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#1
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: David
I haven't combed through the posts, as my consitution is weak. From what I understand, this PRO Graded 9 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is being offered on eBay not to sell but to try and gather an accurate market price. Whether or not this card is altered, I have no idea as I've never seen it in person-- but it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that a PRO9 52 Topps Mickey Mantle 'has issues.' .... I would guess that the motives for doing this is either because the seller is doing research for an expose or someone is in or soon will be in big legal trouble. Perhaps Dr. Koos is being sued or plans of suing another seller or PRO, and the offering of this card on eBay is to gather factual information. |
#2
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: jay behrens
As stated in another thread, more than likely, the dear Doktor is is running this auction with an insane reserve. He will then contact the high bidder offering him the card at the price saying it was close enough to his reserve. The sale will then not be covered by eBay and he screw the bidder with no repercussions. |
#3
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: David
If that is the case (which I'm not saying it is), then the seller may belong in jail |
#4
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: jay berhens
sadly, I don't think that there are any legal repercussions, which is why somemany scumbags work eBay. |
#5
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: runscott
Assuming that Koos still believes that the card is worthless, he might simply be trying to get a fat number to give the insurance company so that Mantle can meet with an untimely demise and Koos can then re-coop his ill-advised investment. Koos is creative, so I would expect the card to be accidentally dropped in a vat of beer, although we know from his previous posts that he has a different fluid of choice. |
#6
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: Marc S.
The card is seriously altered and restored -- however, it is a beautiful example of what a restored card can look like, and it probably has a true value of $3,000 - $5,000. For the collector who wants a really nice-looking card, but can't afford anything over a Good example of this card, this version will display much more nicely. |
#7
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: David
I remember in one of his old vintage card auctions, Solomon Cramer had a 52 Topps Mantle that was permanently affixed to the bottom of an ashtray. To look at Mickey's face you had to look through the ashtray. As I recall, it fetched an okay price too. |
#8
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: runscott
which sold last night and had been found nailed to a deer hide on someone's wall - PSA even encapsulated it with deer hide still attached. |
#9
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: David
I might of bid, but I'm a vegitarian. Perhaps if it had been found nailed to a turnip or eggplant. |
#10
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: runscott
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#11
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: David
You've obviously never seen my turnip pants. Warm and stylish. |
#12
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: Bruce Moreland
I don't know what is going on. I think it could be a test auction. Maybe he is trying to rip people off. |
#13
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Posted By: David
Bruce, with due respect, I don't understand your reasoning. Do you give similar allowances to Libertyforall and those people selling fake T206 Honus Wagners or someone selling an obviously fored Babe Ruth baseball? If someone offers a fake for auction, the onus is on the seller to either eplain what's going on or remove it. |
#14
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: MW
edited |
#15
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: David
If an item is altered in a significant way (such as, for example,to signifiantly effect the value) and the alteration is not clearly expressed in description, the item is a fake. |
#16
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: MW
<< However, if it has been altered, it is most definately a fake. >> |
#17
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: MW
David -- |
#18
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: David
What I said is correct. Authenticity and fakery is a matter of representation. If an item is significantly misrepresented, the representation and the item itself is not authentic. If an item is not what it is represented to be, it is a fake. You and I may agree or disagree on what constitutes significant misrepresentation, but my description is accurate. |
#19
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: MW
<edited |
#20
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: David
Michael, I understand that you are differentiating between condition and non-forgery alteration and the item's 'core' identity. However, my description of fakery and authenticity is accurate. Authenticity, and fakery is judged by comparing the description or label with the actual item. If there is a significant discrepency (again, 'significant' is subjective as long as it conforms with with widely held standards within the hobby) between the label and the item, then the item is not authentic and it is a fake. |
#21
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Posted By: Bruce Moreland
This all boils down to whether or not you think that he's doing a test auction, or whether you think that there is either a sane reserve on the card or he's going to try to sell it to the high bidder(s) if the reserve isn't met. |
#22
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: MW
David -- |
#23
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: Bruce Moreland
The question is whether you can call this a '52 Topps #311 Mantle, and whether you are legally obliged to disclose alterations you know about. |
#24
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Posted By: David
