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  #1  
Old 08-07-2008, 08:08 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Amber

Hello all, my name is Amber, I was directed to this site by Frank Ward. This last weekend I acquired this photo pennant from an elderly friend of our family. He had it tucked away in a dresser drawer and thought I might be interested in having and/or selling it. He is about 92 years old and in very poor health..

Anyway, I am looking for any information you might be able to provide to me regarding this piece of baseball history.. I have researched the player and found lots of information about Joe Tinker.. I am thinking I would like to sell this piece and would like some advice on proper venue for the sale Ebay vs. Auction House? Any idea of value considering the condition? When and how these felt pennants were acquired? What year was it made or distributed? The pennant is about 22" x 9", as you can see from the photos, the condition is certainly not mint.. But it appears to be old, I say that because I know at times things are reproduced later to represent something from the past...

Anyway, I would really appreciate any input, comments or suggestions you might have..

Thank you in advance.
Amber
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:15 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Steve

Click on Old Cardboard above. You have a 1916 "BF2"

Oh sorry, no idea on the value of your particular item. Good luck selling

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:20 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Steve Murray

Too large to be a BF2. Pic looks like a Max Stein. Can't say I've ever seen one before.

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:24 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I think that is Ed Reulbach in the photo on there, and not Joe Tinker.


A great pennant!! But it is definitely NOT a BF2 pennant.

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:24 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: leon

This is a large type BF2. It is very rare and very valuable. I hate to put a solid value on it because you almost never see them trade but I will say north of $3,000.00.....and maybe a few times that..... A Huggins just sold in the recent Mastro Live Auction for about 8k, or so....It was in about ex-mt condition and beautiful....auction house would be the way to go ..... hope this helps

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:25 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Looks like a Ferguson Bakery Photo Prize Pannant...VERY RARE and this may be the only Tinker known. I would guess it's in the $3,000+ range for this pennant.

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:30 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: bcornell



from left to right: collector, BF2 Tinker, Amber

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:31 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Dan & Leon both hit the nail on the head. The Tinker photo is the same one used for Tinker in the M101-4 & 5 sets (as well as the regular BF2 pennants). It is one of the "prize" pennants associated with the BF2 set. They are very rare and usually sell very strongly. Yours has some pretty significant creasing of the photo portion which would probably lower the value to the range mentioned by Leon, if the photo portion were stronger it would be in the $6-8,000 range.

Overall a very neat piece.
-Rhett

Just for reference here is a "regular" BF2 for comparison (they are roughly 5-3/4" in length)...

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:32 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Dan Bretta

HAHA! I wonder how many emails she's gotten already?

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  #10  
Old 08-07-2008, 08:34 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

BF2's are Baseball and Movie Stars, in Mr. Burdick's ACC. 8 1/4" long. The Standard Catalog comes closer to their true size, which is close to 6" long.


The pennant above is much bigger. It is a Ferguson Bakery Photo Prize. It took 50 tickets from 5 cent loaves of bread. Leon is right about them being quite rare and valuable. I think that a BF2 designation would be incorrect. And I still think that is pitcher Ed Reulbach on the photo, not short stop Joe Tinker.

3k is closer to value... I think the condition of the pennant and the wrong photo would result in it selling for less than Rhett's estimation.

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:37 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Looks like Joe Tinker to me.

img src=""

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:37 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Amber

Ok then, I will start my research on large BF2 Ferguson Baker Photo Pennant.. Not really sure how I should take the last response.. I thought this was the proper venue for questions about sports memorabilia, perhaps I was mis-led.. I apologize if my question is in any way inappropriate for this forum.
A

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:37 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: bcornell

Leon's correct that an auction house is the way to go. Sorting through an inbox full of offers is such a drag... Cool item!


Bill

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:39 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

What is with this board's widespread fascination with Ed Reulbach? There are plenty of other great pitchers sans Cooperstown plaque to develop a fixation with! I never understood that.

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:40 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Amber, you came to the right place and Frank means no harm...he's wrong about the photo though

Send it to one of the good auction houses and you'll get top dollar for it.

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:44 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Steve Murray

If BF2, small or large, is 1916 how can this be Reulbach who last played for the Cubs in 1913?

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:52 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Steve Murray

OK, so the pic isn't Max Stein but you can see my confusion.

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Old 08-07-2008, 08:59 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I've studied Reulbach for years. I still think it is him. I see the post below me. I still think it looks like Reulbach, not Tinker. Makes me wonder if Paul's SN card has the wrong caption. I've been wrong before... still think that's Reulbach.



Now Steve has a valid point. Ed is long gone from the Cubs in 1916, which is the date attributed to these. I know only a bit about the Ferguson felts. I have a BF2 that has a wrong photo... so I know they got mixed up. Tinker goes to Cincinnati in 1913, then to the Chicago Whales for 1914 and 1915, then back to the Cubs for only 7 games in 1916. It is possible that in 1916 the pennants have the old stars from the Cubs' WS teams. So the idea of it not being able to be Reulbach isn't a stretch of plausibility. McGraw is on these big felts, he'd long quit playing. Huggins is on them, and 1916 was his last year. Reulbach is pitching for the Braves in 1916.


