Beckett is the most strict and reputable!

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Posted By: (www.bestbaseballcards.com)

First of all, I would not just take a "cheap shot" at a grading company. I have absolutely "NO REASON" to do so. I am a "small time collector", that has "NO BIAS" whatsoever. I am sure that you could not state the same. My main interest is in the interest of the collector/investor. Like I said, I will send GAI graded cards to Beckett and publish my results, and let the public make their own mind up.

You are right in some respects....I don't understand what is going on in the card grading industry, which is why my post. But this is what I do understand.....

1. Beckett doesn't have many graded "VINTAGE" because, for the most part, most vintage that are "gradable" have already been graded. Most of the premium cards have already been graded by psa or sgc.

2. As far as Beckett not knowing what they are doing, I believe that is how they became so popular...and I was actually going to pursue a story on that. When beckett first started grading vintage, using the "BGS" mark, they grossly undergraded....I actually bought as many bgs vintage cards as I could find on ebay, and resold them later at good profits. The fact that they didn't know what they were doing, gave them the "reputation" of being the most strict, so the collectors that wanted the "best" went with beckett. Today, since they realized their "error" in grading vintage, they changed their mark to "BVG". Regardless, of their initial mistakes, their reputation for being the strictest grading company lives on, and I believe "RIGHTFULLY" so.

3. I personally do not know why PSA's president spun off of PSA to start his own grading company...perhaps you can shed some light here. MY BELIEF is that it has to do with the casing of PSA graded cards does not lend itself to being tamerproof with modern technology, as the FBI has recently convicted a "MAJOR DEALER" for substituting lower grade cards in PSA casings. This being the case, I am a little leary of buying PSA graded cards anymore....and that being said, leaves us to only a couple reputable grading companies, and I see much more strictness and quality in Beckett than I witness in GAI.

4. Ok, vintage aside, I see Beckett BGS 9.5 consistently sell for MUCH more than PSA 10's, and are MUCH More popular for modern era cards. I definetely have seen a trend away from PSA and towards Beckett. I guess I kind of understand why many reputable dealers are standing behind GAI, as their collections would be worth much less if their cards were graded by Beckett instead of GAI. But as an investor, I know what I am getting with Beckett, and believe we are seeing a change in generations.

I believe GAI definetely will gain market share, and gain momentum. I also believe that more PSA cards may be resubmitted to the less costly and more lenient GAI over Beckett, but that "MOST" gai cards, if submitted to Beckett will recieve a "LOWER GRADE".

GAI does have a "nicer" casing and look than PSA, but it still does not compare to Beckett's "lustrous" casing. I also like the black background GAI provides. If they were to provide a little nicer casing, and if they could grade as strict as beckett consistently, I would consider them, but right now, they would still be 4th on my list, below BGS, SGC, PSA.

On a final note, I am a laid-off computer engineer, that really enjoys the hobby. I am addicted to collecting even though I cannot afford it. I spend hours of research every day looking at marketing info from previously sold cards on ebay, and searching for stories of interest. If any one out there could offer an "intelligent computer type" with an interest in baseball cards a position in the $60K+ range, I am willing to travel! I can do web page development, card grading, database, desktop support, administration, networking, setting up workgroups, etc....


THE NEW GENERATION,
MIKE MCSWEENEY
-------------------------------------------
RESPONSE TO

jonathan perry <jperry8@nyc.rr.com> wrote:

Hi
I read your post and am really questioning what knowledge or experience you have with grading cards and or the card graders of the world. Simply put GAI is a first rate company and probably 60% of the PSA cards in existence were graded by mike baker in some capacity or another. He either graded them himself or trained the grader who eventually graded them.
PSA and GAI are the top two grading companies out there with SGC 3rd mostly because they are more lenient on centering.

Grab an SMR
call up some of the top dealers in the country
Andy Madec
Bill Goodwin
Wayne Varner
Dave Forman
Piedmont Cards
Bottom of the Ninth
Mastronet
Mile High
all of these dealers use PSA/SGC/GAI
all have very positive comments regarding GAI.

