1921-30 m.l. die cuts question.

[novakjr]

I picked this up yesterday on the bay. It's one of the 1921-39 m.l. die-cuts, of a Detroit player, and the sticker has never been attached. Where the sticker would be is the number 14. I've done a little research, and I've come across another die cut of Harry Heilmann and it has the number 14 on the sticker, so I would believe that the number on the sticker was intended to be attached to the matching cut-out.

That being said, I'm not saying I'm right here, but I'm thinking that mine is the Heilmann and the other I saw was the Heilmann sticker attached to the wrong cut-out. Does anyone know anything about these? I know they had updated stickers whenever a player changed teams, but did they ever randomly change the corresponding cut-out? Basically was the Detroit 14 cut-out always the same cut-out? Or do I have a cut-out that was intended for a completely different player in 1930, when Heilmann was playing for the Reds?

Also, just for the sake of argument, if the cut-out never changed. Would you consider a cut-out with the wrong sticker to be the player named on the sticker, thus resulting in a larger number of possible cut-outs of that player? And would you consider the appropriate cut-out without the sticker to still be the player it was intended for? And would one with the wrong sticker be considered a card of both the originally intended player and the one who's sticker was attached?

[rhettyeakley]

I don't think anyone has ever studied these nearly enough to answer your question. However, the number on the player piece does correspond with the number at the bottom of the label. My thinking is that the label is the important part--it would be less than ideal if a right fielder piece was attached to a pitcher pose but once the label is on the player piece you can no longer see the number underneath.

Keep in mind these were reissued each year and a particular player could be found in different "poses" (especially the pitchers--as each team had a few. But say for example Heilmann played in 1922 as rght field and switched to center field the next year, they may switch his player pose to correspond to with Heilmann. Each team was styled differently--even though the same generic poses were used--so they aren't totally generic in regards to the team.

I've never looked into the cards that closely but if all "right fielders" were always given the same pose and that is different than the one that the Heilman card w/ label you show has then it was probably a mistake. But also keep in mind that in the 1922 team set Heilmann may have been #14 in that set but in 1924 he may have had a different # on the sheet--so I would use some caution making assumptions until more info is gathered.

-Rhett

[rhettyeakley]

Looking at the ones I have, it appears the labeled Heilmann above is probably a mislabel as that appears to be a pitching pose (but notice the numbers are different)...


Joe Shaute (pitcher)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MESE:IT

Dave Robertson (pitcher)

[novakjr]

Thanks Rhett. This is seemingly one of the oddest issues I've seen. It seems that not many people really know anything about 'em. The only thing I really have to go by for now is a 2005 Beckett Standard Catalog, and they don't even have any reference to Heilmann or the numbers, and only have it listed as 1926. But then again, that's what I get for having a 6 year old book. Does the newer SCD have anything significant in regards to these?

[leftygrove10]

The 2007 and 2011 SCD Standard Catalogs do not list individual players. They only list prices for Cobb, Gehrig, Johnson and Ruth. They mention prices for "Typical Team Sets", "Common Players" and "Typical Hall of Famers". The older SCD's did list the individual players. Unfortunately, they no longer do that.

Maybe someone with an older (2003?) SCD Catalog can help you.

[martyp]

I have a complete game. The game has 16 bags of players and each team has 14 players. So for your #14, it could be one of 16 players from any of several different years. The pieces remained the same and the labels changed.

The 2003 SCD lists players by teams. The problem is that they do not have all teams for each year, so the list is incomplete. It has 1921 Heilmann as #6, 1924 as #7 and 1926 as #5.

My game has Cobb with the A's so it is a 1927 or 28 game. There are no teams listed in 1928 and only the Phillies in 27.

[novakjr]

Thanks Marty. Do you have any photo's? Any chance I could get a list of the numbers with corresponding players in your game? I wouldn't mind putting together some sort of confirmed checklist with the sticker numbers.