It is NOT a BF2. It is a close cousin. A more valuable one.

That doesn't look like Tinker to me, but it certainly looks like the pitching form, angular face, and nose, of Ed Reulbach.

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:00 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: paulstratton

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:01 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Amber

I certainly don't see how the photo could or would have been replaced. It looks quite like it belongs on the piece... I suppose removing old photo and replacing with yet another old photo is possible, but it still has his name on the pennant... Humm My response above was directed to the "chum" photo... Not sure why that was necessary, but i'm new here and I suppose I should get a little tougher skin...

A.

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:04 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Amber... I'm not saying that a photo was removed and replaced.


I'm saying that on felts, once in a while someone at the assembly point glued the wrong photo on the wrong felt.

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:07 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Steve

Amber, The chum photo was a juvenile/whinie post. Pardon, we're "grown" men that collect baseball cards and if someone gets the jump on a great opportunity, well... We often kick and stomp.

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:07 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Amber,

To set you straight:

--The "Chum" photo is actually not a joke at your expense. It's just our way of laughing that you have a great piece on your hands. The person with the "Amber" caption is feeding the "pennant" (chum) to the big fish. "Big Fish", AKA "Whales" are what we call the over-eager collectors who have lots of disposable income to pay big bucks for choice pieces such as your item!

--Nobody is saying that the photo on the pennant isn't original to the item, it's just that items have a long history of using the wrong player's image. This goes back to the hobby's infancy and will continue seemingly forever!

Hope this helps.

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:09 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Amber

Well Paul, looks like your picture is the exact same picture as on the pennant... Same building in the back and everything... So, are we still questioning who is that Cub?

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:10 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Dan Bretta

No question that the photo on your pennant IS Tinker.

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:11 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Here's a photo from a BF2 felt....

The baseball scholars will recognize him.

After they identify him, I'll post the entire felt scan.



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  #27  
Old 08-07-2008, 09:13 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Amber

Thanks for the "chum" explanation.. I was beginning to take it as a negative... And no problem kicking around the photo thing... I am learning so much I am really grateful for your knowledge, as I don't know one thing about this stuff...
A

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:18 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Dan Bretta

It's obviously Buck Weaver on the wrong pennant Frank...that really proves nothing though. Are you also saying that the Sporting News card posted above is wrong too?

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:19 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Steve Murray

Weaver?

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:19 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Righty Williams?

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:21 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Yes sir. Buck Weaver. Easy to see that chin of his.

But he isn't on a 'Weaver' card...



The 'Wambsganss' SN card actually depicts Fritz Coumbe. I don't know if there are other mistakes, or not. I don't know about that Tinker card. Maybe it is Tinker in both. But after years of looking at Reulbach images that sure looks like him on that purple non-BF2 pennant, to me. Tonight. Maybe some Cubs photos could change my mind on that.

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:21 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Steve Murray

Famous & Barr. No.177
Lifted from ebay

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:23 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Wow! This image looks like it's been recycled more than that Hank Aaron pic featured on his 1969 Topps card (and two other Topps issues as I recall).

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Old 08-07-2008, 09:26 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Frank, are you saying that the M101 cards are wrong too?

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Old 08-07-2008, 10:17 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Craig W

Hi Amber, congratulations on having such a rare item. A few things you may want to keep in mind:

1. Don't try to repair it or clean it up - leave it just the way it is.

2. There is a link at the top of the page called vintage links. Click on it and then click on Auction sites. It will bring up a list of Auction House that deal in this type of memorabilia. You can talk to them in person and figure out which you'ld like to auction it for you, or you can talk to Leon and others on this forum to get their recommendation of which Auction House to use.

3. Someone made a comment about your email stacking up. That's because we're guessing that a lot of collectors are already contacting you and offering to buy it from you. If you go that route, don't take too little. Leon said $3K, so I'd set that as a minimum. There are collectors out there that we call Whales. To them, $5K or more is nothing considering the rarity of your item.

4. Some of the guys on this forumn are happiest when they can argue about something, so that's what's going on with the debate as to who is on the photo. So get yourself a bowl of popcorn and a cold drink and enjoy the debate!

Best Regards,
Craig

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Old 08-07-2008, 10:35 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Amber

Craig, thank you for your suggestions.. And yes, I have already had one email from and Auction House that would be happy to sell this item.. As far as trying to do anything to clean or preserve, I am not going to touch this thing! I am enjoying the running commentary, seems I created quite the picture debate or discussion.. As this is something quite new to me I am getting an education and valuable information. I really appreciate the honesty and knowledge everyone has provided. I have Googleing my fingers off on 1916 Ferguson Bakery BF2 Photo Premium Pennants!!
Thanks again
Amber

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Old 08-08-2008, 12:00 AM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Alan U

Amber, here's a little write-up from the most recent SCD price guide. As you can see the Tinker isn't even listed so it's probably pretty rare. Yours is probably in less than VG condition.

