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  #151  
Old 02-03-2023, 01:02 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Circling back to the original subject, which is frankly less interesting than this investigation into the ATC/AL partnership, I started digging into Mike Donovan as well, for some reason his card may be so oddly difficult.

Donovan was a fascinating guy on his own, about 1910 he was in his 60's and still prominent in sporting circles. He was a personal friend of Theodore Roosevelt and appeared routinely in the press as an expert on sport, fitness, health in old age, and all-around manliness. He was at that time, as his T220 notes, the boxing director of the New York Athletic Club, the prominent sportsmen organization that Fullgraff was also an active and dedicated member of, and still active in sparring.

Donovan appears to have been anti-tobacco. In a 1918 book compiling issues of a journal titled "Good Health", is a section featuring anti-tobacco statements from authorities on grounds "physical, mental, and moral". this includes a statement from Mr. Donovan (page 533, https://books.googleusercontent.com/...Arjon4_xydvp):


"Mike Donovan, formerly athletic director of the New York Athletic Club:

'Anybody who smokes can never hope to succeed in any line of endeavor, as smoking weakens the heart and lungs and ruins the stomach and affects the entire nervous system.

Physicians who have had much to do with alcoholic inebriates realize that there is a direct relationship between alcohol addiction and tobacco abuse. The first effect of tobacco smoking is stimulating, with a rise of blood pressure; and if the smoking be continued, the nerve cells are depressed. The depression is cumulative in the system of the smoker, and after a varying interval (of days, weeks or months) it creates an instinctive demand for the antidote to tobacco poisoning - and that is alcohol. The intemperate use of tobacco thus explains 75 per cent of all drink-habit cases. The alcoholic thirst is engendered and inflamed by smoke.

The real danger in smoking consists largely in the habit of inhalation whereby the volatilized poisons are brought into immediate contact with at least 1,000 square feet of vascular air-sac walls in the lungs, and are thus promptly and fully absorbed to be diffused into the blood and carried on their disastrous errand to the several organs of the body.

The world of today needs men, not those whose minds and will power have been weakened or destroyed by the desire and craving for alcohol and tobacco, but instead men with initiative and vigor, whose mentality is untainted by ruinous habits.

Every young man should aspire to take advantage of the opportunity which at some time during his life beckons him, and he should be ready with the freshness of youth and not enveloped in the fumes of an offensive and injurious cigarette.'"


There is hardly room for equivocation in this statement, 8 years after the T220 set was issued. If Donovan was passionately against smoking, it makes sense he would not want his image used to sell them. It also makes sense he would sign a general release for a club friend, that like Hyland's may not have mentioned tobacco at all. And it makes sense that this club friend may have persuaded him to reconsider and allow the use of his image, reinstating him in t220-2 white borders. And it makes sense that, as the boxing instructor at the club of which the architect of the card set was an active and dedicated member and apparently made friends everywhere he went, it is Donovan alone who gets two cards in that second issue.

Still does not explain the bizarre background change between the two issues of T220 to his card's artwork, but perhaps this has something to do with why he is so difficult.

On a completely unrelated note, this journal is fascinating as an insight into the leading health theories of a century ago on a whole host of issues. Perhaps I am simply easily entertained and sidetracked.

Found some more after reading Alpheus Greer/Marshall Stillman's 1918 biography of Donovan "Mike Donovan: The Making of A Man" which contains a chapter printing the comments of Donovan's many students about him (always full of praise, the man was either a Saint or these are awfully biased). Mr. E.W. Kearney reported:

"Abstaining from, I may say abhorring, both liquor and tobacco, he was never afraid to declare his principles in that direction, and I know he exerted great influence over many young men in causing them to do likewise. In short, he was a wonderful power for good, apart from his professional boxing capacity." (page 239).

Donovan is also quoted in the 1923 book "The Church and Tobacco" published by the "No-Tobacco Army" in its section of quotes form famous people. For those who believe Connie Mack's distaste of tobacco relates to Eddie Plank's T206 card, he is quoted right after Donovan's "A boy who smokes can never hope to succeed in any line of endeavor" (121). This quote also appears in other anti-tobacco works.

The 1917 Practical Education repeats an extended version of this Donovan quote, alongside assaults on smoking (The "little white slaver") from Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings, Walter Johnson, Clark Griffith, Ty Cobb, Connie Mack, and Red Dooin (pages 480-482). All but Mack sure didn't seen to have an issue with signing image rights away for big tobacco, and Cobb's hypocrisy in the harshness of his comments considering that he had his own brand is just absolutely astounding.