Also is there any chance that the 2003 SCD was arbitrarily numbering them alphabetically, rather than the corresponding number on the sticker. I only say this because I've never seen anything other than a pitcher 1-5(keep in mind, this is only from what little I've been able to find).

[Section103]

One other comment I can add since I sold it to David, the Heilmann sticker was affixed to the back. It is a peculiar issue, but I think David made a very nice pick up, especially for the price. Anyway, let me know if you're not happy for any reason. I have the package in my bag ready to be dropped off at the post office.

[novakjr]

Awesome Rich. Thanks, I had no idea that the sticker was on the back. I knew you had Heilmann listed on the auction, so I figured that you probably did the same research I did, and came to that same conclusion.

Anyways, I really would like to put together some sort of checklist for these by team. So if anyone has any scans, or at least can confirm a name/team/position/corresponding number for any ones that they have had, or seen, it would be greatly appreciated.

[FirstYearCards]

Just checking to see if anyone could provide any more info on this subject. Thanks, Bill.

[nolemmings]

Alot remains to be learned about these. I can tell you it appears that in 1921, the first sets of these were issued in sheets--14 players to a sheet in two rows of 7, with pitchers and catchers on top. Each designated position looks the same for each team. Here's a partial White Sox sheet:


As you can see, unlike later years when the player info was typed or printed onto a label, my Chisox sheet has the info printed right on the base--note how the shoes on some players run onto the base. Also note how the '21s do not tell you which way the player batted, and thus there is a gap and one less line of text. Finally, unlike subsequent years, the '21s do not have the bottom number corresponding to a pre-printed base. Compare to this White Sox catcher, probably from 1923:


I believe that sometime after 1921 the company provided the sheets with numbered-only bases and then stickers/labels for each team. I don't know if they switched to this format right away in 1922 or some time later-- if later there should be sheets with the "info base" reflecting subsequent rosters. I assume if you already had a board and the die cuts you could simply order the labels for subsequent seasons, but wondered if a consumer had the option of buying the sheets with pre-printed info on it after 1922 or instead was simply stuck with the numbered bases and a bunch of labels.

The post-1921 players are found with different fonts on the labels, and some look to have been generated by a typewriter. Some of the labels appear to show a more perforated edge than others also, as maybe this aspect changed over the years as well. Later years also abbreviated the two league designations.

In watching these from time to time on ebay, I do not see that the team uniforms changed at all over the years-- a 1921 Browns player will look like a 1930 Browns player. Finally, I note that my die-cut players are cut real close--the image actually goes outside the jigsaw line on occasion, whereas the players from later seasons seem to have a little more white background surrounding the player's body. Could just be my sheet, as there is such a small sample size that I can't make assumptions, but it's something to think about--i.e. that they re-cut the players (or reduced the size of the images slightly) later in production.

[kdixon]

I dont know much about these but I have been collecting Wheat for about 30 years and never had a chance to buy one till earlier this year. They are very hard to come by.

[novakjr]

Todd, that sheet is awesome....

So far the ONLY 2 of these I've added to my collection, are the Helimann(that started this thread), and a Bill Dickey. Dickey is the 2nd sticker that was affixed to this piece. I have no clue who's under it, and don't plan on finding out..

As a Rookie collector, there's probably a handful of these that I really wouldn't mind finding..

[ValKehl]

I have this full sheet of the Washington Senators, which appears to me to be identical to Todd's sheet of White Sox players, except, of course, for the names. I assume this was a 1921 production based on when these players played for the Senators. 1921 is the last year that Acosta and O'Rourke played for the Senators and the first year for Goslin and Mogridge.
Val

[bcbgcbrcb]

Very nice, Val. That would make the Goslin a RC of sorts then as his earliest other cards were all issued in 1922.

[dstudeba]

Thanks for showing those Todd and Val, they are great!

[gracecollector]

A later sheet, after labels were introduced. The directions are a bit different, with instructions for first applying the labels according to number.



Recently acquired a Rabbit for my Maranville collection.