Buyer Beware: CMIZ5290 board member

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

"Authenticity" and "Grade" are two completely different concepts. Authenticity references whether the card is real or not, while grade is an indicator of its relative condition. There can be no such thing as an "authentic grade", even though you do see that phrase used from time to time. The buyer has every expectation of receiving a refund in this situation, in my opinion.

Exactly. To me, a PSA slab that says "Authentic" is not graded, it's just verified as being a real card. To be graded, it's gotta have a number on it.

[Mikehealer]

I don't always adhere to the old adage, "if you can't say something good about someone then say nothing at all", so I'll say this about Kevin

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by ramram

Four and one half years of B/S/T bumps of the Wagner portrait coming to an end.

Rob M

P.S. Nice bst post Paul G. Just under the wire, lol.

Leon just closed the thread - the most viewed BST thread 25,008 Views - that's like Cy Young's win record, I can;t see anyone sniffing it.

The man was ahead of time. No wait.......nevermind......I'm thinking of the fake Rolex he's probably wearing.

[AddieJoss]

5 years ago, I bought a couple cards from Kevin. After that he and I negotiated another deal, he accepted and then backed out of the deal ($200) and didn’t sell the cards. I was Not out any money but it was unprofessional, and never bought anything from him again, and would have if his posts were from a different seller.
Cory Weiser

[todeen]

Here are the shots. Not slabbed. I don't know what I needed to click to get it slabbed. Like I said, this was my first submission.

But my other submissions came back graded. I really like the black background.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by todeen

Here are the shots. Not slabbed. I don't know what I needed to click to get it cleaned. Like I said, this was my first submission.

But my other submissions came back graded. I really like the black background.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

There seemed to be some interest in it. Put it in the BST section at a break even price. Best of luck.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by bnorth

There seemed to be some interest in it. Put it in the BST section at a break even price. Best of luck.

That card carries a premium now, it's famous after the last couple of days...

[Shoeless Moe]

I'm a card idiot mind you, so bare with me.

What about it is altered?

If it's the size, can you lay it over another Goudey you have and take a pix?

I'd like to see the difference.

[uyu906]

Good riddance . . . IMHO

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

I'm a card idiot mind you, so bare with me.

What about it is altered?

If it's the size, can you lay it over another Goudey you have and take a pix?

I'd like to see the difference.

my guess is color added...size looks good.

[perezfan]

I am guessing it's the corners that account for the "grade".

Rather than natural corner wear, it looks like the corners (at one point in time) were artificially rounded by a scissors. Just a guess, without having it in-hand.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I am guessing it's the corners that account for the "grade".

Rather than natural corner wear, it looks like the corners (at one point in time) were artificially rounded by a scissors. Just a guess, without having it in-hand.

Its possible...I'm no grading expert. BUT...It seems they could have been in a stack heavily handled and put in a kids pocket over and over...that would certainly round corners uniformly...all the cards in the stack.

[68Hawk]

Kevin clearly screwed the pooch.

However, as a buyer/seller of graded cards for 20 years, those on here judging an Authentic grade as not a 'grade' are incorrect.

A grade refers to an assessment, not a number.

Many many many many times I've been asked what grade a card received that I put in to a TPG. If the card can be holdered, even with an assessment of only 'authentic', that is the grade it received. There is even a column on all the big three TPGers that is for Auth. It is a grade, and sometimes will be considered superior to a 1 2 or 3 if fantastic eye appeal is of value.
This will happen regularly to cards like Old Judges, strip cards, and famously the 52' Topps Mantle.

Kevin is all kinds of wrong because he's a douche and finds the few extra dollars he can make more important than his hobby cred.
However, if this card WOULD grade Authentic because of an alteration like trimming and not meeting minimum size, and the card had indeed been entombed, he would technically be fine.

The first isn't mine...bummer.
The second I've owned for nearly 15 years.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Kevin clearly screwed the pooch.

However, as a buyer/seller of graded cards for 20 years, those on here judging an Authentic grade as not a 'grade' are incorrect.

A grade refers to an assessment, not a number.

