What's your opinion on owning altered cards?

[Brianruns10]

Hey all,

I'm a 52 topps collector. I collect raw cards, and it is my goal to one day have a Mantle card. The best I could hope for would be a card in poor or fair condition, but I still hope to obtain one with a fair amount of eye appeal. One possibility I hadn't considered though was buying an altered card. Since it would be for my personal collection and my own enjoyment, I figure I could live with this compromise, as opposed to if I were an investor.

What about the rest of you? Do any of you collect altered examples of cards you might otherwise not be able to afford?

[Republicaninmass]

While I'd not overpay for one, I dont see an issue owning a nice one. The consensus disagrees as 52 mantles altered with eye appeal are garnering some crazy prices. I cant figure it out. Maybe the buyer feels it might pass psa one day? I can only think with the supply of unaltered copies, these altered copies will fall out of favor with collectors, and priced come back to earth. I have no skin in the game

[hcv123]

From a market value perspective altered cards in general are poor investments. If you were talking just about any other 52 there wouldn't even be a "but", but you are talking about a 52 Mantle - the poster card for post war cards. If you get a nice eye appeal "A", I think you'll be okay.
For myself, I would tend to make exception for a super rare card that doesn't get offered sooner than one I couldn't currently afford.

[ullmandds]

I kinda agree with the op! I'm becoming more and more disenfranchised with my collection of high dollar slabs...and I get exponentially more enjoyment flipping through my binders. I also would love an early mantle for my binder and am warming to the idea of an altered copy.

[bnorth]

I would get the Altered card if the price was right.

The big plus is you know it is altered. I would guess the number of completely unaltered 52 Mantles is small and shrinking in size all the time. Just one card restorer admitted to working several hundred of them and that number is from a long time ago.

[egri]

I have a few cards that are altered. I don't mind, as I think it makes the colors pop more (it shows up better in person), and it certainly made them cheaper to acquire. That being said, I do keep in mind that if I ever need to sell, the trimming will be reflected in the sale price.

[conor912]

If I knew it was altered, paid accordingly, and couldn’t tell what the alteration was, I would absolutely pull the trigger.

[36GoudeyMan]

FWIW, I look at it this way: I own a few restored comics, but they are identified as such, with the nature of the restoration disclosed. I can get a slightly restored, barely touched Golden Age comic for a fraction (a medium fraction, not a tiny fraction) if I am willing to accept a comic with restoration like "staples cleaned" or "slight color touch on spine." I used to care what other collectors thought of "polluting" a pristine collection with some altered copies, but I frankly enjoy what I have and could care less what others think. If I ever sell, I would absolutely call attention to the documented alteration and let the buyer make a choice. I'm not in it to profit, so if the market for restored comics slips, I'm still OK having had them in my collection. I think altered cards may be heading that way, although slowly, and as long as there is disclosure. Good luck!!!

[ZiggerZagger]

I think it really depends on the Collector, but in particular depends on the card in question.

I've tended to avoid cards with Qualifiers and AA designations typically. It rankles my OCD...
But I ran across this E90-1 Cobb for my Cobb run last year, and for the eye appeal and 1k price, I just had no reason to say no.
I've enjoyed it, and have no plans to 'upgrade' it for a numerically graded copy, for what would cost a few times the price I'm sure.

I hope you find a '52 Mantle you'll be similarly happy with!

[Peter_Spaeth]

No thanks.

Doesn't bother me. I collect only raw cards and not for the investment. I wouldn't pay for one but also wouldn't throw one out if I came across one.

[Leon]

I prefer not to own them but have a few. As long as they are known when bought then it's ok for me.

**It's the millions of fraudulently altered cards in SGC and PSA numeric holders...as well as Beckett, I am concerned about.

.

[sportscardpete]

I'll take an A. Especially if it is something like an eraser on the back of a card.

[packs]

I wouldn't mind owning an "Authentic" card like a 52 Mantle but I would have terms. I would not be interested in a card with trimmed borders and corners made to look nice. But I would be interested if it was missing a corner or recolored or something.

[Seven]

I've purchased a couple of altered cards because of their eye appeal and the fact that they were almost too good to pass up at the prices I acquired them at. In the midst of the COVID boom, I bought a low graded 53 Bowman Mantle, but never got it as it was stolen from me. After being bummed about the situation for a while, I stumbled across an altered version of the card, for about half the price that I paid for the low graded one, and bought it instantly.

I think it's really up to you as the collector. Altered cards do offer the benefit of a lower price point, and it makes it a little bit easier to get a card you want, that looks presentable. I try to buy non altered cards when I can, but like I said sometimes there are deals that are almost too good to pass up. Or the struggle of finding a price point on a high dollar card that you wouldn't normally be able to get. As someone that eventually wants to own a 52 Topps Mantle as well, I can relate to it.

[riggs336]

I don't seek them out, but I don't mind having a nice looking one like this.