If you are a bidder in the mastro catalogue... 3 auctions ago there were about 10 global items, the August auction there were probably 50 and in Dec there are probably over 100 GAI items.

I really don't know if your comments were made because you don't understand what is going on with card grading or the card industry or you are just trying to take a cheap shot at a grading company but your statements hold no weight.

I spend at least 10 hours a day dealing with baseball cards and attend almost every major card show and GAI is making an impact. By the way BGS and BVG are not well respected and are a joke...at the last few card shows there are not even any vintage Beckett cards being sold by dealers. When was the last time you saw a Beckett card in a major auction they get no respect and have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

You have a nice website and do a great job of trying to educate collectors about cards I just wish you understand a bit more about card grading before you make such posts in the future

I am not trying to be mean but it is obvious from your post that you really are not that involved in the card industry or up to speed on what is going on with card grading.
If you have any questions I will be more than happy to answer them or explain in more detail.

regards
Jon

------------------------------------------------
IN RESPONSE TO Mike McSweeney (http://www.bestbaseballcards.com):
This company (GAI) seems to be getting a LOT of business, and I personally don't know why... Their prices can't be that much cheaper than BGS or PSA whom are well known and respected.

I bought my first GAI card the other day, and it obviously isn't as strict as PSA OR BGS, yet their cards seem to bring better prices than the other "non-established" grading companies.

I have had problems with all the "other" grading companies (ie pro, fgs, capitol and the like)...I really don't know why we need yet "ANOTHER" inferior grading company?

I see they have prior PSA employees, and some big names, and they have influence with some of the "big dealers", but I don't understand why the big dealers or collectors are giving them interest???

On a final note, are these forums just for pre war cards, and if so, does anyone know of any good forums for "non-pre-war"....

Thanks
Also...please check out my website (http://www.bestbaseballcards.com) and give comments/recommendations ----

[Archive]

Posted By: (www.bestbaseballcards.com)

BECKETT VS PSA

Let's take, what in my mind is a very potential card, the 1987 Fleer BARRY BOND'S Hottest. This is one of Barry's MOST rare rookies, next to possibly the 1986 Tiffany. It is definetely more rare in high grade.

GRADED BY BGS: 273
GRADED BY PSA: 301
GRADED BY GAI: 0

GRADED 9 OR HIGHER BY BGS: 83
GRADED 9 OR HIGHER BY PSA: 137

PSA 10 SOLD ON EBAY THIS MONTH: $700
BGS 9.5 SOLD ON EBAY THIS MONTH $1500

This shows several things:
1. BGS HAS GAINED MARKET SHARE ON PSA. PROBABLY HALF OF THE PSA GRADED CARDS WERE GRADED PRIOR TO BECKETT GRADING SERVICE EVEN EXISTED!!!

2. BGS 9.5 SELLS FOR MORE THAN DOUBLE THE PSA 10.

3. BGS IS MORE STRICT.

I am sure you will find similar pricing results with most modern era cards...another I just know off the top of my head is the bgs 9/psa 9 price comparsion of the 1982 TRaded ripken $300/$170

You can't argue statistics, and that is MY SPECIALTY. Again, most premium gradeable vintage cards have already been graded, so psa/sgc will REMAIN the most popular there, but that does not mean "NEW BUSINESS" to the grading companies....watch the trend...

I do believe you will see some GAI vintage come out for a couple reasons:

1. They will submit to GAI because they would get a better grade than if they sent to beckett...

2. BIAS'ed Relationships exist between the dealers and GAI.

3. Beckett costs more.

4. Think about it...for the most part, vintage cards have already been graded. If you see an influx of newly graded GAI cards, then cases are being opened and resubmitted for one of a couple reasons.... ensure previous graded cards have not been tampered with/authentic, or higher grades. Where did all of these newly graded GAI vintage magically appear from?
Doesn't it seem odd that there recently has been an increase in vintage graded cards on the market?