Many many many many times I've been asked what grade a card received that I put in to a TPG. If the card can be holdered, even with an assessment of only 'authentic', that is the grade it received. There is even a column on all the big three TPGers that is for Auth. It is a grade, and sometimes will be considered superior to a 1 2 or 3 if fantastic eye appeal is of value.
This will happen regularly to cards like Old Judges, strip cards, and famously the 52' Topps Mantle.

Kevin is all kinds of wrong because he's a douche and finds the few extra dollars he can make more important than his hobby cred.
However, if this card WOULD grade Authentic because of an alteration like trimming and not meeting minimum size, and the card had indeed been entombed, he would technically be fine.

I tend to agree with this mindset...especially the first sentence in the fifth paragraph.

In this day and age it seems A is a grade?

[Tao_Moko]

Tough crowd. I reflect on the soft, pink, pot-bellied and balding crowds at shows and bet none of those guys are here slinging their daggers at Kevin. None of those briefcase weilding or fanny pack wearing(magnifier loupe at the ready) gentlemen passing their judgement here. If they were then I'm certain they would be equally as willing to throw the dagger in person. It's important for middle to advanced aged men to stand tall against the face of the beater card adversary. Of course you should be able to buy a beater and expect to get more than a beater. Caveat Venditor! Mount up prewar baseball collectors and off to forum war!!!! Grab your loupes and protective sleeves! Someone just bumped a post!!!! There's fantasy sports, golf at stake and latte's with special sprinkles to get to. Let no overpriced or too frequently a bump get in your way!!!! It's "go time" men.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

I'm a card idiot mind you, so bare with me.



What about it is altered?



If it's the size, can you lay it over another Goudey you have and take a pix?



I'd like to see the difference.

Laid over the Tris Speaker and they appeared to be the same size. I did that before I shipped / submitted them and couldn't tell a difference with my fingers running over the edges.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[CobbSpikedMe]

I have to disagree that an "A" or "AUT" is a grade. It is an opinion of authenticity but not a grade. A grade is a numerical assessment of condition. When a number grade is assigned the authenticity is implied. But without a number it's not a grade of the card. Poor is the lowest grade, not Authentic.

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

-Integrity-

The choice between what is convenient and what is right.

+1

[Joe Hunter]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Kevin clearly screwed the pooch.

However, as a buyer/seller of graded cards for 20 years, those on here judging an Authentic grade as not a 'grade' are incorrect.

A grade refers to an assessment, not a number.

Many many many many times I've been asked what grade a card received that I put in to a TPG. If the card can be holdered, even with an assessment of only 'authentic', that is the grade it received. There is even a column on all the big three TPGers that is for Auth. It is a grade, and sometimes will be considered superior to a 1 2 or 3 if fantastic eye appeal is of value.
This will happen regularly to cards like Old Judges, strip cards, and famously the 52' Topps Mantle.

Kevin is all kinds of wrong because he's a douche and finds the few extra dollars he can make more important than his hobby cred.
However, if this card WOULD grade Authentic because of an alteration like trimming and not meeting minimum size, and the card had indeed been entombed, he would technically be fine.

The first isn't mine...bummer.
The second I've owned for nearly 15 years.

Nope. Directly from the PSA Website:
"Authentication is the process of verifying the originality or genuineness of a trading card. Grading is assessing the quality and condition of a trading card using PSA's 10-point grading scale. Grading can only take place AFTER a trading card has been deemed AUTHENTIC."
I believe other grading companies concur this philosophy.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

Nope. Directly from the PSA Website:
"Authentication is the process of verifying the originality or genuineness of a trading card. Grading is assessing the quality and condition of a trading card using PSA's 10-point grading scale. Grading can only take place AFTER a trading card has been deemed AUTHENTIC."
I believe other grading companies concur this philosophy.

I stand corrected...although all this is is PSA's opinion. I likely have more experience than most of their graders...so my opinion is worth more!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO the technical debates about what "grade" means are beside the point. Selling in this community has advantages such as no fees, and if a buyer isn't happy and requests a return within a reasonable time, a seller who wants to sell in this community should just suck it up and take the card back out of good will. All the more so when the buyer has a good faith belief the card was not what he expected.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

my guess is color added...size looks good.

Yeah, that lighter area from right around his elbow going towards the right looks like it's either been treated or painted in.