[steve B]

I have a few. I think as others have said, an altered card at an altered card price with the alteration known is fine. I'd prefer unaltered, and avoid them more on the generally cheap cards I buy. But if a difficult card came up altered and at a good price I'd be interested.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Brianruns10

Since it would be for my personal collection and my own enjoyment, I figure I could live with this compromise, as opposed to if I were an investor.

In my view this answers your question, and is a great statement as to why a true collector collects-personal enjoyment. So I would think given your budgetary constraints it would be a no brainer to go for the one that has the best eye appeal. And for your bonus enjoyment, take satisfaction in knowing you will end up with a nice looking card for a fraction of the price of what a comparable looking "non-altered" card would have cost, which BTW IMO more likely than not received the grade it did only after having been "worked on".

[Exhibitman]

If you collect PSA graded cards odds are you already have a few.

I don't care as long as the card fits my collection and is the right price. I will usually just bust out the "A" cards and put them in my albums. Hell, I picked up this 1965 Golazo Pele recently and it is as altered as it gets:

[tschock]

Originally Posted by 36GoudeyMan

FWIW, I look at it this way: I own a few restored comics, but they are identified as such, with the nature of the restoration disclosed. I can get a slightly restored, barely touched Golden Age comic for a fraction (a medium fraction, not a tiny fraction) if I am willing to accept a comic with restoration like "staples cleaned" or "slight color touch on spine." I used to care what other collectors thought of "polluting" a pristine collection with some altered copies, but I frankly enjoy what I have and could care less what others think. If I ever sell, I would absolutely call attention to the documented alteration and let the buyer make a choice. I'm not in it to profit, so if the market for restored comics slips, I'm still OK having had them in my collection. I think altered cards may be heading that way, although slowly, and as long as there is disclosure. Good luck!!!

Jeff,

I think for the most part 'restored' is a subset of 'altered', but I think the key is to defining the terms. I personally don't think that "staples cleaned" is 'altered', BUT it is 'restored'. Rebuilding pages is both 'altered' and 'restored', again IMO. But the key point is to define what is restored and what is altered (even if I didn't agree with the definitions).

For cards, we are currently and more closely equating the two terms. Removing pencil marks is an alteration, not restoration which would be more technically accurate. Once we better define the distinction within the hobby as a whole, 'restoration' might be more accepted. Assuming disclosure, of course. And another money making scheme for TPGs.

[drcy]

I've never liked deceptively trimmed cards. Wouldn't do that.

However, I've owned altered cards on the order of low-grade cards with pen and pencil marks, not deceptively trimmed, etc.

I've never had an interest in deceptively altered cards (ala PWCC), but I'd imagine there might be cases where I'd buy one, if the card is particularly special or rare and the price was right.

[almostdone]

I don’t seek them out but if the seller knew and disclosed as well as reflected in the price it honestly wouldn’t bother me. I do understand why it would bother some though especially if the only purchase slabbed cards. Since I collect lower grade raw with nice eye appeal for the sake of collecting and not investment it doesn’t bother me.

Here is an example I actually bought from another member here years ago. I was looking to make this display. The magazine was a gift to me and I already owned the Musial but was looking for a nice Williams that wasn’t expensive. A fellow member sold me this Williams which had come back from PSA as trimmed. He said he had purchased it in a large lot with the intention of grading and flipping. Instead of passing the card on without disclosing he took the financial hit and sold it to me for a song.

Display came out great in my opinion and it still on display in my card room.
Drew

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by 36GoudeyMan

...I frankly enjoy what I have...

Ultimately, that's the most important thing. Collecting (cards, comics, etc.) can be quite fun when it's not a competition.

[ASF123]

I would guess the number of completely unaltered 52 Mantles is small and shrinking in size all the time.

Just like the cards themselves!

[perezfan]

It's not my cup of tea...

But for those of you who like 'em trimmed and altered, there's a slew of Cracker Jacks in the current Heritage auction to wet your whistle.

Only a week to go, and no signs of warning, disclosure, addendum or withdrawal on the part of Heritage. Here's a preview...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

It's not my cup of tea...

But for those of you who like 'em trimmed and altered, there's a slew of Cracker Jacks in the current Heritage auction to wet your whistle.

Only a week to go, and no signs of warning, disclosure, addendum or withdrawal on the part of Heritage. Here's a preview...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

Would it surprise you if SGC had pulled a PSA and confirmed the grades?

[prewarsports]

I look at it this way. If it is "Authentic" because a kid erased a pencil letter on the back or something like that, and you can get a card that looks like a 7 for the price of a beat-up 1, I would prefer that ALL DAY!

Some altered cards to me are hard passes, but depending on the alteration, some are great values. Especially if the "alteration" is something like a colored in corner or other factor that does not affect the integrity of the card like a trim job or something with malicious intent to deceive.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Would it surprise you if SGC had pulled a PSA and confirmed the grades?

Not in the least. The sleaze factor is about equal.

What would pleasantly surprise me is if Heritage would do the right thing, based on the conclusive evidence provided by BODA.

