A Cautionary Tale - Water and removing gunk.

[bobbyw8469]

I have read with great interest the various threads of people removing "gunk" on their cards with distilled water. I don't have many cards with "gunk" on them, but let me say my horror stories with them. I have tried to remove gunk on cards with simple water and nylon rubbing with disastrous results. Ironically, both are these cards are from 1933. Maybe I should have left well enough alone. If I had allowed the gunk to stay, would these cards have been no better than 1's??

[conor912]

Yes, its noticeable, but i wouldn’t say they’re ruined. I have only ever heard of the nylon trick solely for dry removal of wax buildup. I would Personally never ever rub the surface of a card with anything with water introduced.

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

I think maybe it’s a skill you have to practice with. I tried soaking a couple of commons (a 1933 Goudey and a 1952 Bowman) to try and remove some gunk and brighten their appearance. They both definitely looked worse after I soaked them (I think I was too aggressive on the gunk removal process).

I know there are people on here that swear by that process, but I think I’ll just leave it to the experts

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by conor912

Yes, its noticeable, but i wouldn’t say they’re ruined. I have only ever heard of the nylon trick solely for dry removal of wax buildup. I would Personally never ever rub the surface of a card with anything with water introduced.

Ditto, I would think water would raise the paper fibers and the nylon would then act like sand paper removing those fibers (along with the ink). Water can be good if you just need to get something loose like paper that is glued on.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by thatkidfromjerrymaguire

I think maybe it’s a skill you have to practice with. I tried soaking a couple of commons (a 1933 Goudey and a 1952 Bowman) to try and remove some gunk and brighten their appearance. They both definitely looked worse after I soaked them (I think I was too aggressive on the gunk removal process).

I know there are people on here that swear by that process, but I think I’ll just leave it to the experts

I'm with you John. I guess I still have a lot to learn about the hobby.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by conor912

Yes, its noticeable, but i wouldn’t say they’re ruined. I have only ever heard of the nylon trick solely for dry removal of wax buildup. I would Personally never ever rub the surface of a card with anything with water introduced.

I find plain white paper towels will remove wax from a card front with ease.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I find plain white paper towels will remove wax from a card front with ease.

That's not really wax. That's gunk. An unknown substance.

[Shoeless Moe]

Tony Gunk?

[brob28]

I have found that Goudey's don't soak as well as other cards such as T-206's. I've had good results removing paper and glue from past scrapbook adhesion, but not much else.

[rhettyeakley]

Goudey's (along with modern Topps/Bowman) do not soak well at all. They are not constructed the same way as cards like T206.

T206 cards & many other early sets had the ink directly applied to the paper board itself, which was a single piece of board stock. If you notice Goudey's, Topps, Bowman's are actually very thin layers of paper attached to the front (and in the case of Goudey's-back) and that thin layer is easily damaged as in this case.

You got 2 different tips mixed up in your head. You NEVER apply any pressure when soaking to the surface itself, at most you simply take the pad of your thumb and in a circular motion apply just the slightest amount of pressure or with the tip of a fluffed/teased Q-tip... never use a nylon or anything abrasive.

NYLONS--use only on dry (not soaked) cards for the removal of wax stains, this works on fronts of cards as the wax is on top of the thin layer of paper that has the image (not part of the actual stock but glued to it, conversely this doesn't really work on the back of most Topps cards at that surface is the board stock itself and the wax will actually soak slightly into the stock itself.

Also, take note for soaking that things start getting really murky in the mid-to-late 1920's (but mostly early 1930's). Up to that point most glue used by old-time collectors was paste, either store bought or home-made flour/water mixture. While paste can stain it is also VERY water soluble and can be removed if you know what to do. By the late 1920's/early 1930's people started using more industrial type "glue" to adhere things and often this glue is almost impossible to remove using simple water, normally some other type of solvent is necessary (if at all possible). Elmer's Glue for example is NOT water soluble in any way.

[todeen]

I have read in another thread some people use mineral spirits. What is that used for?

