How does a card like this survive?

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Posted By: Damian Anderson

http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-T206-WHITE-BORDER-NAP-LAJOIE-THROWING-PSA-MINT-9_W0QQitemZ230092885193QQihZ013QQcategoryZ31718QQr dZ1QQcmdZViewItem>

I am sure many here have drooled all over this auction, much like I have. My question is how does a card like this survive the years in such outstanding condition? I bet most T206's didn't look this good right out of the pack. That sucker is snow white. I have sent many T206's in for grading and highest I have been able to achieve are 7's, and they were very nice cards albeit, but in believable condition. I am not saying this card is doctored, matter of fact, for the sake of conversation let's assume it's not. Anyone have any thoughts or stories on how such specimens exist? I am sure there have been finds in the past of mint cards, but does anyone know the stories and circumstance as to how cards like this remained in untouched condition for decades? Cards were at least handled a little bit before they were put away and stored and should exhibit some wear right? This seems on the verge of impossible to me. It boggles my mind!! Thanks for any insight, opinions, or responses.

Damian

Edited to add: Sorry for posting a current auction, but I figured it has had a big fat BIN on it for a day or so, so really not much too expose here except the topic I am curious about.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I would think if someone put this in a book that went untouched for 90+ years it could be possible although I would think it would have to be in a book against a photo and onion skin paper or something like that because the acid in the papers would react with one another. Or maybe in a glassine envelope???

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Here's the link

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D230092885193%26f vi%3D1&item=230092885193&rd=1

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Posted By: MVSNYC

well, being a former T206 PSA 9 "buyer"...i can tell you these cards look amazing in person...my guess also is maybe the card was in the middle of a book or just simply untouched in a drawer...either way it is truly incredible how these cards have survived in such shape...

p.s. IMO, the BIN price is not that outrageous for an upper-level HOFer PSA 9...

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Posted By: Rhys

In the middle of a book is probably right. Most likely a scrapbook with water soluable glue all over the back of it at one time. That is basically the only way corners can stay sharpe like that for almost 100 years. Maybe not, but probably so.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Michael- given that this card is Mint, is perfectly centered, in perfect register, and has bright colors, why wouldn't it be a 10? How is it any worse than your Pastorius, if not every bit as good?

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Posted By: jeffdrum

Barry,
It speaks to the inanity of it all. You need the Hubbell (sp?) telescope to tell the difference between and 9 & 10!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Perhaps, but I would like to know how a "10" is determined. To me a "9" and a "10" are indistinguishable, yet the "10" might sell for triple or quadruple the price.

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Posted By: dan mckee

The card is worth a few hundred dollars to a collector, the label is worth $18,200.00.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

this sounds crazy, but when you see an 8, then a 9, then a 10...you can actually notice a difference with the naked eye...when you get into 9's & 10's...they just are absolute blazers...the image clarity, corners, borders, etc...just jump right at you...

...the tiniest little fray at one corner, or another slight imperfection, could mean the difference between an 8, 9 or a 10.

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Posted By: dennis

dan, good one. barry, i thought you couldn't tell the 8's from the 9's?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Michael- I know it is tough to judge by a scan, but do you see any imperfections on that T206 Lajoie? I don't see anything wrong with it.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think that the difference between an 8 and a 9 is usually one of centering. On the few vintage 10s that I have had, honestly, there is no difference in the corners, just a slightly better centering if anything. The truth is there is a much larger difference between a 7 and an 8 than there is between an 8 and a 10 in my opinion....

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Posted By: MVSNYC

barry, i am super critical...it is very sharp, don't get me wrong, but it is centered alittle to the right, and it is tuff to tell how perfectly sharp the corners are...

obviously, however, it is an extremely high-end card...


MS

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Posted By: MVSNYC

jeff, i have to say that i think the most important factor is sharpness of corners, they (PSA) seem to allow a bit more for slightly off center cards vs. frayed corners...if you remember, the 10 is not perfectly centered, but you cut kill someone with the corners...

i will try to scan it this week.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...who sees the chip of paint missing from the grass? It's either that or a spot of blue that doesn't belong there.


I believe the sharpiest sharp cards were formerly glued into a scrapbook with water soluble paste. Either that, or that had a little help along the way...