[bigfanNY]

This card did not come back Authentic it came back Altered. Which is not a grade, it is a qualifier. In this case looks like the dreded Altered Stock. Really harsh term for stored in a screwdown that was too tight. In the OP the buyer stated that he would have been fine if it was in a Authentic holder. But, he was not ok with an Authentic with one or more qualifiers.
I am late here but I see this as the issue. If I buy a card that is Guaranteed to grade. I 100% would not accept a card that came back trimmed, or Altered stock or recolored. And I agree with OP seller should have offered refund.
Jonathan

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

Tough crowd. I reflect on the soft, pink, pot-bellied and balding crowds at shows and bet none of those guys are here slinging their daggers at Kevin. None of those briefcase weilding or fanny pack wearing(magnifier loupe at the ready) gentlemen passing their judgement here. If they were then I'm certain they would be equally as willing to throw the dagger in person. It's important for middle to advanced aged men to stand tall against the face of the beater card adversary. Of course you should be able to buy a beater and expect to get more than a beater. Caveat Venditor! Mount up prewar baseball collectors and off to forum war!!!! Grab your loupes and protective sleeves! Someone just bumped a post!!!! There's fantasy sports, golf at stake and latte's with special sprinkles to get to. Let no overpriced or too frequently a bump get in your way!!!! It's "go time" men.

Hmmm....
soft? - Maybe?
Pink? - I suppose, not all that pale, but not like I've been working outdoors all summer either.
Pot bellied - depends on where you draw that line. Not svelte, but not awful.
Balding - sorta, I am getting a bit old.

Briefcase - Nope
Fanny pack - No, briefcase would be far more likely.

Would I throw down the dagger in person on someone selling something as something it's not?

Yeah, for sure.
Whether It's Kevin, who you seem to imply is some sort of card selling badass*, or some name calling kid.

Just remember, Old people have lost most of their pride (Goes with the balding and fatness you'll understand someday) and are not at all above fighting dirty. Or pissing people off.
---------------------------
* Worked at a dealership and one of the mechanics was a former genuine Hells Angel. Met him again a few years later, at a card show. Where he was dealing.... hockey cards. Nice guy but...

Hey Gary,
yeah?
Can I ask a question you might not want to answer?
Sure, worst I'll do is say get lost
What's the tattoo that says "Hook" mean?
It's a nickname. I took a guys calf off with a meathook once in a brawl. (Yeah, he was also very open about stuff if asked directly)

He was a really nice calm guy pretty much all the time.
Wherever you ended up Gary I hope the card dealing worked out great.

[tjb1952tjb]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

His abrasiveness was never ending. For those who claim to of had a good experience with him there were many more who did not.

Good riddance!

A very BIG +1. Adios!!!

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by steve B

Hmmm....
soft? - Maybe?
Pink? - I suppose, not all that pale, but not like I've been working outdoors all summer either.
Pot bellied - depends on where you draw that line. Not svelte, but not awful.
Balding - sorta, I am getting a bit old.

Briefcase - Nope
Fanny pack - No, briefcase would be far more likely.

Would I throw down the dagger in person on someone selling something as something it's not?

Yeah, for sure.
Whether It's Kevin, who you seem to imply is some sort of card selling badass*, or some name calling kid.

Just remember, Old people have lost most of their pride (Goes with the balding and fatness you'll understand someday) and are not at all above fighting dirty. Or pissing people off.
---------------------------
* Worked at a dealership and one of the mechanics was a former genuine Hells Angel. Met him again a few years later, at a card show. Where he was dealing.... hockey cards. Nice guy but...

Hey Gary,
yeah?
Can I ask a question you might not want to answer?
Sure, worst I'll do is say get lost
What's the tattoo that says "Hook" mean?
It's a nickname. I took a guys calf off with a meathook once in a brawl. (Yeah, he was also very open about stuff if asked directly)

He was a really nice calm guy pretty much all the time.
Wherever you ended up Gary I hope the card dealing worked out great.

I like the cut of your jib Steve.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by ramram

Four and one half years of B/S/T bumps of the Wagner portrait coming to an end.

And not a day too soon. One of the reasons I ignored his bst posts.