With due respect, Bruce, Michael and I were discussing the definition of the word 'fake', and it was essentially idependant to the Koos issue. I thought the discussion was legitimate and sincere. You may think my every thought is about Koos, but I promose that it isn't. |
#25
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: MW
edited |
#26
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Posted By: David
Specious? If I knew what that meant I might be mad. |
#27
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Posted By: z28jd
i have nothing to add but i figure since im up at 430 in the morning id let everyone know,continue on gentlemen |
#28
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: MW
edited |
#29
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Posted By: leon
Your last post made me laugh so I thought I would join in. I actually agree with MW on this one. To me, a fake is not a real thing. An altered card is definitely a real thing just changed from it's original state..... But then again what do us Texas Eskimo's know?.....carry on..... |
#30
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: Mike Williams
fake |
#31
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Posted By: runscott
it's actually a BUCK-et of ****, so don't fork over your DOE. |
#32
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: runscott
From all your posts supporting Koos, especially this last one, it sounds like you think it is perfectly acceptable not to disclose card problems that you know about, simply because you can legally get away with it. |
#33
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: vorthian
<< PSA even encapsulated it with deer hide still attached. >> |
#34
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: runscott
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#35
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: David Vargha
(Venison Stain) |
#36
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Posted By: leonl
it's a "deeriation"......I couldn't resist..... |
#37
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Posted By: Bruce Moreland
If you are going to make such implications about me, you should have enough respect for me to do the research first. I am surprised and disappointed to see this kind of thing from a regular poster. |
#38
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: Dr.Koos
...Deer!!!!! |
#39
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Posted By: Dr.Koos
and to THIS DAY, there is NOBODY that I or anyone else know, or had come forward and stated, "_______ was done to that card, here's why". TRIMMING can DEFINITELY be ruled out as one of the possible procedures. The card is a LARGE example of a 52T high number. It measures, with a 1/64th inch ruler, EXACTLY to catalog specs, top to bottom, and side to side is 1/64th of an inch BIGGER than catalog specs (and this is if the measurement INCLUDES the width of the ruler's measuring lines themselves, NOT to just the inside). And it doesn't matter at which point you measure it, because the card is perfectly vertical and horizontal with no tilt to any edge (LOOK at the way it FILLS the holder, especially side to side). It could NOT have been stretched first, then cut, because the portraiture, the area of the photo framing's black lines are IDENTICAL when measured against a "control" G/VG Mantle (the one I auctioned over 1 year ago on Ebay with the broken corner due to a stuck scrapbook photo-corner mount). We can definitely rule out the card being trimmed in any way, shape or form. |
#40
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Posted By: Dr.Koos
...means (with hand waving in the hair gesticulating wildly, hoping I'll be picked to explain)!!!!! It means, living in a place SO small, that you have to step outside to change your mind!!!! |
#41
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Posted By: David
Then obvious question would then be: if it's a completely legitimate card (highest grade, unaltered, etc), why is it is a PRO Holder? |
#42
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: David
No one on the face of this earth, since time = 0, can tell me with sincerity and knowledge that he/she had a legitmate Near Mint-Mint 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle graded by PRO. |
#43
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Posted By: runscott
defending Koos' selling of a trimmed card not described as such, that you had to expect someone to eventually call you on it. |
#44
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Posted By: Bruce Moreland
I received many emails about this, including emails from people who are very strange. |
#45
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Posted By: runscott
...and there is nothing that needs to be un-done. You are going into hysterics over nothing other than a heated chat board discussion. Everyone on this board knows you, and knows that you are honest. |
#46
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: Bruce Moreland
I assumed that this card was a known restored example. If this is some other card then I don't know what is going on, but I still wouldn't touch that card for anything over $20, no offense. |
#47
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: Bruce Moreland
Close enough for modern reality. |
#48
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Posted By: David
I have to agree with Scott on this one. Your argument has been that if someone puts up on eBay an item that substantially misrepresented, everyone should automatically give the seller the benefit of the doubt until the auction is over. If this is your philosophy, what is your approach for the man who was selling the fake T206 Wagner with a BIN of $1,700,000? Do you suggest we keep quiet about Libertyforall, as he hasn't yet disclosed his motivation? |
#49
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Okay, help me understand this
Posted By: Bruce Moreland
This is the reason I asked if it is legal to sell a bad card. |
#50
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Posted By: David
Firstly, Bruce, I have no reason to suspect your auctions or auction practices. I understand that you are asking non-rhetorical and sincere questions. |
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