THE NEW GENERATION COLLECTOR,
MIKE MCSWEENEY
http://www.bestbaseballcards.com

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Posted By: Jay Miller

After reading his posts it seems like Mike is just trying to generate a little positive publicity for Beckett. From what I have seen Beckett is a non-issue in the vintage card grading debate. Plenty of vintage cards are currently being graded and plenty will be graded in the future. Next to none of these go to Beckett. There are three major graders for vintage material, with supporters and detractors for each, but Beckett ain't part of the conversation.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Mike--With all due respect I doubt anyone on this board gives a fu*k about the 1987 Fleer Barry Bonds card. This is a vintage board. Now if you want to talk about Tommy Bond, that's a different story.

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Posted By: david

obviously the tittle and concept of this board seems to be alluding you. this board is dedicated to VINTAGE preWAR cards. for those of us who read this board we could care less what a psa or BGS 9 1987 barry bonds is selling for. also, the members of this board have seen enough reprint cracker jacks and impossible front back combinations of t206's in beckett holders that we do not take them seriously as a grader of vintage cards.

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Posted By: Julie

I don't collect graded cards, but even those of us who don't have occasionally had to buy one to get what he/she wants (it's silly to say, however, that there are no more ungraded cards in great shape, from any year; my 19th century collection, which isn't huge, is full of them). Given this fact, I have been least often (once) disappointed by GAI; Beckett is chiefly memorable because I have to use a vise-grip plyers to get the card out of the holder, breaking it off all around, which is very damgerous to self, card, and paintings and photos on the wall.

Recently bought a '87 Fleer Bonds, ungraded.

[Archive]

Posted By: (www.bestbaseballcards.com)

Again, I agree that beckett really hasn't stole a lot of market share on vintage, but again, neither should anyone, since most "gradeable" cards have already been graded....unless, casings are being broken and resubmitted. I intend to do so to make a point. I am the one with no bias. I am only biased towards beckett because, if the same card is given to PSA, BVG, and GAI, BVG will get the lowest grade.

I will bring up some actual and statistical "VINTAGE EXAMPLES" soon...

You suggest that I am just trying to create some positive publicity for BECKETT. Again, I am a small time collector with no "ties" to anyone, so can comfortably say that any statements I make are unbiased....can you do the same? It appears that some individuals are objective and listening and emailing me in private congratulating me, where there are a few that do not want to "debate" but merely "shut down". One has to wonder what some "influences" are.

I am all for getting everything out on the table in front of us.

Does anyone "deny" that Beckett is the most strict? I am not arguing market share...as I believe dealers have their own objectives ($$$$). Put a BVG 9 1957 Willie Mays (just sold on ebay), next to a GAI 9, and tell me which looks nicest? Or better yet, take a GAI 9 $3000 card and send it to beckett and see what it comes back? I would like to see these similar tests done by some collectors on a moderate scale...not by some "biased dealers".

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Posted By: runscott

I need to talk, man! I have a Topps SGC-graded 1987 Bonds, and it is labeled "rookie". What's up with that? Especially given that Bonds is also in the 1986 Topps Traded update set? Was this an SGC faux pas?

Okay, that got it out of my system - no more need to discuss new stuff.

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Posted By: Marc S.

Though this forum often talks about vintage baseball cards. Though we often talk about the differences/pros/cons/aggravations with grading companies, we do it in the context of pre-war baseball cards. Please let us restrict our discussions to that. Otherwise, you can talk on other boards with other focuses.