[Tabe]

Thought to myself, "what do the grading companies have to say?" So I checked the PSA and SGC sites for their grading scales. Neither company lists "authentic" or anything else non-numeric as a possible grade.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Thought to myself, "what do the grading companies have to say?" So I checked the PSA and SGC sites for their grading scales. Neither company lists "authentic" or anything else non-numeric as a possible grade.

Not sure if this will work, don't know how to do a screen capture and load it...

Here is a link to the PSA pop report for 1952 Topps Cards.
https://www.psacard.com/pop/baseball...52/topps/49722

Reading across the row left to right:

Card no (1) / Name (Andy Pafko) / Grade / pop for column headed Auth / and then the population for each numerical grade column eg 1, 1.5, - 10. / Total

Authentic is clearly listed as a grade in the population for the cards that have been graded of that player, it has it's own column directly adjacent to the numberical ones..
I used a calculator to be sure, and indeed the Authentic pop numbers are included in the total population.

If Authentic is not a grade they are doing a great job of misdirection.

Also, below each Auth/numerical grade option are a row for the cards that have been assigned a + assessment and a further row for those that have been given qualifiers.
Authentic graded cards are not given a separate demarcation or row, they are included and indeed graphed as a graded part of the population.

Interestingly it seems BGS have changed their format for cards (since I last looked) and no longer have the Auth designation listed whatsoever.... I haven't been on SGC's website for yonks since they were 'down' for what seemed an eternity.
Strange for Beckett not to offer any statistics for Authentic cards, regardless how you graph it I would think collectors would find the population number valuable in assessing relative scarcity and price?

[Rich Falvo]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

This card did not come back Authentic it came back Altered.

I think a lot of people are missing this point.

Personally, I’ve often though of Authentic as grade of less than 1. I’ve had cards in such bad shape that they didn’t deserve a 1 grade, so they were just marked Authentic. But, if I was buying a card that I was told would grade, I’d be expecting a number.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by Rich Falvo

I think a lot of people are missing this point.

Personally, I’ve often though of Authentic as grade of less than 1. I’ve had cards in such bad shape that they didn’t deserve a 1 grade, so they were just marked Authentic. But, if I was buying a card that I was told would grade, I’d be expecting a number.

So then it appears there are 2 additional grades - Authentic and Altered

Which is the better "grade" - I would assume Altered or no?

[Seven]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

So then it appears there are 2 additional grades - Authentic and Altered

Which is the better "grade" - I would assume Altered or no?

In my opinion, it's altered. I have a couple of cards that are labeled Altered that were slightly trimmed, The eye appeal on both of them is very strong.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Anyone who says ALTERED is a grade when someone uses the phrase "Guaranteed to grade" please stand up and be counted so I can make sure I never do business with you.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

Tough crowd. I reflect on the soft, pink, pot-bellied and balding crowds at shows and bet none of those guys are here slinging their daggers at Kevin. None of those briefcase weilding or fanny pack wearing(magnifier loupe at the ready) gentlemen passing their judgement here. If they were then I'm certain they would be equally as willing to throw the dagger in person. It's important for middle to advanced aged men to stand tall against the face of the beater card adversary. Of course you should be able to buy a beater and expect to get more than a beater. Caveat Venditor! Mount up prewar baseball collectors and off to forum war!!!! Grab your loupes and protective sleeves! Someone just bumped a post!!!! There's fantasy sports, golf at stake and latte's with special sprinkles to get to. Let no overpriced or too frequently a bump get in your way!!!! It's "go time" men.

Best post I've read in this thread.
But let's not be too harsh... most of the gentleman who pile on in these posts probably don't realize that they're senile old dinosaurs.... or maybe they can't remember??

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

my guess is color added...size looks good.

or removed. On the back there is a light en mark above the "k" in New York

[icurnmedic]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Best post I've read in this thread.
But let's not be too harsh... most of the gentleman who pile on in these posts probably don't realize that they're senile old dinosaurs.... or maybe they can't remember??

Now that is funny!!

[edhans]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

or removed. On the back there is a light en mark above the "k" in New York

+1

That's what I thought when I first saw it.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Anyone who says ALTERED is a grade when someone uses the phrase "Guaranteed to grade" please stand up and be counted so I can make sure I never do business with you.

Amen to that. Since when is "doesn't qualify for a grade because it's been altered" a grade?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[HawkFan70]

I completely agree with Scott. If you guarantee it to grade it means a numeric grade, if not why do you need to use two statements?