Several variations of Donovan's op-ed that I originally sourced in Good Health were published in other works for a number of years in the early 20th century. He is an oft-cited criticizer of smoking from the people very upset by the practice.

Greer's book makes frequent reference to Donovan's social life in the NYAC, the club for which Fullgraff served on a number of committees and was an active member of its social affairs. I highly doubt I will ever find a primary source document saying it to prove it beyond doubt, but Donovan's SP'ing and then reinstating into the set (with 2 cards even after reinsertion) seems best explained and most likely to be a combination of his distaste for tobacco and his probable friendship (at minimum, a club acquaintance) with the man making those cards.

I am not surprised there is a probable reason for the strange rarity (pulled, and put back again is not the normal pattern), but I am still surprised that the sheet layout is clearly not Donovan and Corbett being together on the sheet, but far apart. Deductively there is almost certainly a separate reason that Corbett was very short printed, and then reinstated also. Corbett I can find almost nothing relating to tobacco at all. Late in life he even had a radio show dedicated to health, but he never mentioned tobacco at all (Fields, "James J. Corbett", page 229).
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  #152  
Old 02-03-2023, 07:04 AM
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Found some more after reading Alpheus Greer/Marshall Stillman's 1918 biography of Donovan "Mike Donovan: The Making of A Man" which contains a chapter printing the comments of Donovan's many students about him (always full of praise, the man was either a Saint or these are awfully biased). Mr. E.W. Kearney reported:

"Abstaining from, I may say abhorring, both liquor and tobacco, he was never afraid to declare his principles in that direction, and I know he exerted great influence over many young men in causing them to do likewise. In short, he was a wonderful power for good, apart from his professional boxing capacity." (page 239).

Donovan is also quoted in the 1923 book "The Church and Tobacco" published by the "No-Tobacco Army" in its section of quotes form famous people. For those who believe Connie Mack's distaste of tobacco relates to Eddie Plank's T206 card, he is quoted right after Donovan's "A boy who smokes can never hope to succeed in any line of endeavor" (121). This quote also appears in other anti-tobacco works.

The 1917 Practical Education repeats an extended version of this Donovan quote, alongside assaults on smoking (The "little white slaver") from Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings, Walter Johnson, Clark Griffith, Ty Cobb, Connie Mack, and Red Dooin (pages 480-482). All but Mack sure didn't seen to have an issue with signing image rights away for big tobacco, and Cobb's hypocrisy in the harshness of his comments considering that he had his own brand is just absolutely astounding.

Several variations of Donovan's op-ed that I originally sourced in Good Health were published in other works for a number of years in the early 20th century. He is an oft-cited criticizer of smoking from the people very upset by the practice.

Greer's book makes frequent reference to Donovan's social life in the NYAC, the club for which Fullgraff served on a number of committees and was an active member of its social affairs. I highly doubt I will ever find a primary source document saying it to prove it beyond doubt, but Donovan's SP'ing and then reinstating into the set (with 2 cards even after reinsertion) seems best explained and most likely to be a combination of his distaste for tobacco and his probable friendship (at minimum, a club acquaintance) with the man making those cards.

I am not surprised there is a probable reason for the strange rarity (pulled, and put back again is not the normal pattern), but I am still surprised that the sheet layout is clearly not Donovan and Corbett being together on the sheet, but far apart. Deductively there is almost certainly a separate reason that Corbett was very short printed, and then reinstated also. Corbett I can find almost nothing relating to tobacco at all. Late in life he even had a radio show dedicated to health, but he never mentioned tobacco at all (Fields, "James J. Corbett", page 229).
It's interesting that Dooin is mentioned as being anti-tobacco as he is probably the most prominent of all the subjects in the early ads for T206's. He's at the front of a Sporting life ad and he's on the same Hindu ad twice.

Sporting Life ad.jpg

img653.jpg
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  #153  
Old 02-03-2023, 11:18 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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It's interesting that Dooin is mentioned as being anti-tobacco as he is probably the most prominent of all the subjects in the early ads for T206's. He's at the front of a Sporting life ad and he's on the same Hindu ad twice.
Here's the full quote from Red Dooin they published (page 482). Also attaching the Cobb, which is the longest and the most striking in its hypocrisy as Cobb clearly was a tobacco paid man.