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Posted By: barrysloate

I know Michael- the "10" you showed us had impeccable corners, but the front was maybe 55/45 and the back was noticeably off center. I always assumed a card like that could not grade higher than a 9, and that to get a "10" you needed everything to be just right. Again, just trying to understand the criteria.

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Posted By: Steve f

Golly, it's pretty... May be the doggy pee spot on the grass or the loss of yellow at the top border keeping it down. The back looks near perfect.

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Posted By: Mike

8, 9, or 10, it's a beauty. I'd sure like it my office. It sure is striking, when compared to tens of thousands of 2's and 3's we've all seen daily for the last 20 years. Gorgeous !!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

I do see the blue spot just to the left of his hip- is that what cost it a "10"? Again, I have no idea how they evaluate at this level.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

That card's registration is killer.
I know I've never seen his face so well executed, and when you can combine perfect focus with exactly the right levels of ink being layed down its truly amazing what wonderful portraits they turn into. The shading through his face giving the skin tones and day old stubble is extraordinary, and the black levels are perfect!

Daniel

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Posted By: robert a

Damian.

Good question.

I'm wondering how a card goes into a tobacco pack and comes out in 1910 looking this good. Cards shouldn't be in this shape back when they were issued. They were handled, not taken out of a cigarette box and placed into a book that sat around for 98 years.

Rob

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Posted By: MVSNYC

barry- yeah, it is off center a tad bit on the front and more so on the back, again, i'm assuming the rest of the cards amazing attributes were enough to keep it a 10...

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I also am curious about the paint chip in the grass, shouldn't thtat knock it down to a 7? It is fun picking apart a beautiful card, kind of like watching the Miss America pagent.

Lee

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Posted By: MVSNYC

looks like a printing blemish, in which case that is acceptable by PSA even at such a lofty grade.

i have asked the seller to explain "spot"...

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Posted By: Damian Anderson

that this card was unaltered, but after looking at the scan again that bottom edge sure seems peculiar to me. Does anyway else see the waviness of it against the inside of the holder? Hhmmm, I wonder if...

Damian

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I don't think it's trimmed. Look at the scan of the back; it's a slight diamond cut.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

c'mon guys...i love this conspiracy that any card in an 8 or 9 holder has to be altered...

the only thing i see concerning edges on this 9 is a slight diamond cut...no biggie.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

delete

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Posted By: Damian Anderson

I think you dudes is right now that I look again and I agree that it is not trimmed. Not waviness but a tilt on the bottom. Still in school on these matters. Maybe the diamond cut is the reason for the 9 and not a 10 as discussed previously in the thread. Thanks to all who have posted directly in reference to original questions and the "scenic route" it took with these card and in regards to this post. I don't know why, but I didn't consider the book theory, however I still am astounded that the card wasn't handled at least a little between pack and scrapbook or at least in the process of putting it in the scrap book.

Damian

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Posted By: quan

beautiful card with one spot of printing defect, but if it doesn't cross to at least an sgc60 then it's clearly altered. at least 80% of prewar cards in psa4+ holders are problematic.

seriously that printing defect is very distracting, kinda like a dead pixel on your lcd. once you know it's there that's the first thing that your eyes focus on. do we know why there are seemingly alot of high grade lajoie throwing?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"Maybe the diamond cut is the reason for the 9 and not a 10 as discussed previously in the thread."...

guys- keep in mind, achieving a "10" is nearly impossible...only 13 out of 70,000+

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Us "old farts, dinosaurs, or whatever you call us" just laugh at the absurdity of paying 18K
for a single T206 Lajoie card. A Joe Doyle error, a Plank, or half of a Wagner, perhaps, but
a Lajoie....NEVER....regardless of the condition.

The last near complete T206 set (557 cards) I bought cost me....20K....it consisted of 520
cards, plus 37 different Backs (missing only a DRUM) and the overall condition is Vg/Ex to Ex.

This was only a year ago and that's what I call getting my money's worth. I firmly believe in
the "law of large numbers"....it wins everytime.

Dan McKee's one sentence comment in this Thread is a true "SANITY CHECK" for the current
state of economics in this hobby.

TED Z

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Posted By: cmoking

it's all perspective guys. the starving boy in a poor village in a third-world country could get the medicine and the food he needs to survive for less than $1 a day. what do you think he thinks about paying $20,000 for 500 small pieces of cardboard, regardless of how pretty and historic they are? he'd probably puke at the thought.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- there are two different hobbies going on right now, one for the very rich, and another for the rest of us. They have little in common.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I would divide the hobby into three segments.....

