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  #151  
Old 08-13-2022, 09:27 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
That is exactly why ERA is a better judge of a pitchers effectiveness. Thanks for proving yourself wrong.
Right not sure why cares about unearned runs, except some unearned runs are worth more than others..if your team should of gotten the third out after getting the first 2 men out..giving up 7 straight hits and all the runs unearned seems silly or at least getting the 'L" shouldnt be silly when you lost the game 7-2 because of all the hits. Stats arent perfect

I also think betting odds are very important as it factors into your teams total ability, if you start 10 games and your team was +180 in every start and another pitcher was -300 and the underdog pitcher's team only lost 1 more game due to large part because of their starting pitching, that underdog pitcher would rate higher to me even if 'lost' one more game.

Sort of like in foootball if a NFL team in a 17 game season was an UNDERDOG every single game and only won 3 games but covered the spread the other 14 times how can that coach get fired.. talk is cheap, put money where your mouth is..

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-13-2022 at 09:28 AM.
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  #152  
Old 08-13-2022, 12:32 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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I just love stupid comments like this saying absolutely nothing to prove anything.

"That is exactly why ERA is a better judge of pitcher effectiveness. Thanks for proving yourself wrong."

Exactly WTF does "that" mean. Once again, no evidence, logic, facts, proof, etc., and nothing to even show exactly what statements or comments they are supposedly referencing to or disagreeing with. And what exactly was it that was proven wrong? Just another typical, "I'm right, and you're wrong." argument by those that prove or say absolutely nothing.

Last edited by BobC; 08-13-2022 at 12:34 PM.
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  #153  
Old 08-13-2022, 02:02 PM
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ERA and ERA+ aren't necessarily good judges either. Jim Palmer led the AL in ERA in 1973 and beat out Nolan Ryan for the Cy Young by 16 points. His ERA was an AL best 2.49, Ryan's 2.87. Ryan set a MLB record with 383 Ks, Palmer struck out 158, 225 less than Ryan. That was 225 balls hit in play that his fielders turned into outs. The Orioles had the #1 defense in MLB, the Angels had one of the worst. The left side of the Orioles defense had 2 of the 5 greatest defensive players of all time. In CF a 8 time GG winner. At 2B a 4 time GG winner. Ryan had a FIP of 2.49, Palmer 3.38. Ryan even had a bWAR of 7.7 to Palmer's 6.3. Bert Blyleven also had a stronger case for best pitcher than the ERA leader.

Wins is an important stat. So is quality starts. The same for ERA, ERA+, GS, CG, IP, SHO, FIP, WHIP, K, K/9, K/W and even fWAR and bWAR in the context of all stats. There isn't one stat that is better or the best because taken out of context, it doesn't tell us enough.

Very good illustration. I'm sure that Ryan had the mentality that he had to go for the strikeout, because he didn't have 'the Three B's behind him. Palmer had all the advantages.

I miss pitchers going deeper into games, but, because they no longer do, aces like Scherzer can toss a gem, only to get a ND or L.


Clearly Wins as an mark of the best starting pitchers has gone by the way-side. Felix Hernandez got his CY with a 13-12 season and DeGrom won his with 10 and 11 wins.

These changes in the way the Game is played have made all the additional statistics viable and necessary.


However, for an old-school guy like myself, they give me headaches like the exit velocities of ground-balls that get through the infield.

Launch Angle, Barrel Pct.; Spin Rate,

Think I'll go play some PONG and read a good book.
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  #154  
Old 08-13-2022, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BobC View Post
I just love stupid comments like this saying absolutely nothing to prove anything.

"That is exactly why ERA is a better judge of pitcher effectiveness. Thanks for proving yourself wrong."

Exactly WTF does "that" mean. Once again, no evidence, logic, facts, proof, etc., and nothing to even show exactly what statements or comments they are supposedly referencing to or disagreeing with. And what exactly was it that was proven wrong? Just another typical, "I'm right, and you're wrong." argument by those that prove or say absolutely nothing.
Bob, the sad part is you believe your incoherent ramblings to be actual arguments stating facts. If you read my post about 1988 and Joe Magrane and David Cone, you would see what I am talking about.