It's possible some of these guys did not actually approve their images for the cards. We only have 2 permission letters, one of which says it's for cigarette cards and the other of which says nothing about tobacco at all. Its very possible some of these guys signed without ever knowing it was for tobacco advertising. Also possible some didn't sign at all. The Hyland letter indicates they were diligent about following the law, but I'm not clear on who the NY state law entirely covers or if the courts ever really got into such things with people who resided and worked in other states but came to NY sometimes. Players from other states might not have required one, Hyland indicates they probably sought permission from those in the National and American leagues who would have come to NY with some frequency, but maybe they didn't always do this and it's very possible they didn't do it for distant minor leagues that didn't have New York teams or players.
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  #154  
Old 02-03-2023, 12:52 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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The idea that someone must keep their business dealings in line with what they believe is right is a fairly new concept.
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  #155  
Old 02-03-2023, 12:54 PM
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Here's the full quote from Red Dooin they published (page 482). Also attaching the Cobb, which is the longest and the most striking in its hypocrisy as Cobb clearly was a tobacco paid man.

It's possible some of these guys did not actually approve their images for the cards. We only have 2 permission letters, one of which says it's for cigarette cards and the other of which says nothing about tobacco at all. Its very possible some of these guys signed without ever knowing it was for tobacco advertising. Also possible some didn't sign at all. The Hyland letter indicates they were diligent about following the law, but I'm not clear on who the NY state law entirely covers or if the courts ever really got into such things with people who resided and worked in other states but came to NY sometimes. Players from other states might not have required one, Hyland indicates they probably sought permission from those in the National and American leagues who would have come to NY with some frequency, but maybe they didn't always do this and it's very possible they didn't do it for distant minor leagues that didn't have New York teams or players.
Very interesting Greg, thanks for sharing that.
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  #156  
Old 02-08-2023, 10:56 PM
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Just confirming the sheet layout. Corbett and Randall/Belasco were the most tenuous placements as I had to eyeball the cut of the edges from less than perfect photographs and guesstimate where they belonged.

The guesstimate was correct. The Randall/Belasco is indeed above Coburn, fitting in perfectly in it's cut against both him and Jackson. Randall's back is more toned than the others - I suspect it was the one stored on top, upside down. We will probably never know the full backstory of who had these and brought them to the antiques dealer who sold them for pennies (Twice! The second time after being made aware of what they had), but it seems these sat untouched for a century in the NY area.

Corbett fit's in perfectly with Frayne. It is the only top edge panel with the white cut off, but most of the left side cards have their border trimmed off (only Choyinski has the sheet's left border, confirming for us that that it is indeed 5 panels to a row, 20 cards per row). As we have 23 of the original 25 surviving and only 1 with the corner still present (Jordan), this makes sense. What I took to be small staple or pin holes in the Corbett from the picture turned out not to be holes on close examination; it was just detritus that brushed right off when touched.

In hand, almost every card has differences between it's 8 copies, so that I can match a specific copy of a final production card to which of the 8 slots it came from. Donovan is difficult to do this for, the 8 are all very very similar. McGovern and Driscoll are the easiest. There are noticeable differences in the red on the Corbett's. It would be interesting to see if the surviving Corbett's all track to the same slot or not, but I haven't saved pictures of the ones I've seen, only the Donovan's.

Ryan and McAuliffe evidently have not survived to modernity (the single McAuliffe proof card that exists is almost certainly not from this sheet and source), and must be the lower left and lower right corners, though which is which we probably will never know. Should anyone have a miscut of these cards, a picture would be greatly appreciated.

Attached are the fake news 'holes', the sheet put together as it has been reconstituted today, and then the full layout with the Choyinski's recreated as best as I can, and Ryan/McAuliffe placed one each where they would have gone.
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File Type: jpg IMG_0091.jpg (127.2 KB, 107 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0166.jpg (215.6 KB, 104 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0167.jpg (216.1 KB, 104 views)
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  #157  
Old 03-07-2023, 04:21 PM
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  #158  
Old 03-08-2023, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Just confirming the sheet layout. Corbett and Randall/Belasco were the most tenuous placements as I had to eyeball the cut of the edges from less than perfect photographs and guesstimate where they belonged.

The guesstimate was correct. The Randall/Belasco is indeed above Coburn, fitting in perfectly in it's cut against both him and Jackson. Randall's back is more toned than the others - I suspect it was the one stored on top, upside down. We will probably never know the full backstory of who had these and brought them to the antiques dealer who sold them for pennies (Twice! The second time after being made aware of what they had), but it seems these sat untouched for a century in the NY area.

Corbett fit's in perfectly with Frayne. It is the only top edge panel with the white cut off, but most of the left side cards have their border trimmed off (only Choyinski has the sheet's left border, confirming for us that that it is indeed 5 panels to a row, 20 cards per row). As we have 23 of the original 25 surviving and only 1 with the corner still present (Jordan), this makes sense. What I took to be small staple or pin holes in the Corbett from the picture turned out not to be holes on close examination; it was just detritus that brushed right off when touched.

