Jeter SP Foil auction

[AGuinness]

Didn't see another thread on this auction (or the story about it), so I thought I'd get one started.

Pretty crazy money for that card, especially comparing the PSA population of grade 10 (22) with those of the Ryan and Jackson in same grade (1 each).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidse.../#1d23cc5e4519

[Peter_Spaeth]

The flip is all.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Didn't see another thread on this auction (or the story about it), so I thought I'd get one started.

Pretty crazy money for that card, especially comparing the PSA population of grade 10 (22) with those of the Ryan and Jackson in same grade (1 each).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidse.../#1d23cc5e4519

No comparison between the three cards.

Jeter is undoubtedly the most popular Yankee player since Mantle.

He's up there in the Yankee Pantheon with Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle.

He played his entire career with the Yankees.

He performed both regular-, and post-season heroics.

He's the Yankees' all-time leader in hits, plus probably a few other categories.

He's pictured on his RC as a Yankee, and it is his alone; he doesn't share it with anyone else.

Steve

[Peter_Spaeth]

The Jeter is the most important card issued in the past 50 years, according to Brent Huigens, PWCC’s CEO.

Hmmmm... Jordan rookie?

[Hxcmilkshake]

Maybe its the modern day Mantle? Maybe thats blasphemy. Not hard to find but for a modern card its condition sensitive....def can see the premium for a 10.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-SP-Foi...YAAOSw9V5a7la8

Sorry to me this is stupid as hell. Flip buying at its absolute finest.

[steve B]

If he hadn't played in NY, that would maybe be a couple hundred.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Jeter is the most important card issued in the past 50 years, according to Brent Huigens, PWCC’s CEO.

Hmmmm... Jordan rookie?

That line stood out to me as well. Even though Brent didn't not state this in his reply, I guess maybe he was just talking about baseball. Otherwise, the comment is just silly. The '86 Fleer Jordan card is iconic.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by steve B

If he hadn't played in NY, that would maybe be a couple hundred.

Wow, 874 watchers. LOL.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

That line stood out to me as well. Even though Brent didn't not state this in his reply, I guess maybe he was just talking about baseball. Otherwise, the comment is just silly. The '86 Fleer Jordan card is iconic.

Obviously it's cheap but I would argue the 89 Griffey is more important than the SP Jeter.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Obviously it's cheap but I would argue the 89 Griffey is more important than the SP Jeter.

I would agree with that. i had not thought of that card at the time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

If he hadn't played in NY, that would maybe be a couple hundred.

PWCC also has an SP Johnny Damon PSA 10. Damon's numbers of course were inferior to Jeters, but not by as much as you might think. HIS card is currently $70 or so.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-SP-Foi...IAAOSwcmZa7lZx

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-SP-Foi...YAAOSw9V5a7la8

Sorry to me this is stupid as hell. Flip buying at its absolute finest.

That set was extremely condition sensitive. The total population for 10s at only 22, assuming that's the correct number, is very low by modern standards. It's not hard to see a difference between most 9s and 10s in hand. You will usually see chipping on the boarder and/or corners.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

That set was extremely condition sensitive. The total population for 10s at only 22, assuming that's the correct number, is very low by modern standards. It's not hard to see a difference between most 9s and 10s in hand. You will usually see chipping on the boarder and/or corners.

OK. And?

We are talking $66K (so far). For a Derek Jeter?

[Peter_Spaeth]

For $300 or whatever I paid, I am content with this one. Feel free to point out the terrible flaws.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

OK. And?

We are talking $66K (so far). For a Derek Jeter?

I'm confused, too. Especially since there are (currently) 22 PSA 10s out there. My best guess is that after this, one or two more hit the market, but won't do nearly as well as this one. My other guess is that some PSA 9s (currently 567 of those) will be resubmitted to see if they can get a bump, while ungraded copies and graded ones from other TPGs will also be submitted. That 22 could grow significantly for such a card that supposedly is "rare" due to being condition sensitive. Not sure the $60k+ will look that great in a few months.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

That set was extremely condition sensitive. The total population for 10s at only 22, assuming that's the correct number, is very low by modern standards. It's not hard to see a difference between most 9s and 10s in hand. You will usually see chipping on the boarder and/or corners.

When you talk about "most" 9s, how many of the 500+ have you personally examined? And how many 10s?

[Rookiemonster]

You can’t judge this card online in a scan, a pic, or any other way. The only way you can truly see the flaws on this card is in hand. Scratches on the surface and pitting is very hard to see because it’s shiny. Evan the corners on this card a difficult to dectect. The back can be very off center. I MEAN IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A PURPLE STICKER SOOOO...... PWCC and the Greg ( purple label) commented In this article. So I guess they know that purple label and PWCC both have EYE APPEAL stickers.

[Dpeck100]

Peter you seem to be the constant naysayer on the graded card market.

I first joined online forums in 2010 and became aware of what highly sought after graded cards were selling for at the time and the Jeter was going for just over 6k and there were at least half as many.