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[todeen]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Also, take note for soaking that things start getting really murky in the mid-to-late 1920's (but mostly early 1930's). Up to that point most glue used by old-time collectors was paste, either store bought or home-made flour/water mixture. While paste can stain it is also VERY water soluble and can be removed if you know what to do. By the late 1920's/early 1930's people started using more industrial type "glue" to adhere things and often this glue is almost impossible to remove using simple water, normally some other type of solvent is necessary (if at all possible). Elmer's Glue for example is NOT water soluble in any way.

OT: same goes for wood working. At some point people stopped using HYDE GLUE, which is water soluble. If you are trying to repair an antique, don't use modern wood glue. Use hyde glue. Then you can fix your mistake if you screw up.

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[conor912]

Originally Posted by todeen

I have read in another thread some people use mineral spirits. What is that used for?

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Mineral spirits, as well as acetone, paint thinner, gasoline, etc, will all break down adhesives that aren’t water soluble. They’re used for cleaning oil based paints, glues, etc.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Also, take note for soaking that things start getting really murky in the mid-to-late 1920's (but mostly early 1930's). Up to that point most glue used by old-time collectors was paste, either store bought or home-made flour/water mixture. While paste can stain it is also VERY water soluble and can be removed if you know what to do. By the late 1920's/early 1930's people started using more industrial type "glue" to adhere things and often this glue is almost impossible to remove using simple water, normally some other type of solvent is necessary (if at all possible). Elmer's Glue for example is NOT water soluble in any way.

Rhett,

I might be misreading the above, but I know up to the early 1950's you can soak cards to remove paste/glue stuck to the backs of cards and I have done so successfully (recently with some 1939 Playballs). After the early 1950's, it almost assuredly will not work.

If you meant that up to the 1930's, you could remove the items without leaving a stain/mark from the paste, that might be true and I apologize if I misunderstood.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by tschock

Rhett,

I might be misreading the above, but I know up to the early 1950's you can soak cards to remove paste/glue stuck to the backs of cards and I have done so successfully (recently with some 1939 Playballs). After the early 1950's, it almost assuredly will not work.

If you meant that up to the 1930's, you could remove the items without leaving a stain/mark from the paste, that might be true and I apologize if I misunderstood.

It just 100% depends on the type of glue/paste used. If they used water soluble glue/paste to adhere the cards they should be removable BUT by the 1930's the non-water soluble glue was more widely available and that becomes the norm vs the exception.

[BabyRuth]

This thread could have also been titled:
"How to turn your VG cards into Authentic Altered in 1 easy step"

[ejharrington]

Water and cardboard baseball cards should never be mixed.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by BabyRuth

This thread could have also been titled:
"How to turn your VG cards into Authentic Altered in 1 easy step"

Do you think cards with gunk on them would be graded PSA 3???? That is technically very good. I thought gunk can be no higher than PSA 1?

[BabyRuth]

Here's a few cards with gunk that graded higher than 1

[Tyruscobb]

I’ve successfully soaked T-206 and Crackerjack cards. I recently attempted a 1933 Goudey. Unfortunately, it did not work. The kid apparently did not use a water-based glue (thanks kid from 1933). Moreover, the card began separating near the edge. I quickly pulled it out, and will accept my A or 1.

[FrankWakefield]

Nylons... what Rhett said. DRY cards only, gentle and patient.

Buy a T58 fish card and soak it. I'm talking immersed in water for a day or two. You'll see dirt accumulate in the bottom of the glass or cup. The card stock in a T58 is the same as a T206. Some gunk can be gently nudged loose from the surface. Don't get aggressive and dig craters in the card. Buy a few dirty, gritty, worn, gunky T58's on eBay. search 'tobacco fish card', maybe add Sweet Caporal to the search. I think most folks who are selling T58's are unaware of the Burdick designation. T=twentieth century, 58=58th series of tobacco card cataloged. (N was for nineteenth century) Practice soaking...

Goudey cards and other 30's cards (eg; National Chicle Sky Birds) area a sandwich of different papers. There's a nice piece of paper atop the front, inside is paper with a thicker coarser pulp. You can soak them, but not for a long time at all. Practice on a beater card or two.

Blot those cards. If you soak it you gotta get the water back out. Blot and press them. A few paper towels, nice white typing paper, then stack some books on top. Blot for half an hour or so then change blotting paper.