In hand, almost every card has differences between it's 8 copies, so that I can match a specific copy of a final production card to which of the 8 slots it came from. Donovan is difficult to do this for, the 8 are all very very similar. McGovern and Driscoll are the easiest. There are noticeable differences in the red on the Corbett's. It would be interesting to see if the surviving Corbett's all track to the same slot or not, but I haven't saved pictures of the ones I've seen, only the Donovan's.

Ryan and McAuliffe evidently have not survived to modernity (the single McAuliffe proof card that exists is almost certainly not from this sheet and source), and must be the lower left and lower right corners, though which is which we probably will never know. Should anyone have a miscut of these cards, a picture would be greatly appreciated.

Attached are the fake news 'holes', the sheet put together as it has been reconstituted today, and then the full layout with the Choyinski's recreated as best as I can, and Ryan/McAuliffe placed one each where they would have gone.

I was on vacation when you posted this Greg and I just read it this morning. Great info on the sheet layout.

Member mkdltn posted this info in 2010 he didn't post often but his posts were informative and well researched. The T220 sheet seems to be the right size for the hoe #5 press one of the two that he suggested were used for the T cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkdltn View Post
I am not sure about the 19 inch press track measurement. That might be the measurement for a proving press.

My research leads me to believe that a HOE NO.4 or HOE NO.5 flatbed stop cylinder lithographic press was likely used to produce the T cards. I found an article in an electrical engineering magazine from 1897 describing the new facility that ALC moved into after consolidation. This is approximately 12 years before production of the T206 cards. On the picture of the sixth floor layout posted below there are 30 lithographic presses. I believe the article mentions that this is one of three floors filled with presses. At the time a HOE NO.4 press would cost anywhere from 3000 to 5000 dollars. That would be a capital investment of 120,000 1897 dollars, That is very roughly about 3 and a half million dollars in todays money. (That is very much an approximation because the inflation calculator only goes back to 1914) the point being that I think that ALC would have squeezed every bit of use out those presses and to think that they would still be in functioning 12 to 15 years after installation is not beyond possibility.

The bed of the HOE presses is also posted in image 3. these dimensions lead me to believe that the sheets could have been much likely larger than you would think. The HOE No. 5 could use a 36x52 in stone or plate. Schmidt litho also used similar presses.
01ab.jpg
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  #159  
Old 03-08-2023, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
I was on vacation when you posted this Greg and I just read it this morning. Great info on the sheet layout.

Member mkdltn posted this info in 2010 he didn't post often but his posts were informative and well researched. The T220 sheet seems to be the right size for the hoe #5 press one of the two that he suggested were used for the T cards.



Attachment 561422
20 cards across = ~50 inches
10 cards vertical = ~33 inches

Adding in the white borders to the above, that is pretty much exactly what this gentleman postulates as the max size.

A T206 sheet this size would be much larger than most seem to postulate. I would think different size sheets were used for different sets depending on facility and what other printing jobs were going on at that exact time, but there's no reason the small size cards wouldn't be done on large sheets.
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  #160  
Old 03-08-2023, 10:19 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Also, got shown these on the non-sports side. These sheets were evidently destroyed and cutup, for 2 of the fragments reside in my collection now.

There is so little ATC uncut card material left to work with here to make deductions from.

Almost all the rest are tiny print color test 'sheets' that are obviously a different size from production runs.
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File Type: jpg 8260a_lg.jpg (201.6 KB, 83 views)
File Type: jpg 8260c_lg.jpg (198.1 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg 8260e_lg.jpg (196.6 KB, 79 views)
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  #161  
Old 03-09-2023, 09:02 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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as far as I know, print shops that do general work have a variety of press sizes.
The tiny place I was at had three, a small one that did regular 10 1/2x11 or smaller paper, one that did 24inch paper and two that did 35 inch. Later a 35inch two color press was added.

What press was used was a matter of what was being done and how many.

A couple thousand business cards went on the little press, a thousand book covers showing a fighter jet in full color for a recruiting place went on the 24, and a huge order for multi part bank deposit slips went on the 35.

The larger presses aren't and as far as I know weren't limited to large paper sizes. So the 35" presses could easily run the 24" stuff, or the business cards.
I'm sure there was a formula but the area they never had me help in was the business end. (There were formulas I learned for machining in tech school, and it seems like very similar ones would work well for printing. )

But...

With the quantities of cards in general we've learned were printed, I can't imagine them being done on a small press.
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  #162  
Old 03-09-2023, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
as far as I know, print shops that do general work have a variety of press sizes.
The tiny place I was at had three, a small one that did regular 10 1/2x11 or smaller paper, one that did 24inch paper and two that did 35 inch. Later a 35inch two color press was added.