At a bare minimum:
Let the auctions continue, but with addendums in red font, linking the evidence of alteration. Also allow people to retract any bids placed prior to the addendum being posted.

At a more expected level:
Withdraw each of the lots revealed to be altered. People have already placed bids based on the premise that these cards were legitimate. Some might not even see an addendum, unless they were to revisit the page and re-read the descriptions.

[Jobu]

I have several As that I like quite a bit. If my budget has me looking at an A that looks great or a 1 that looks rough, I think going with the A can be a good thing. If I am able to find a 1 or a 2 with good eye appeal I would usually prefer those, but picking up an A the looks like a 4 still gives you a great card to look at. (I am not interested in As that are badly trimmed or have another alteration that is hard not to notice.)

[Sean]

My two favorite cards in my collection are Authentics. Both seem to be hand cut from sheets. I could never find one of them in a number grade, and the other would be unaffordable if graded. So no, it doesn't bother me at all that they are considered altered.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I have several As that I like quite a bit. If my budget has me looking at an A that looks great or a 1 that looks rough, I think going with the A can be a good thing. If I am able to find a 1 or a 2 with good eye appeal I would usually prefer those, but picking up an A the looks like a 4 still gives you a great card to look at. (I am not interested in As that are badly trimmed or have another alteration that is hard not to notice.)

That's were I was too. I hadn't seen any nice looking 1's, so I went with a card graded A.

[FrozenInferno]

Originally Posted by perezfan

It's not my cup of tea...

But for those of you who like 'em trimmed and altered, there's a slew of Cracker Jacks in the current Heritage auction to wet your whistle.

Only a week to go, and no signs of warning, disclosure, addendum or withdrawal on the part of Heritage. Here's a preview...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

There is a big distinction between buying trimmed cards in slabs with number grades and buying cards in Authentic Altered or A slabs.

If the alterations are caught and the slab discloses that information and somebody wants to own the card badly enough or doesn’t necessarily care one way or the other as long as it’s real then I have no issue with collectors buying those cards. I don’t own any personally but I would absolutely buy them as well if it was the right card for the right price. At least I’d be making an informed decision.

It goes without saying the trimmed and altered stuff that isn’t caught and shouldn’t be in numbered slabs is definitely a massive problem.

[Yoda]

I believe it all has to do with the psychology of the buyer. If he decides he can live with it prior alterations, knowing the card's limitations and save bucks in the process, then why not? If this is not the route other buyers wish to follow and knowing full well what they are buying, then power to them.

It shows the overpowering influence and power the TPGers have over the entire industry. For those who collect only raw cards with no intention to ever sell, their chances of reaping huge gains may not be there but peace of mind must be.

When I started a retail business back in the 90's, there were no graded cards, Then, when PSA launched, graded card began trickling into the marketplace, The debate, still resonating today, was whether TPG was necessary. The overwhelming opinion was negative. Several well-known dealers publicly spoke, saying they would never carry a graded in their inventory. Sure

[prewarsports]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I believe it all has to do with the psychology of the buyer. If he decides he can live with it prior alterations, knowing the card's limitations and save bucks in the process, then why not? If this is not the route other buyers wish to follow and knowing full well what they are buying, then power to them.

It shows the overpowering influence and power the TPGers have over the entire industry. For those who collect only raw cards with no intention to ever sell, their chances of reaping huge gains may not be there but peace of mind must be.

When I started a retail business back in the 90's, there were no graded cards, Then, when PSA launched, graded card began trickling into the marketplace, The debate, still resonating today, was whether TPG was necessary. The overwhelming opinion was negative. Several well-known dealers publicly spoke, saying they would never carry a graded in their inventory. Sure

Yes but this is a two-edged sword. The vast majority of altered cards were done after grading came about in an attempt to capitalize on the value of high grade cards in slabs. Had 3rd party graders never entered the hobby, most of the "authentic" cards would not have been altered in the first place.

[FrankWakefield]

Altered... as in soaked, or pencil marks have been erased off of the back? Bring them on, stack them up, I'm good with those. Trimming annoys me, I don't want those, generally. And really don't like it when ink or color has been added to conceal a blemish.

In general, I'm in agreement with what the OP and the DDS said.


To some extent doesn't slabbing a card alter it; while it's in there you can't really touch it or hold it. Golly, what if a guy gave a girl an engagement ring, but because of great 4 C rating from the GIA the ring has to stay in a safety deposit box? That would be just a few steps removed from slabbing a diamond ring.

[FrankWakefield]

Altered... as in soaked, or pencil marks have been erased off of the back? Bring them on, stack them up, I'm good with those. Trimming annoys me, I don't want those, generally. And really don't like it when ink or color has been added to conceal a blemish.

In general, I'm in agreement with what the OP and the DDS said.


To some extent doesn't slabbing a card alter it; while it's in there you can't really touch it or hold it. Golly, what if a guy gave a girl an engagement ring, but because of great 4 C rating from the GIA the ring has to stay in a safety deposit box? That would be just a few steps removed from slabbing a diamond ring.