As to your point:
"1. Beckett doesn't have many graded "VINTAGE" because, for the most part, most vintage that are "gradable" have already been graded. Most of the premium cards have already been graded by psa or sgc. "

That is simply not true. PSA, SGC and GAI are constantly grading vintage specimens. Were it not true -- where the heck did GAI find so many vintage cards to grade in the last 18 months? But there is a ton of high-quality raw vintage material out there. The bottom line is that it seems that most vintage, pre-war collectors are more savvy than modern collectors and better able to judge authenticity/grade without the help of a third-party grading company. Most pre-WWI cards have a "value" in any grade greater than 2 or 3 -- and there is much of that material to be found on Ebay and a variety of other auctions and venues, available raw.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

Mike: Your p****** into the wind - you would need to show me a Beckett graded Ramly or E card for me to even consider your supposition. I have never seen one and have had thousands of PSA's hundreds of SGC's and scores of GAI's.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

As stated earlier this is a Vintage Sportscard collector board. I receive inserts as stiffeners in shipping and ship vice versa.

As far as there not being any cards out there to be graded you are very wrong. There are probably more collectors out there that do not using grading services than that do. I would be surprised that even 1% of the vintage stuff is graded.

As far as Beckett is concerned, they may be fine in the new stuff which would be great if they could take a chunk of the market share from PSA, so people can get a wakeup call about them. But as pointed out earlier they are almost zero facor in the vintage market.

Your first post asked for a forum on new stuff, other than the CU board I personally know of no other. If you want to discuss pre WWII cards or question please continue to post if not please move on. The CU board would love your input about Beckett grading.

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Posted By: MW

<< Think about it...for the most part, vintage cards have already been graded. >>

This is one of the biggest hobby fallacies. In fact, the opposite is true. In my estimation, less than 5% of all vintage cards have been graded.

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Posted By: Brian H.

This only addresses Beckett's grading of vintage cards (ie Cards created prior to WWII). My limited experience is that Becketts first attempts to grade these cards adhered a bit too closely to its standards for more recent cards and were usually undergraded relative to PSA, SGC and GAI. However, when Beckett introduced BVG as a separate line for early cards (this includes 1950s and 60's cards) it began to administer an easier standard than PSA, SGC, GAI.

For example I at one point had a BVG T202 with Walter Johnson graded 6.5 by BVG. I tried to cross it over to both SGC and PSA neither would cross it to a 6 and in fact SGC identified a surface wrinkle on the card.

I don't doubt that BVG does as good (or better)than PSA, SGC and GAI with more recent cards from the 80's to the present.

I also don't really card (nor do most of the collectors who frequent this site).

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Main problem you've got here is that Beckett has zero rep and zero acclaim in the vintage arena. If anything, their idiotic BVG scam bas completely blown any future cred that they might seek to develop. Also, their cards look SH!**Y in the plastic sleeve inside the plastic holder. Put one next to an SGC or GAI card and there is simply no presentation comparison.

Barry Bonds is a great player who cannot be ignored. His cards are a waste of time. The principal difference between you modern "collectors" and the vintage collectors on this board is that we buy the card, you buy the slab. I mean, come on, is there any real difference between a 9 and and 10? Not so as anyone who isn't selling the 10 would notice. You cannot analogize Barry Bonds cards to Pre WWII cards. As far as "potential" for his cards go, I see nothing but foolishness in assessing the "potential" of his cards. Like a game of musical chairs, whoever has the 10 when the music stops is gonna get screwed. Do yourself and your family a favor, buy a nice 8 of his cards instead of a 10 and put the extra $$ into some solid vintage cards that will actually hold their value.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

I think MW is exactly correct. I can't speak to all vintage cards but amongst what I believe are the ten largest Old Judge collections in the world I would say the percentage of slabbed cards is less than 1%.

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Posted By: (www.bestbaseballcards.com)

And those that spend big bucks without buying the slab are fools, and deserve to get trimmed or counterfeit cards. I don't even look at "ungraded" vintage cards on ebay for sale, and it should be obvious in the dollar amount that they bring in, there are many that share the same opinion.

http://www.bestbaseballcards.com

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Posted By: (www.bestbaseballcards.com)

Is there a difference between a 9 and a 10?? Buy an 8???
----------------------------------------------------
RIDICULOUS
----------------------------------------------------
Most millionaires won't even own a 9, unless a 10 is unavailable. And to the millionaires of the world, money isn't a big issue, especially when there may be 10 9's and 1000 8's.
-----------------------------------------------------
Ask yourself if there is a difference between a psa 3 babe ruth card and a BVG 4 Babe Ruth....only about twice the price or $1500.
-----------------------------------------------------
Check your statistics, and then answer me this question....