"Fair condition....I guarantee the card to be authentic, and will grade,"

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

And not a day too soon. One of the reasons I ignored his bst posts.

Steadily got inquiries on it. . . . better move fast.

Sort of wonder why he never just gave the damm thing to an AH.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Anyone who says ALTERED is a grade when someone uses the phrase "Guaranteed to grade" please stand up and be counted so I can make sure I never do business with you.

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Best post I've read in this thread.
But let's not be too harsh... most of the gentleman who pile on in these posts probably don't realize that they're senile old dinosaurs.... or maybe they can't remember??

+1

[Oscar_Stanage]

"I guarantee the card to be authentic, and will grade"

In our hobby, this unequivocally means the card will receive a number grade. I have little patience for people who twist words, pretend they mean something else and then attempt to make you feel stupid.

There are plenty of sellers who will take cards back no questions asked, where we don't need silly little protections, platitudes, and meaningless guarantees.

And there are buyers who will find those sellers and send them $1000s via PPFF for the cards they want. and not think twice.

[Kevin]

With the amount of bad press this guy is getting, I think I might change my user name...

[cammb]

If the card was slabbed SGC would have given a grade of Authentic. There is no grade of Altered. I dont believe I have ever seen a SGC card labeled as Authentic with altered also mentioned, but I could be wrong. The OP didn't check the box to have it slabbed even it is authentic.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

or removed. On the back there is a light en mark above the "k" in New York

My thoughts exactly. I see no trim, paper alteration by screw down or man on the grassy knoll. If that ink was erased even slightly it’s an alt grade.

As someone who actually prefers an visually pleasing auth, alt or “1” with tiny paper loss but looks great, I like the card. I would always go with presentation over grade. That said the card should have been taken back nicely and I am sure it would have sold quickly even in an alt slab. Totally siding with the OP on this.

That said it will be a bummer to not have someone to completely overreact and start denigrating my entire family if he disagrees with anything...darn. I am sure a newbie will step up to the plate soon.

[BRoberts]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Anyone who says ALTERED is a grade when someone uses the phrase "Guaranteed to grade" please stand up and be counted so I can make sure I never do business with you.

Thank you, Scott, for your continued leadership within the hobby.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Steadily got inquiries on it. . . . better move fast.

Sort of wonder why he never just gave the damm thing to an AH.

Same here...

Dozens of times, I wanted to respond to just one of those endless threads, to say JUST CONSIGN THE DAMNED THING!

But thought it was bad form to hijack someone’s BST post (even for a shady seller and reneger). So just bit my tongue time and again.

If nothing else, this thread provides solid evidence that what goes around comes around.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

I too had a disappointing experience with Mize years ago and vowed never to speak or deal with him again. In fact I refuse to open any of his threads (except this one )

As small as this community and hobby are its amazing that someone would behave this way so blatantly time and time again.

Reputation is everything.

Yes it is and that's why I buzz right by his listings. I have completed probably over 50K worth of deals from forum members and never had a problem. Nothing but quality guys for the most part with a couple of dopey MCdope dopes.... I think he'll do the right thing....eventually. Either just make a simple refund for a guy who's not happy or shove it down his throat and risk his reputation further. Good Luck!

[todeen]

Originally Posted by JustinD

As someone who actually prefers an visually pleasing auth, alt or “1” with tiny paper loss but looks great, I like the card. I would always go with presentation over grade. That said the card should have been taken back nicely and I am sure it would have sold quickly even in an alt slab. Totally siding with the OP on this.

I buy low grade vintage cards as well. That's what's in my budget. I just know from a couple other cards I purchased in the past that didn't turn out as described by the seller, that the feeling of being duped or swindled takes the luster and excitement away from the card, and I just don't enjoy it as I originally thought I would. It's still the same card I saw in June, I just feel differently about it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Yes it is and that's why I buzz right by his listings. I have completed probably over 50K worth of deals from forum members and never had a problem. Nothing but quality guys for the most part with a couple of dopey MCdope dopes.... I think he'll do the right thing....eventually. Either just make a simple refund for a guy who's not happy or shove it down his throat and risk his reputation further. Good Luck!

That train has left the station.