What press was used was a matter of what was being done and how many.

A couple thousand business cards went on the little press, a thousand book covers showing a fighter jet in full color for a recruiting place went on the 24, and a huge order for multi part bank deposit slips went on the 35.

The larger presses aren't and as far as I know weren't limited to large paper sizes. So the 35" presses could easily run the 24" stuff, or the business cards.
I'm sure there was a formula but the area they never had me help in was the business end. (There were formulas I learned for machining in tech school, and it seems like very similar ones would work well for printing. )

But...

With the quantities of cards in general we've learned were printed, I can't imagine them being done on a small press.
Do you know anything about the speed of presses in 1910? From what I can find, it was notable when a new press was installed at one of these lithographers, and sometimes we can see claimed speed rates from the press makers or lithographers. In 1916, Brett purchased one that could do over 2,500 sheets an hour at 45x65 inches. I can't find yet a record closer to late 1910. Sounds like it would have been less than this per press per hour.

A press that could spit out 2,500 sheets an hour would produce ~25,000 sheets a day. With 200 silver border cards a day, that's 5,000,000 cards in one day, from one press.

If it was, in late 1910, say, 1,000 sheets an hour, that would still be 10,000 sheets of 200 cards each - 2,000,000 cards in one day from one press. And this is for T220, one of the physically largest of the T sets. T206 size sets would fit far more cards if they were on sheets near this size.

Well less than 2,000,000 silver border cards were probably produced. I doubt more than ~5,000 exist today, and that would be a very high estimate.

I had thought they wouldn't be nearly this efficient. We've talked a lot about the huge scale of the T card production and how all evidence is that it greatly exceeds what people think, and that the survival rate is much lower than people generally think.
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  #163  
Old 03-10-2023, 02:20 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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I think the figure I saw for the 1910 era flatbed presses was around 800 sheets and hour.
There's a reason the rotaries killed off the flatbed presses so quickly.

The ones we had I think could run about 4000 sheets/hour.

The new ones.... 15000/hour up to 21,000/hr!

And remember, they were doing around 8 colors plus the backs, and there had to be some drying time in between, so figure about a week and a half from blank to finished cards IF they used multiple presses because I can't imagine changing the stone on a flatbed that size was a quick task.

ALC and Hoe were pretty close, Hoe had some rotary typeset presses that were multi color and fed from a roll of material. I have to really organize my thoughts and write them up, but there's a bit of evidence that a 2 color press was used. Which is really interesting because supposedly the first rotary offset litho press was invented in 1910.

Hoe wrote a book mostly self serving in 1902 covering the history of presses, mostly the ones made for typography and newspapers. Those were much faster.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6354...-h/63545-h.htm
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  #164  
Old 03-10-2023, 03:05 PM
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I think the majority of the T206's were printed on large sheets just like the one you have assembled with your T220 panels. I say majority because I think it's possible that some smaller sheets were printed at other facility's with ties to ALC.

We have pretty solid evidence of the minimum width of the sheets with one of the plate scratch sheets that has 24 cards in a horizontal row.

I think they changed the layouts but kept the sheet size when that got to the the last two smaller print groups (3 and 4).

The backs these test print scraps show a minimum of 17 cards in a horizontal row and it could easily also be 24 if the "exclusive 12" were double printed horizontally to fit the sheet and that would explain why the two different Pfeffer's have different subjects on the backs.

Test Print Scrap - Copy.jpg
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  #165  
Old 03-12-2023, 01:07 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
I think the figure I saw for the 1910 era flatbed presses was around 800 sheets and hour.
There's a reason the rotaries killed off the flatbed presses so quickly.

The ones we had I think could run about 4000 sheets/hour.

The new ones.... 15000/hour up to 21,000/hr!

And remember, they were doing around 8 colors plus the backs, and there had to be some drying time in between, so figure about a week and a half from blank to finished cards IF they used multiple presses because I can't imagine changing the stone on a flatbed that size was a quick task.

ALC and Hoe were pretty close, Hoe had some rotary typeset presses that were multi color and fed from a roll of material. I have to really organize my thoughts and write them up, but there's a bit of evidence that a 2 color press was used. Which is really interesting because supposedly the first rotary offset litho press was invented in 1910.

Hoe wrote a book mostly self serving in 1902 covering the history of presses, mostly the ones made for typography and newspapers. Those were much faster.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6354...-h/63545-h.htm
Thank you for this.