How much did a psa 9 Pete Rose rookie sell for 20 years ago? How much did a psa 8 Pete Rose rookie sell for 20 years ago? How about today??
-----------------------------------------------------
It is obvious to me by your statement, you are in it simply for the hobby, not for the investment, which is fine, but no thanks for me....I will buy the best grade card I can afford.
-----------------------------------------------------


http://www.bestbaseballcards.com

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

we're all arguing a lot of differing arguments based on things that really don't match up.

Anyone who follows the card market would be hard pressed to ignore the fact that a BGS9.5 in a post-1980 card will bring significantly more than a PSA10 card of the same type.

However, for the arguments that most of this board's members are making with Mike, there really isn't any way to compare and Jay Miller said it best--BGS/BVG just isn't really even a player in the pre-war market to make comparisons. How many Old Judges have you seen in a BVG/BGS holder?

90% of OJ's are in SGC or PSA holders with the remainder hanging out in GAI holders probably. BGS/BVG hasn't graded the massive quantities of T206's, 33 Goudey's, Cracker Jacks (legitimate ones), or any other of the mainstream pre-war sets to even really make a legitimate distinction between the grading companies.

To compare BGS or SGC on new cards isn't a good comparison either because SGC just isn't a huge player in the 1987 Fleer Bonds card. Just the way it is. Each of the grading companies have their own 'niche' for now and there is some cross-over for each of them.

I have to wonder just how much conflict of interest there is in the whole PSA and BGS 'families' of intertwined companies to, in some cases, even feel comfortable with them. At least with SGC and GAI there is no OVERT relationships to auction houses (yet), retaillers and other methods of moving product. While I'm not accusing anyone of anything (someone else can do that), it certainly is disconcerting a little (to me).

As for millionaires wanting 9's and 10's, I think anyone who bought those Tiger Woods cards when the first 10's came out or the A-Rod SP foils or the Jordan Rookies in 10's and paid 20K+ might re-think their 'investments' about now.

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Posted By: MW

<< And those that spend big bucks without buying the slab are fools, and deserve to get trimmed or counterfeit cards. >>

I absolutely disagree with this statement. No one deserves to get trimmed or counterfeit cards, graded or ungraded. Moreover, speaking from personal experience, I feel much more comfortable spending "big bucks" on raw cards if I can examine them in person compared to buying a similar card in a certain company's slab on eBay. And I'm sure there are many vintage collectors who feel the same way. When it comes to the proper application of knowledge on vintage issues, several major grading companies come up far short of what should be considered a minimum hobby standard.


<< At least with SGC and GAI there is no OVERT relationships to auction houses (yet), retaillers and other methods of moving product. While I'm not accusing anyone of anything (someone else can do that), it certainly is disconcerting a little (to me). >>

Well said. I am in complete agreement as I see this as one of the hobby's biggest problems. The larger the conflict of interest between 3rd party grading companies and major auction houses, the greater the disservice to honest collectors.

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Posted By: Anonymous

You wrote:

>Check your statistics, and then answer me this question....

>How much did a psa 9 Pete Rose rookie sell for 20 years ago? How much did a psa 8 >Pete Rose rookie sell for 20 years ago? How about today??

PSA9 Rose rookie $0
PSA8 Rose rookie $0

PSA didn't even exist 20 years ago

Jay

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<Most millionaires won't even own a 9, unless a 10 is unavailable. And to the millionaires of the world, money isn't a big issue, especially when there may be 10 9's and 1000 8's. >>

I know more than one millionaire in the hobby that specifically make a point of avoiding anything over PSA 8, unless it comes from their personal raw submissions.