Collectors of "NAKED" cards

Collectors of GRADED cards

and Investors of cards

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

First, you asked......

"....it's all perspective guys. the starving boy in a poor village in a third-world country could get
the medicine and the food he needs to survive for less than $1 a day. what do you think he thinks
about paying $20,000 for 500 small pieces of cardboard....."

KING

Sorry to say, but 1000's of miles away, we are not responsible for that kid.....

1st and foremost, we are responsible for our families. I brought up my 2 Daughters, Debbie and Zoe.
I put Debbie thru College and financially helped Zoe and her son, Ron, thru hard times when her hus-
band died.

I am now, paying $20K a year to help Zoe put my Grandson, Ron thru College. And, you ask what do
I think about that "hypothetical kid"....again, he is not my responsibility. My RESPONSIBILITIES as a
human being on this beautiful Earth are to my FAMILY.

I'm always amazed at some of you guys....you cast out comments about other members on this Forum
and you do not know a damn thing about us.

And, now what are your responsibilities ?

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- your three tier analysis is good, and I agree with helping one's family.

But charity towards people we don't know is a good thing too. Even our own Net54 board put together a package for REA to auction, and the proceeds will go to help needy children. I see King's point; there is a lot of suffering in the world and we Americans are worried about square corners.

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Posted By: Mike

My step father kicked me out of the house three days after grduating from high school. Had no car, no job, and no money. Only what what I was wearing. Hitchhiked into town, met a friend, rented an apartment, jot a job. Put myself through school...got married, put two kids through college. Worked hard for 25 years, invested correctly. Retired and started my own successful real estate investment comp. I also devote a couple days a week for charitable work. So, please don't lay the guilt on us about some body on the other side of the earth. i also am part of a group who finance digging fresh water wells in haiti. If I want to spend 5 grand on a baseball card, I feel I've earned the right. Anyone disagree? And by the way, I pay a ton of Taxes.

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Posted By: T E

One way I know of is from untouched estates, which are growing rarer but still exist. I bought out the paper contents of one such place in New England a few years ago and opened a box from the attic that had been buried away only to find several 19th century t cards-only one was baseball. It looked like the original owner had stuck them in this box right after pulling them. Probably had little interest in the cards, was just putting them aside and forgot about them.

There is one fellow I know who pulled a tobacco tin out of an trunk, opened it and found a stack of untouched T206s. This is about five or six years ago. Again, it appeared that the owner was after the tobacco, not the cards, and was putting the cards aside as an after-thought.

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Posted By: leon

First of all that Lajoie is a beautiful card. I am one of the collectors that find it hard to believe that cards that are 100 years old stay in this condition. I do think it can happen but just find it hard to believe. I would bet my right arm (I am left handed ) that not all T206 PSA 8's-PSA 10's are untainted. I think a lot of them are....

Now to comment on the different types of collectors. I don't think you can lump most folks into one category. I am not an investor, that's for sure. I am not a slab collector, that's for sure. I am not "only" a raw collector, that's for sure. I think, I like a lot of others, collect regardless of the plastic.....and love collecting and the history of the game (and the history of the hobby for me) but still look out for decent buys.....Most folks with modest means would find their collections as part of their portfolio of investments, but if every card went down to what I paid I would still be happy. If they lost all of their value I would be very unhappy.

As for the starving children comment. It makes me think of when I was little, sitting at the table and not finishing my dinner. We had to sit there till we were done. My dad would say "You know there are starving children in the world" ....to which I would say "Can you send it to them because I am full?"....There will probably always be starving kids in the world and that is a shame.... ...regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

Mike- I think there is enough to go around and I don't suggest anyone should feel guilty about buying baseball cards. We can all treat ourselves to whatever we want from the money we earn, but there's always a place for charity. I for one make very few charitable contributions, and feel a bad about it, so I was happy to donate to the board effort. Wish I was able to do more.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Well you know....I for one am not "crazy" about perfectly square corners on little pieces of cardboard.

But, to reply to the more significant question here....one of the great problems in this country is
that there are some parents do not take seriously the responsibility to their children; or, not at all.