The scale of the operation outside the direct orienting seems like it would be the larger pain. The need (and massive space) to dry all these sheets, to process through the cutting machine, and then to pack the single cards (I'd be fairly surprised if there was much collation work - people buying packs to get the cards must have been awfully frustrated with getting the same ~25 subjects all the time over and over) and to ship them out must have taken a lot of people in 1910.
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  #166  
Old 03-12-2023, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
I think the majority of the T206's were printed on large sheets just like the one you have assembled with your T220 panels. I say majority because I think it's possible that some smaller sheets were printed at other facility's with ties to ALC.

We have pretty solid evidence of the minimum width of the sheets with one of the plate scratch sheets that has 24 cards in a horizontal row.

I think they changed the layouts but kept the sheet size when that got to the the last two smaller print groups (3 and 4).

The backs these test print scraps show a minimum of 17 cards in a horizontal row and it could easily also be 24 if the "exclusive 12" were double printed horizontally to fit the sheet and that would explain why the two different Pfeffer's have different subjects on the backs.

Attachment 561764
Looking at the non-sport ATC sets of the T205/T206 physical dimensions, 25 would across would make perfect sense. 50 card sets and 25 card waves are indicated as a standard size. Unlike T206, I have not come across one of these non-sport cards in that size that has a different subject showing above or below on a miscut card. What I expect to find and what we do find are often very different, but demonstrating 24 across at least makes perfect sense.
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  #167  
Old 03-12-2023, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
I think the figure I saw for the 1910 era flatbed presses was around 800 sheets and hour.
There's a reason the rotaries killed off the flatbed presses so quickly.

The ones we had I think could run about 4000 sheets/hour.

The new ones.... 15000/hour up to 21,000/hr!

And remember, they were doing around 8 colors plus the backs, and there had to be some drying time in between, so figure about a week and a half from blank to finished cards IF they used multiple presses because I can't imagine changing the stone on a flatbed that size was a quick task.

ALC and Hoe were pretty close, Hoe had some rotary typeset presses that were multi color and fed from a roll of material. I have to really organize my thoughts and write them up, but there's a bit of evidence that a 2 color press was used. Which is really interesting because supposedly the first rotary offset litho press was invented in 1910.

Hoe wrote a book mostly self serving in 1902 covering the history of presses, mostly the ones made for typography and newspapers. Those were much faster.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6354...-h/63545-h.htm
Edward Hett invented a multi color rotary sheet press in 1899 and he sold his invention to American Lithograph.

01b.jpg


Here's the thread I posted about his invention and sale to ALC.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ighlight=Press
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Old 03-12-2023, 08:22 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Edward Hett invented a multi color rotary sheet press in 1899 and he sold his invention to American Lithograph.

Attachment 562118


Here's the thread I posted about his invention and sale to ALC.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ighlight=Press
Damn, I must be getting old and forgetting stuff.

What's interesting is that most online histories of printing and lithography still don't mention Hett at all, but attribute the first rotary press with plates to someone else in (assuming I'm remembering it right) 1910.

I do wonder if Hetts press was built, or how and if it worked. I can see some potential problems, but there were rotary presses in newspaper work well before that. Just not lithographic presses.
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Old 03-13-2023, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Damn, I must be getting old and forgetting stuff.

What's interesting is that most online histories of printing and lithography still don't mention Hett at all, but attribute the first rotary press with plates to someone else in (assuming I'm remembering it right) 1910.

I do wonder if Hetts press was built, or how and if it worked. I can see some potential problems, but there were rotary presses in newspaper work well before that. Just not lithographic presses.
That's surprising because it's mentioned in 100's of newspapers from 1899 until his death in 1915 and although he is credited with other inventions the multi-color press is the one thing mentioned in his obituaries. The $300,000 that he received from American Lithograph in 1900 is equivalent to more than 10.5 million dollars today.

Multi color pressThe_Rushville_Recorder_Fri__Dec_8__1899_.jpg

Multi-color press inventor Salt_Lake_Telegram_Mon__Aug_16__1915_.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 03-13-2023 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 03-13-2023, 09:45 AM
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I think it may be just the searches I've been doing.
Hetts press apparently prints directly from the cylinders, and I've been looking at offset presses, which are credited to Rubel just after 1900. Invented 1901, and in production by 1905.
https://www.si.edu/es/object/nmah_882246

Multi color offset presses are basically just two or more of those strung together with a common feed and output. And in some ways hadn't changed much into the 1980's.

I've been reading some of his patents, and they're very interesting. The printing cylinders were a copper tube with a cast zinc surface that could be used for several other types of printing. The patent I read didn't specifically mention lithography, but an article about it did. That use may be in a different patent, and the surface may have been something other than zinc, as I can't picture that being a good material for water retention. But who knows? I may have to experiment, zinc plates are used for etching and zinc plated plates for corrosion resistance, and they're not expensive.