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Old 08-08-2008, 12:17 AM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Amber

Alan, thank you for that information I really appreciate it! So, if it's not listed in the price guide am I to assume that a) it really is one of these? b) why isn't it listed? because there aren't many/any documented or discovered? This is all a little overwhelming, exciting and such a new learning curve for me!! Amazing what people save in dresser drawers!!
Thanks
A

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Old 08-08-2008, 12:31 AM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Alan U

From what's noted above, I think yours is one of these and it isn't listed as there are very few examples documented.

Leon mentioned in a previous post that a Huggins just sold recently.

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Old 08-08-2008, 03:31 AM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Mike

Nice Piece, Amber!

Seems they are becoming more known now (though still extremely scarce). In the latest Mastro auction catalog - delivered by moving company yesterday -there's an Eddie Collins on p. 69 - lot 179

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=84732&LastLotListing=Lot%20Search%20List&CurrentRow=1

also not in the list Alan posted above.

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Old 08-08-2008, 12:11 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: fkw

Here is another one that sold at REA a couple years ago, for anyone who is interested.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2006/270.html

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Old 08-08-2008, 12:45 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Amber

FKW, thanks for that link... again, I appreciate everyones help on this pennant.. Didn't sleep much last night Googled my fingers off till the wee hours!

Mike, i'll be watching the upcoming auction - thanks for that, seems these are kind of coming out of the woodwork as of late... Where are they all hiding?

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Old 08-08-2008, 01:19 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Steve

Whenever you decide to sell, remember one thing. If this Howie Mandel wannabe approaches, grab your pepper spray and find a cop.

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Old 08-08-2008, 01:33 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: DMcD

*

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Old 08-08-2008, 06:54 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: quan

wow mr. mint looks alot younger in the 2nd pic. big improvement without the goatee and different set of glasses.

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  #46  
Old 10-06-2008, 03:22 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Looks like she took it to ebay and got a very nice price for it.

http://tinyurl.com/3ngy95

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  #47  
Old 10-06-2008, 03:56 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: doug goodman

Look at the bidding history for that auction :

Bidder Bid Amount Bid Time

cwick74( 2560) US $4,050.00 Oct-04-08 17:44:17 PDT
l***e( 41) US $4,000.00 Oct-03-08 22:18:56 PDT
cwick74( 2560) US $3,999.00 Oct-03-08 15:32:51 PDT
l***e( 41) US $3,900.00 Oct-03-08 22:18:44 PDT
l***e( 41) US $3,800.00 Oct-03-08 22:18:31 PDT
l***e( 41) US $3,700.00 Oct-03-08 22:18:20 PDT
l***e( 41) US $3,600.00 Oct-03-08 22:18:05 PDT
l***e( 41) US $3,500.00 Oct-03-08 22:17:53 PDT
l***e( 41) US $3,200.00 Oct-03-08 22:17:41 PDT
l***e( 41) US $3,000.00 Oct-03-08 22:17:29 PDT
l***e( 41) US $2,900.00 Oct-03-08 22:17:15 PDT
l***e( 41) US $2,500.00 Oct-03-08 22:16:56 PDT
b***4( 1052) US $2,001.52 Oct-01-08 17:15:34 PDT

Starting Price US $2,000.00 Sep-25-08 12:07:02 PDT

A text book case of why you shouldn't bid until the very end of the auction.

If cwick74 had not made his first bid at 15:32:51 on Oct 3, l***e would have been the high bidder with his first bid at 22:16:56 on Oct 3. There is a very real chance that cwick74 would have won the item for $2550 had he put in his bid with seconds remaining on the clock, thereby not allowing l***e time to counter bid.

I'll bet Amber is happy the bids didn't happen that way,
Doug

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  #48  
Old 10-06-2008, 05:54 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I think both of them would have been better off to have made a big serious final bit hours or days ahead of the close. It's an auction, not a game. Sniping turns it into a game, and who's dabbled with that who's not lost when they'd have bid even more given time. Second place remorse.

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Old 10-06-2008, 06:16 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Rob D.

No, on eBay, it is not a true auction. More often than not, given eBay's format, sniping makes sense. It's not a game, merely an intelligent strategy.

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Old 10-06-2008, 06:45 PM
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Default Large Joe Tinker Cubs Photo Pennant Questions & Help Please & Thanks

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Yep...I like ebay the way it is, but could you imagine them going to an extended bidding period? Adding 1-5 minutes until no bids are received...

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F/S: T206 SGC 60 & 70 Johnson, Tinker, Baker & Crawford [SOLD] Archive Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T 0 01-05-2007 03:52 PM


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