And, as to the suffering of people throughout this world.....since the end of WWII, the American
people have been more generous to the rest of World's suffering than any, or all, the other nations.
Not only with our Charitable giving, but also with our personal efforts, that in some times have cost
us our own lives in doing so. And, this isespecially true for our brave military Serviceman.

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes- America does help the rest of the world and that is one of our great virtues. But I don't want this thread to get political and turn into train wreck Monday, especially on President's Day.

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Posted By: Mike

No problem Barry. One of the things an attorney told me 15 years ago, or so, was that after he retired, he wanted to spend his time doing charitable work. I always remembered that. I thought what a neat thing that would be. And I guess it gives one, a goal to shoot for, besides all the other things we shoot for in our country. For whatever reason, things have worked out for my family. I retired from commercial banking at 50 years old, and now do my own thing. I have spent the last three years or so, doing a lot of charitable work, and giving more time to my church, which I dearly love. Also I told my wife many years ago, that if and when, we were able to give sizable sums of money, to charity, that we would, And we have. But to get back on track, I absolutely love baseball, it's history, it's strategy. etc. etc. i love history as well. My thousands of baseball items, have been willed to my son. Who also loves baseball. Out of the thousands of cards, photos and ephemera, I think I sold maybe 6 things. You know how sometimes we get emotional, and buy things that really don't fit our long term strategies? Well, I do that some time also. But...people in here shouldn't take pot shots, and generalize about people that they don't know, and will never meet. Lets talk about "Old cardBoard".

Edited to add: God bless our troops, and may God help our leaders make the correct decisions. I didn't mean to get so heavy this morning. If there are any shrinks in here, just send me the bill.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hey Mike- it's President's Day- if you want to feel a little patriotic, go for it! There's room for charity, for family, and for possessions in everyone's life. I say find the right balance, and the rest will take care of itself.

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Posted By: Mike

Thanks Barry....I've tried to get to the last few nationals...this Fall my daughter is getting married, so i don't know if I will make it this year either. but if I do, beers are on me....Have a wonderful Presidents day !!!

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Posted By: cmoking

Ted, when did I say you or I were responsible for that kid? It's all about perspective. That kid thinks you are nuts for spending the kind of money you do. You think the guy buying a $20K PSA 9 T206 card is nuts. What makes you or that kid correct? I am saying NEITHER of you are right. It's all about a matter of perspective.

Actually, I'm an idiot for even posting and bringing it up. I'm sure you and I can agree on that last sentence! I've brought up issues like this previously with you on this forum, and it's abundantly clear you just don't get it. So I will leave that alone for now. Adios amigo.

P.S. Good for you to help out your family. Where I come from, that's not even a question...it's completely expected. That's my perspective, but I'm not going to denounce you for thinking you are doing something good when all you are doing is something expected (again, my perspective, which is different from yours)

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I understood the analogy King made perfectly well in his first post, and am surprised anyone else struggled to.....it is of course one every member of the board keeps in mind as they post. Be proud of what you know and are able to share or display, and remember always that another collector looking on is probably not in the same position to purchase such wonderful cards. For a person to be 'stunned' by large money being thrown at a single card, only to establish they throw large money at many cards, is less than sensitive to the concept. The idea of a third person looking on with almost nothing to their name and being slightly sickened by either practice is completely logical, whether living here in the States or in some other country.


With regards to this Lajoie, I've said before - and I'll note again, why is a card with ostensibly near-mint corners and crease/surface-damage free image any less amazing than one esteemed to be 'mint'? For a card to survive in ANYTHING more than ex-mint condition is astounding, but from that point on there will by law of numbers be some in better/best/bestest shape.
Thus, one or two or ten or one hundred out of the millions of t206's extant will be in this kind of preservation.

It's hardly rocket science. But of course, makes for great conspiratorial posts



Daniel

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Posted By: Joann

Wow - Leon put it just perfectly when describing the investor/collector balance that exists within many of us. To paraphrase - if my cards all went back down to what I paid for them I'd be happy, but if they went to zero I'd be unhappy.

Yep. Perfect. I don't care if they make me tons of money or any at all. I'd even be okay if they were somewhat lesser in value. But I do have to admit that if my card collection became worthless tomorrow I'd be pretty unhappy about that. I'd still be glad I had them and still enjoy them, but face it - I'd be fairly upset at least for awhile.

Joann