More interesting to me but not at all applicable to cards, is that it looks like different types of printing may have been possible on the same machine.
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Old 03-15-2023, 01:35 AM
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Hyland's contract that never mentions tobacco at all seems to indicate rights were secured for more than just the primary purpose. It is certainly no accident that the verbiage gives permission for any and all use of his picture to the lithographers, not to the tobacco concern.

That the E229 sheets were found with the T220 Silver sheets strongly suggests that there is a printing relationship and these are probably a Brett production; it would be difficult to argue it is more likely that the unique production material just happened to come together into the same spot from what appears to be the items of a non-collector. The checklist is studded with athletes known to have given their rights to the tobacco cards. It is, as far as I am aware, impossible to know if these panels were for E229 or D353, but the cards are the same and probably produced at about the same time. One would deduce, from the discovery, that this is a late 1910 or early 1911 set, and the checklist strongly suggests a 1908-1912 timeframe.

First, here's some of their material from the period of the cards and the product.

In late 1910, National Licorice seems to have significantly upped their marketing, as I can't find much on the Y&S product line from the card backs. Here's a pair of ads, from December 1910. One shows their Y&S licorice gum; this ad with nothing but a picture of the box was run throughout 1910. The packages look to me smaller than would comfortably fit the cards, but there's no scale here. Some of these ads also ran in German language US publications, like "apotheker-zeitung", which looks like a catalogue of apothecaries.

This 1911 ad from the Spatula has some more detail into their marketing verbiage and medicinal focus.

A 1913 ad from the Pacific Pharmacist from Wm. DuVal & Co. was their west coast distributor, and their product had a wide range of geographic sale. West coast distributors, marketing to minority group publications, seems to have been sizable operation. There are numerous other ads from the 1910's easily found for their Y&S product line.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1910 Ad - National Druggist, December.jpg (127.1 KB, 60 views)
File Type: jpg 1910 Box - Druggist Circular.jpg (81.4 KB, 60 views)
File Type: jpg 1911 - The Spatula, January.jpg (59.1 KB, 58 views)
File Type: jpg 1913 - Pacific Pharmacist.jpg (97.9 KB, 60 views)
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  #172  
Old 03-15-2023, 02:01 AM
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So we have the company, we have the panels, we have the deductive probability that these were printed alongside the tobacco cards and used the same permission letters used for T218. Earlier, though, we have deduced that their must have been an exclusive element to the T card agreement between American Lithography and it's probably-but-still-not-proven-beyond-doubt shadow subsidiaries, and the ATC and its subsidiaries. If there had not been an exclusive element, then there's no reason Knapp and team wouldn't have produced card images for other products, as it quickly spawned a fad and numerous small operations in the 1909-1912 timeframe started putting out their own, generally lower quality, card issues.

Either one of the deductions must be false, or National Licorice must be owned by the ATC. So I went searching.

National Licorice was a subsidiary of the American Tobacco Company. A November, 1907 issue of The Tobacco Worker contains much discussion of government action against the ATC, the case for the monopoly, and the companies involved. I will link rather than screen cap as there is much else here of interest for researchers beyond a single page, it goes into detail about the takeover of Bollman, the structure of the monopoly, and more. The part pertaining to National Licorice is on page 14 of the issue (page 305 in the pdf file of the compilation book here: https://books.googleusercontent.com/...KkC61ZBE6AH1-O.

It states that the Continental Company, which we have discussed in other threads as an ATC front, purchased the MacAndrews & Forbes firm, created a new firm of that name in New Jersey, and consumed the old firm as well as Mellor & Rittenhouse. Of the $3,000,000 worth of voting shares, the ATC owned $2,112,000. This company went into the business of importing licorice root and paste and selling licorice products. In 1902, MacAndrews & Forbes bought the Stamford Manufacturing Companies root and paste business, and Stamford agreed not to compete in that area of business.

In 1902, MacAndrews & Forbes (Owned by Continental, owned by American Tobacco) founded the National Licorice Company, which bought the businesses of Young & Smylie and F.B. & V.P. Scudder. Frederick Scudder seems to have been managing part of the company after the acquisition. National Licorice, their subsidiary, agreed "not to manufacture licorice paste to be used in tobacco products", i.e. a different subsidiary would be doing that part.

It is noted that two competitors were left by the end of 1902, and that the ATC's subsidiaries began to sell paste far under cost to drive them out of business.