Someone on this board knows or remembers more chemistry than I do... water is a universal polar solvent. the outer hydrogen atoms line up oddly, they are polarized to 107 degrees I think. Not 180 degrees... Alcohol oil mineral spirits, that stuff is non polar, the outer at0ms space out symmetrically. Simply put, oil and water don't mix well... If tempera paint is on a window, wash that off with water, not paint thinner. If oil paint spills on the floor, don't get some paper towels doused with water, you need mineral spirits.

If there's a water based ink on a card, then soaking it is gonna weaken the ink and it'll bleed across the card. If it's a permanent or oil based ink, a LITTLE soaking shouldn't make the ink spread.

Consider adhesive tape on the back of a card.... water soaking may ease that tape off, but you're fooling yourself because what really may have happened is the paper loosened and separated, and your now freed piece of tape will have tiny bits of card surface still attached. So what to do... get out 91% isopropyl alcohol. Try that on a bit of gunk.

NOTE WELL: the printing ink when the card was made was almost certainly a non polar ink. That means that your non polar solvent will dissolve it, remove it, discolor it. A Qtip is a useful tool...

I've used lighter fluid to return dried cellophane tape gum to a softer more pliable state when removing it from the back of Goudy cards. Again, slow and gentle. Then, after doing that, I washed it up a bit with rubbing alcohol (think several hours and time passing on this, it isn't a two minute process) on Qtips. I mainly did this to work on the adhesive color left on the card back, but also to help dissipate and diminish the long lasting scent of the lighter fluid.

I don't mind a bunch of haters blasting soaking... consider that I don't send cards off to get graded. But I have broken out several dozen cards outa plastic slabs. I've saved a bunch of slips. It's my card. If I gently erase a pencil mark that wasn't on the card originally, then my card looks better and more like it did when first released to the public. I'm not grading and scamming anyone, I'm not painting or adding color or trimming... Realistically, most of the nice T206s that are in slabs were flour pasted into scrapbooks 100+ years ago and were soaked off in the 50s and 60s. Yes, soaked in bunches. The scrapbook pages would go in a tub, add water. Let soak overnight. Next morning the cards have floated to the top. Rinse them a time or two with clean water, blot and press... Golly, the great corners on most of today's cards survived because of the protection the scrapbook afforded. Cards left in the hands of grubby snot nosed kids (like I was at 8, 9, 10...) those cards look like most of the candy cards, with round corners, think E90-1s and ZeeNuts).

Taking nylons to a wet Goudy card gives me a mental image of me working on a scratch on my car with steel wool and a can of spray paint.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by todeen

I have read in another thread some people use mineral spirits. What is that used for?

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I wouldn't use mineral spirits. The inks used in lithography are oil based, and mineral spirits (Or any other oil based solvent) may dissolve them.
There will always be exceptions, some inks may have a hardening oil as the base, but unless you know for sure it's a coin toss on losing some of the ink.

To me that also crosses the line into altering.

[steve B]

The cards that soak well, like T206s are almost always on coated stock.
The paper is a group of assorted fibers, with some sizing, which could be as simple as starch, or could be some other more adhesive like substance.

If having the colors come out brighter an a bit shiny is desirable, the paper is coated with a claylike substance on one or both sides.

If you've got water soluble stuff on the coated side, it will generally come off easily with water, as the hardened surface is sort of like pottery but thin enough to be flexible. If like many have it's developed microscopic cracks, fine gunk will soak into the fibers in the cracks and probably won't come out. (And to me it's both questionable AND way too much work to try.)

T206 backs are not coated, and it's much harder to remove gunk from the backs. *

As others have said, Goudeys are a sandwich of some pretty rough cardstock for the back and most of the card, with a layer of regular uncoated paper on the front. Gunk will be difficult to get off, and damage is almost guaranteed.

*The even better news is that I believe T206s are on a high rag content stock that's nearly acid free. Unlike many strip cards they'll probably be with us for a very long time.

[Leon]

Good info in this thread. I have soaked a few cards with good results. Patting them with wet paper tissue can get some scrapbook crud off. I still think that soaking discolors white areas a tiny bit on most cards. Makes them a shade darker...not a lot but a little. That's my experience anyway and most times it still beats the alternative.

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