I know quite a few extremely rich hobbyists that have numerous cards below PSA 8. For many pre-war issues -- owning an example of a card is something extraordinary -- owning a high-grade example is almost unheard of. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of pre-war cards that simply do not exist unaltered in high-grade. They are nonetheless very valuable and much sought-after.

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Posted By: (www.bestbaseballcards.com)

Perhaps my statement that people that buy ungraded cards are fools was a little strong. I agree, no one deserves to get trimmed or counterfeit cards, but when it is well known that there are MANY counterfeits/reprints out there, that if you are not well aware of what the common counterfeits are, and know exactly what to look for, that before you invest your hard-earned money, that you should realize that with today's modern technology, and the amount of crooks out there, you may be better off buying cards by a reputable grading company.



http://www.bestbaseballcards.com

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Posted By: (www.bestbaseballcards.com)

I was responding to the individual that was talking about modern era cards. He was suggesting to buy a psa 8 bonds over a 9 or 10....that was ridiculous and obviously "OLD SCHOOL". I understand it is a different story for "pre-war" and many vintage cards....but I believe the rule should always be the same...get the highest grade you can afford within your budget.

http://www.bestbaseballcards.com

[Archive]

Posted By: (www.bestbaseballcards.com)

PSA9 Rose rookie $0
PSA8 Rose rookie $0

PSA didn't even exist 20 years ago

Jay
----------------------
Ok..you got me...but since you have the facts, how about 10 years ago...

BTW, that is interesting...I didn't know that psa didn't exist 20 years ago.

http://www.bestbaseballcards.com

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Posted By: (www.bestbaseballcards.com)

I agree...I wasn't aware that this was a "pre-war" only forum. My comments were based on marketing statistics I have gathered on ebay for HOF'ers past to present, with absolutely no interest in pre-war cards.

Before I do leave this forum though, I would recommend exercising a little caution in pricing/grading of ANY "newly established" grading company, especially if there are obvious ties to "large dealers"...you rub my back, I will rub yours....

Also, remember about the fact that the FBI has recently convicted a large dealer of opening up PSA casings and inserting inferior cards....

Changes are happening for reasons...just trying to get to the bottom of things....

GOOD LUCK AND ENJOY!



http://www.bestbaseballcards.com

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Posted By: MW

<< I was responding to the individual that was talking about modern era cards. He was suggesting to buy a psa 8 bonds over a 9 or 10....that was ridiculous and obviously "OLD SCHOOL". >>

Old School? I'd call it common sense. Is paying 10, 20 or even 100 times the NM/MT price for a subjectively graded "Gem Mint" example of a modern card -- an issue for which there still exists enumerable unopened wax boxes and factory sets -- consistent with common standards governing proper judgment or wise investments? I think not.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

If baseball teams followed that approach for each position they would have trouble fielding a full team. What you collect or hope to collect need to be divided into your budget and maybe you will find that you need to collect an E card set in grade 4 not 8 as was in a recent SCP auction. In grade 4 you can collect a nice set for 20% or less than grade 8, which you probably won't be able to find anyway. Not many of us have unlimited budgets and most of us have many cards that we are seeking.

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Posted By: OldOriole

I think we've learned four things from this:

1) We, as a forum, welcome any different perspectives and respect other's opinions, no matter how flawed they are.

2) Beckett has not cracked the vintage market, and comparing this to modern cards is like apples vs. oranges.

3) There are plenty, PLENTY of vintage cards to be graded (I'e sent in over 500 myself in the last two months). Anyone who says differently simply does not no the vintage card market at all.

4) Happy job hunting Mike, good luck with the '87 Bonds cards. If you're happy, that's what matters. However, realize you found not a single supporter for your statements. You like calculating, so try this: What are the odds that so many collectors, with years of experience, could all be wrong and you are the only one who is correct?

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Posted By: runscott

Mike is a "card tard". Seriously, he admittedly knows nothing about vintage cards, has no respect for the opinions of those who do, and reacts very defensively to people who are trying to help him. I am simply amazed that so many of you have the patience to respond to his inane posts. And sending him to the CU Forum is cruel....to the CU people.