So licorice's components were apparently used in tobacco, and licorice was dominated by the ATC as a result. The E229's were produced by the monopoly for a subsidiary firm (3 times removed from them), and thus the American Lithographic partners could and did produce cards for them.
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Old 03-15-2023, 02:22 AM
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This leaves D353. D353 is identical to E229, except for the different back. Attached is an example, E229 on the left and D353 on the right. These Koester Bread cards are more difficult than E229, which I wouldn't call easy.

Koester's cards must be:
1) Again, one of the previous deductions is wrong or

2) The cards are not from 1910-1911 but a few years later, a reprinting after the fall of the tobacco monopoly, like T214, T215, etc. by which time whatever agreement they had had with Duke wasn't an issue, or

3) Koester's was owned by an ATC owned firm or

4) The cards are a pirated issue, and somehow someone else stole the images and made cards with them.

I can find numerous ads and records of Koesters Bread in Baltimore in the mid teens and the early 1920's (they issued base ball pictures in 1921), they seem to have continued on for decades after this. According to a coupon they were founded in 1886. Not finding much in the 1910-1911 period yet.
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File Type: jpeg Homade-Bread-3988948821.jpeg (194.0 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0396.jpg (111.0 KB, 60 views)
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  #174  
Old 03-15-2023, 06:16 AM
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I haven't found anything on the D353's but here's a June 1916 ad for D1 cards and albums.

D1 Koester Bread Album adThe_Evening_Sun_Mon__Jun_12__1916_.jpg
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Old 03-16-2023, 03:05 PM
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While flipping through my cards this morning, it occurs that another deduction can be made.

The attached Coburn (scan stolen from previous owner) is from the proofing stage or a scrapped sheet. It is from very, very early in white border production, if it is not from the proofing stage. We know this because of the man at left. In the silver series, the man is fully drawn. Coburn is one of two cards with artistic changes; a small minority of Coburn's in early white border production (Mecca factory 649 only - Tolstoi was likely printed at some remove from the Mecca run; it was issued in March of 1911) have the man at left as a blue silhouette, like it is here on this card.

The upside down wrong back features Gans. An upside down wrong back isn't random. For it to happen, the sheet must be put in upside down, which means that the card on the front will dictate what card constitutes the wrong back that is upside down. A card on the left edge of the sheet won't have an upside down wrong back of a card from the middle of the sheet; it will be the card in the corresponding slot on the right side of the sheet.

Now that we know 92% of the sheet layout, we can see if this early white border production matches the silver sheet. It should be noted that, while I am quite confident I have the panels arranged correctly, it is possible final production was different. This is not the only T220 Silver proof sheet that would have been run; we can be sure it wasn't the last as they haven't tested the backs, the silver borders, and they corrected the error on Willie Beecher's card before they started actual production. The production sheet is probably the same layout, as it would take labor to 0 gain to redesign it, but this is a deduction and not a proven 100% fact. Some changes are very possible to have been made shortly after production began. Whether Corbett and Donovan were removed and replaced on the sheet with other cards (almost certainly not full panels of 8 DP'd), left as blanks, or printed and manually cut out/removed is a mystery to me.

Coburn is in the middle rows on the left edge. Gans is on the middle rows on the right edge. This sheet layout matches this upside wrong back (the only one I am aware of in this set) from the white borders. It is of course possible that this is mere coincidence, but it is statistically unlikely. The white borders were very probably produced using this same layout, on 2 sheets of 25 with the second sheet featuring the 25 new pictures and art style that was not present in the original wave. Wave printing and issue seems to have been how a lot of 50 card series were done; usually not so obvious because 1) they didn't change the borders and 2) we don't have uncut sheets of them but their are hints in how certain backs are only available in half of a series sometimes.
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File Type: jpg IMG_0167.jpg (197.9 KB, 49 views)
File Type: jpg T220 ungraded Coburn printer freak.jpg (95.0 KB, 50 views)
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  #176  
Old 03-27-2023, 09:01 PM
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National Licorice, after the breakup of the ATC, ended up going into the tobacco business themselves directly. This ad is from 1924.
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File Type: jpg 1924 - Cigarettes? .jpg (68.1 KB, 40 views)
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  #177  
Old 03-29-2023, 08:11 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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At a penny a pack I suspect those are candy cigarettes.
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Old 03-29-2023, 12:10 PM
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At a penny a pack I suspect those are candy cigarettes.
That makes more sense. I didnít know candy cigarettes was a thing until right now
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Old 04-05-2023, 10:55 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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That makes more sense. I didnít know candy cigarettes was a thing until right now
Well, they were, were sort of popular in the 70's, but basically got put out of production because the were "teaching kids to smoke"
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