Drum, Hassan, Hindu, Honest, Piedmont, Polar Bear, Sovereign, and Sweet Caporal.

Thanks again,


Patrick

[Wite3]

Patrick,
I have studied this set extensively and reported on it here (a simple search might turn up some of my musings)...the answer to your question is no. No front combination comes with all backs. A few come close but none have been confirmed with all 11 advertising backs and honestly, I do not think it is possible.

Hope this helps. Search the archives...t205s do get discussed every few months.

Joshua

[Vintagecatcher]

FYI,

I did a search that produced limited results prior to my posting. I also have been on the board since the early days, and I do read all the "card related" threads.

I was hoping for a response that had a little more factual information.

Thanks anyhow.

Patrick

[Wite3]

Patrick,
I have tons of facts and data...what exactly are you looking for?
There are no cards with all advertising known.

Joshua

[Vintagecatcher]

I follow the reasoning behind Ted Z and others research on why certain front/back combinations are not possible with regards to the T206 set.

I have yet to hear or see published why no player can be found with each of the 11 different brand backs in the T205 set.

What concerns me is that you say it's not possible, and then you say some come close, but none has ever been confirmed?

What makes it impossible?

Thanks again,

Patrick

[Leon]

Good questions Patrick. I would like to know if there are the following:

Young with Hindu or Drum
Cobb with Hindu or Drum
Johnson with Drum

I know there is a Johnson with Hindu .


regards
leon

[Wite3]

Patrick,
The printing process of T205s was much more involved than the T206s.

There is a far less sample size for T205s. I would estimate the print run of all T205s at less than 1/4 of that of the T206s. They just are not as readily available as t206s so research is difficult. With that being said, I have spent the last 15 years researching front/back combinations. I have have thousands of pieces of data and a have several theories as to the print runs for T205.

First off, T205 went through at least 5 different print runs and as many as 9. by looking at the advertising backs and the cards that they come with, you can tell that several of the SPs were substituted for the minor league cards or each other. Also, the printings seem to have substituted whole sheets for the different advertising backs. By comparing back advertising, some pictures do appear. Unfortunately, these patterns are extremely tough to figure out because new front/back are still being found. In fact, for several years I had thought Carrigan should come with Polar Bear advertising but I had never seen one. Then two hit ebay within a month. New Drum backs were just found within the last year as well. They seem to follow the patterns that I have seen. But as Ted can tell you, everything is just theory until a complete set of sheets is found (which I doubt will ever happen).

What I can tell you is that Austin seems to come with the most advertisers missing only Hindu. I am fairly certain that he will never be found with a Hindu because all Hindu backed cards are not available with American Beauty, Broadleaf, Cycle, Drum or Hassan backs (which Austin does come with). This is true with all the Hindu backs I have ever seen and seems to be the pattern.

Other patterns exist in the set with regards to the different factory printings and different color printings of the advertisements (i.e. player fronts with Hassan Fact. 30 backs are never found with Sweet Caporal Black backs).

I hope this helps and explains a bit more.

Joshua

[Wite3]

Leon,
According to my back information...

Young is possible with a Hindu (actually likely because he fits the above pattern). He might be possible with a Drum.

Cobb is not possible with a Hindu, might come with a Drum.

Johnson does come with a Hindu, therefore he is probably not available with a Drum.

Hope this helps.

Joshua

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Patrick,
The printing process of T205s was much more involved than the T206s.

There is a far less sample size for T205s. I would estimate the print run of all T205s at less than 1/4 of that of the T206s. They just are not as readily available as t206s so research is difficult. With that being said, I have spent the last 15 years researching front/back combinations. I have have thousands of pieces of data and a have several theories as to the print runs for T205.

First off, T205 went through at least 5 different print runs and as many as 9. by looking at the advertising backs and the cards that they come with, you can tell that several of the SPs were substituted for the minor league cards or each other. Also, the printings seem to have substituted whole sheets for the different advertising backs. By comparing back advertising, some pictures do appear. Unfortunately, these patterns are extremely tough to figure out because new front/back are still being found. In fact, for several years I had thought Carrigan should come with Polar Bear advertising but I had never seen one. Then two hit ebay within a month. New Drum backs were just found within the last year as well. They seem to follow the patterns that I have seen. But as Ted can tell you, everything is just theory until a complete set of sheets is found (which I doubt will ever happen).

What I can tell you is that Austin seems to come with the most advertisers missing only Hindu. I am fairly certain that he will never be found with a Hindu because all Hindu backed cards are not available with American Beauty, Broadleaf, Cycle, Drum or Hassan backs (which Austin does come with). This is true with all the Hindu backs I have ever seen and seems to be the pattern.

Other patterns exist in the set with regards to the different factory printings and different color printings of the advertisements (i.e. player fronts with Hassan Fact. 30 backs are never found with Sweet Caporal Black backs).

I hope this helps and explains a bit more.

Joshua

Hi Joshua,

Thanks so much for this! Very informative post!!!

Cheers,
Blair

[obcmac]

I would echo the idea of the original post. We have Scot Reader's T206 manifesto, the t207 guide put together by Tim Newcomb and others, but I've never seen a comprehensive player by player listing with the available backs for t205's (along with # of each card seen). Is that one of the secret files no one shares? Josh has been very generous with his information though...and if we need to nominate a writer, I'd vote for him.

Mac

[Vintagecatcher]

Josh,

Thanks so much for the information. This is the kind of information I was hoping to learn more about.

As Mac mentioned in the previous response, I too wasn't sure if this information was one of the hobbies well kept secrets or simply a case where all the research still needs to develop further.

Thanks again for all the candid responses.


Patrick

[Wite3]

Guys,
I am close on writing an article detailing but as I said before, there are still cards being found and added. A lot of it is speculation. This summer (after my wedding) I will sit down and enter everything into an excel file and write some about this set. It is a lot more convoluted and intricate than either the T206 or T207 sets.

Joshua

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Joshua this is really wonderful information. I printed it for my T205 file. I have collected the set off and on since 1976. Rather than an article I would hope you might consider a booklet on the set. I would gladly be a buyer!

Also, a T207 study was mentioned, is this available anywhere?

[Tcards-Please]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Joshua this is really wonderful information. I printed it for my T205 file. I have collected the set off and on since 1976. Rather than an article I would hope you might consider a booklet on the set. I would gladly be a buyer!

Also, a T207 study was mentioned, is this available anywhere?

Mike

David M was kind enough to post this link. If you scroll to the bottom, you will see the SGC Collectors Magazine with some really good information on T205s.

http://tinyurl.com/pacsw5 (pw=aloha)

Sorry Joshua, I know that it hits a nerve with you.

r/
Frank

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Thanks Frank!

[scottglevy]

Congrats on your upcoming Wedding Josh!!!

[frohme]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Joshua this is really wonderful information. I printed it for my T205 file. I have collected the set off and on since 1976. Rather than an article I would hope you might consider a booklet on the set. I would gladly be a buyer!

Also, a T207 study was mentioned, is this available anywhere?

Hey Mike,

Tim Newcomb did this study a few years back - you can find the articles in VCBC volumes 37 and 38 if I recall. I still recommend them every chance I get and thank Tim for the excellent work. Though it was done more than 5 years ago, its still very relevant.

--
Mike

[nebboy]

Thanks for the link to the SGC Collectors Magazine info

[ethicsprof]

Looking forward to your T205 pub Josh.
It is truly needed.

best,
barry

[Wite3]

Thanks Frank, Scott, and Barry...

-Joshua