I would be willing to bet money you would have written at the time that someone paying that amount was just a flip buyer and that 6k is insane money for a modern day card.

Here we stand with the card north of ten times higher, the pop more than double and nothing has changed.

I can't say with any certainly what the future holds for this card but the odds of it going back to 6k are none.

The flaws on your card are obviously the upper two corners and while that is a nice copy it is clear that the card being auctioned off is nicer. I think what is tough for all collectors to wrap their head around at times is these small differences transcend into huge price gaps. It isn't going to change. The collapse of the PSA 10 isn't going to happen. Will cards come down in price in some cases? Yes but the spread between the 9's and 10's isn't going to narrow.

If anything on cards like this it is expanding.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David I perfectly understand the realities of the flip market, I just think it's madness. Take the 10 out of its holder, what do you think it would sell for? Put it in a Gem Mint Beckett holder, same question. A microtouch to a corner (and that's all mine is in hand, and the surface is perfect, best I have ever seen by the way) makes a difference between X and 200X? Is the opinion of some card grader who is probably no more qualified than you or I that it's Gem Mint not Mint really worth that in any meaningful way? It's all very artificial to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Also -- I would be willing to bet if you cracked out all the 9s and 10s, and resubmitted, and somehow could trace each card, you would get a very different group of 10s, and probably some 8.5s or even 8s. At the 9/10 level there is a lot of arbitrariness which is what makes it so artificial in my opinion.
I have seen this first hand, a guy I knew who was a huge volume submitter used to regularly resubmit stacks of 9s of major cards and always would be rewarded with some 10s.

[Dpeck100]

It doesn't matter what it would sell for raw. It doesn't matter what it would sell for in a BGS slab. It comfortably sits in a PSA 10 holder and has been awarded the grade of Gem Mint.

I will never dispute that there are cards that you look at in a holder and think boy I don't see how that was given the grade it got. Some are damaged in the holder while others are simply poorly graded. The most glaring example I have ever seen was a 1974 Topps Dave Winfield rookie that looked like a solid 7 but had a 10 on the holder and it still at the time went for $7,400. Whether you or I or anyone else for that matter agrees is irrelevant. What matters is that card still will change hands for more than a card with a 9 up top.

When I got back into cards in 2009 and switched from baseball to wrestling I saw the writing on the wall. It was clear the only way to radically change the value of a card relative to another example was to get it graded. If anything during this time frame the spread has widened even further and that isn't going to change. Someone can either fight the trend or get on it and enjoy the ride.

There is no doubt that much of the value is in the bragging rights and all one has to do is understand this and the rest makes sense. My card is better than your card and only a small number of people can say they have one that is a 10. Throw in rising prices and you have a perfect storm.


No kicking, fighting or screaming is going to change any of this and as the number of participants expands so do the discrepancies. All one must do is look to the gaming category and the explosion there and see how quickly they have adopted getting cards graded. Simple stuff dude.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David, I get it, there is a flip market. I take that as a given. I am not disagreeing with you. I am just opining that its underpinnings are artificial and arbitrary.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Also -- I would be willing to bet if you cracked out all the 9s and 10s, and resubmitted, and somehow could trace each card, you would get a very different group of 10s, and probably some 8.5s or even 8s. At the 9/10 level there is a lot of arbitrariness which is what makes it so artificial in my opinion.
I have seen this first hand, a guy I knew who was a huge volume submitter used to regularly resubmit stacks of 9s of major cards and always would be rewarded with some 10s.

I couldn’t have said it better. ( especially with the 1993 SP jeter) I be heard some crazy stories on the regrade your card game. Give me a grade 8 and 90% percent of the time you can’t see it’s not a 9. And take a look at a 9 and I’ll make a case for to be a 10 or a 8.(depends if it my card or yours lol.


I don’t even see graded cards as mine is better then yours because the grade of it. Maybe 2 to 10 but the difference between 7 and a 8 come on.

[Peter_Spaeth]

For anyone who believes in the "10" I encourage you -- no I double dog dare you -- to do the following experiment. Take 20 PSA 10s of cards of significant value, crack them out, resubmit them (yourself, not through 4SC), and report back what you get. Go on.

[Dpeck100]

I have loads of self submitted 10's that you could send in time and time again and get a 10.

This is not an exactly tough set but it is pretty obvious this card is a 10.

[Dpeck100]

What gets lost in the shuffle is some collectors like 10's because many are incredibly aesthetically pleasing to the eye with no wear and perfect centering.

I like them for numerous reasons. I love to collect nice looking cards, they are dramatically better than any other grade for investment purposes, I have active registry sets, I like to uncover raw cards that are beautiful, I can say I have the only copy or one of just a few copies to ever grade that high, huge bank for your buck if you submit them yourself, and on and on.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have a number of 9s that look like 10s. And probably some percentage would be on resubmission. And probably some of my 10s would get 9s. The guy I knew made a good part of his living getting 9s bumped to 10s. Jordan rookies and the like. It was essentially a numbers game.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

What gets lost in the shuffle is some collectors like 10's because many are incredibly aesthetically pleasing to the eye with no wear and perfect centering.

I like them for numerous reasons. I love to collect nice looking cards, they are dramatically better than any other grade for investment purposes, I have active registry sets, I like to uncover raw cards that are beautiful, I can say I have the only copy or one of just a few copies to ever grade that high, huge bank for your buck if you submit them yourself, and on and on.

I agree with you on the investment, no question. Where we disagree is whether in terms of the actual card, there is a clear differentiation between a 9 and a 10. From what I have seen in decades of doing this, frequently not. Many many 10s are bumped 9s.

[Dpeck100]

That is where it gets blurry. You are right about that bump game. The most expensive card I have ever purchased was a 9 first.

I think some of that can be chalked up to erring on the side of conservatism and card grading isn’t a perfect science. I was naive to that when I first embraced it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

That is where it gets blurry. You are right about that bump game. The most expensive card I have ever purchased was a 9 first.

I think some of that can be chalked up to erring on the side of conservatism and card grading isn’t a perfect science. I was naive to that when I first embraced it.

So was it that much better a card in a 10 flip? To me that's where it gets absurd. And don't even get me going on the celebrity bump thing.

[Dpeck100]

Most wrestling cards are cheap and there is real risk from a monetary stand point to not grade a 10.

You get very picky on certain cards when this is the case and if it looks closer to a 9 I take it out of the stack.

I obviously don’t have a 1000 percent average but have done quite well at it.

[Dpeck100]

It is better than the two PSA 9’s that exist. I own both.

I saw it raw in a text and thought it was a 10.

[Hxcmilkshake]

You can do that with most cards, especially newer ones, thats the problem with grading.

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I couldn’t have said it better. ( especially with the 1993 SP jeter) I be heard some crazy stories on the regrade your card game. Give me a grade 8 and 90% percent of the time you can’t see it’s not a 9. And take a look at a 9 and I’ll make a case for to be a 10 or a 8.(depends if it my card or yours lol.


I don’t even see graded cards as mine is better then yours because the grade of it. Maybe 2 to 10 but the difference between 7 and a 8 come on.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

[irv]

What I always get a chuckle out of is brand new, pack fresh cards that receive 8's or less. What exactly is wrong with those cards that could warrant such a grade?

If all pre and post war cards were graded like these new(er) ones, most would be lucky to receive 2's or 3's instead of the 8's and 9's some of them receive.
Older graded slab, but you should get the point.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-...vip=true&rt=nc

[Republicaninmass]

Wow, that would have been a 3rd string sub on my account

[Rookiemonster]

Card is up to 82,000

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Card is up to 82,000

David P convinced me.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David P convinced me.

Lol idk if I could be convinced for this price.

[Peter_Spaeth]

96K and rising. Come on. There are 22 10s. The high bidder has bid 55 times on this lot so far.

[Dpeck100]

PSA 10's bring the bucks.

It is so simple. Predicting the marquee cards are tough but predicting the PSA 10 is the best copy to buy isn't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

100K for a 1993 pop 22? Sorry, I hear everything you are saying David but it makes no sense to me at all.

[Dpeck100]

I can't suggest I understand the price either. That said the formula is very simple.

Low supply of cards available creates high prices. This might be an anomaly it might not. The card will never be cheap again. It is a platinum level card and once they become that it is really hard to predict the peak. It can be much higher than you can dream.

Last sale I believe was 54k so quite an increase. That was high from prior sales in the mid to high 30's. Fast market.

[irv]

When this card was at $61 or $62K, I was going to ask if it had the chance to reach a $100K, but thought you would all think I was smoking something.

Like I mentioned, I don't follow this card at all, but when I seen the $61 or $62K, I thought it was most likely already topped out.
$99,100 with 7 minutes remaining. Will it hit a $100 K?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Or a manipulated one, based on lessons of the recent past. Who knows.

[irv]

$99,100.

[Dpeck100]

I think you always have to use caution on outlier sales and especially when only two bidders really drive it north. Time will tell if this sale goes trough and hard to say if someone could put their copy for sale and have it clear the market at this price. Will be interesting that is for sure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I think you always have to use caution on outlier sales and especially when only two bidders really drive it north. Time will tell if this sale goes trough and hard to say if someone could put their copy for sale and have it clear the market at this price. Will be interesting that is for sure.

Yep. After what we saw in 2016 I have some skepticism here, especially with the pop as high as it is and the price rising so quickly and sharply. Time will tell.

[Dpeck100]

The card is going to be expensive permanently and will be very hard to predict in price.

If a few guys with fast money to burn get into the hobby prices go up for a time. There is a fast money type buyer loading up on Mike Trout and I can see someone with a similar attitude moving cards like this up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The card is going to be expensive permanently and will be very hard to predict in price.

If a few guys with fast money to burn get into the hobby prices go up for a time. There is a fast money type buyer loading up on Mike Trout and I can see someone with a similar attitude moving cards like this up.

Which Trout is the equivalent of the SP Jeter, that 2009 minor league one?