You talk about wins defining a pitchers effectiveness, then you talk about unearned runs?

You get defensive when people disagree with you. You ignore when others present evidence, then claim that they never presented evidence in the first place. Then you play the victim?
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  #155  
Old 08-13-2022, 02:26 PM
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Bob, the sad part is you believe your incoherent ramblings to be actual arguments stating facts. If you read my post about 1988 and Joe Magrane and David Cone, you would see what I am talking about.

You talk about wins defining a pitchers effectiveness, then you talk about unearned runs?

You get defensive when people disagree with you. You ignore when others present evidence, then claim that they never presented evidence in the first place. Then you play the victim?
It's a much more pleasant place with his ramblings on your blocklist.
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  #156  
Old 08-13-2022, 05:30 PM
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Bob, the sad part is you believe your incoherent ramblings to be actual arguments stating facts. If you read my post about 1988 and Joe Magrane and David Cone, you would see what I am talking about.

You talk about wins defining a pitchers effectiveness, then you talk about unearned runs?

You get defensive when people disagree with you. You ignore when others present evidence, then claim that they never presented evidence in the first place. Then you play the victim?


Gee-why does that sound so very familiar?



By the way, does anyone agree with me when I think unearned runs created by the pitcher's fielding errors should be listed as earned runs? Wouldn't that add more credence to saying how important the ERA stats is?


.
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  #157  
Old 08-13-2022, 06:16 PM
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By the way, does anyone agree with me when I think unearned runs created by the pitcher's fielding errors should be listed as earned runs? Wouldn't that add more credence to saying how important the ERA stats is?


.
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  #158  
Old 08-13-2022, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
ERA and ERA+ aren't necessarily good judges either. Jim Palmer led the AL in ERA in 1973 and beat out Nolan Ryan for the Cy Young by 16 points. His ERA was an AL best 2.49, Ryan's 2.87. Ryan set a MLB record with 383 Ks, Palmer struck out 158, 225 less than Ryan. That was 225 balls hit in play that his fielders turned into outs. The Orioles had the #1 defense in MLB, the Angels had one of the worst. The left side of the Orioles defense had 2 of the 5 greatest defensive players of all time. In CF a 8 time GG winner. At 2B a 4 time GG winner. Ryan had a FIP of 2.49, Palmer 3.38. Ryan even had a bWAR of 7.7 to Palmer's 6.3. Bert Blyleven also had a stronger case for best pitcher than the ERA leader.

Wins is an important stat. So is quality starts. The same for ERA, ERA+, GS, CG, IP, SHO, FIP, WHIP, K, K/9, K/W and even fWAR and bWAR in the context of all stats. There isn't one stat that is better or the best because taken out of context, it doesn't tell us enough.
Who else is in your top 5 with Brooks and Belanger?
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  #159  
Old 08-15-2022, 08:57 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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https://www.mlb.com/gameday/twins-vs...ox,game=661808


Give it up for Mr. Bundy! Pitched 5 innings...didnt appear in the 6th...yet his team scored a run so his 5 innnings and 4 earned gave him the W.

glad to see his team gets 6 innings of at bats, but the home pitcher would of only had 5 innings of at bats had he pitched 5 innings......
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  #160  
Old 08-15-2022, 09:06 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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What I'm saying is that he finished games and got saves but he was clearly not solely a closer. I can't tell how many innings he would pitch or when looking at Baseball Reference but the SABR article illustrates he was not very good at getting saves when he had the opportunity. It seems like he was much better in other capacities, which is what I'm trying to point out. I don't think he won the Cy Young that year because he led the league in saves.

I think he won the Cy Young because of his volume usage, which is not something you associate with closers and you will never see a closer throw 200 innings or appear in 100 plus games. You WILL see a middle relief pitcher appear in a huge number of games and throw a large amount of innings.
right i have also argued that 1 inning closers dont below in the HOF except maybe rivera...there are tons of SPs that could of closed ....why does a closer get to the HOF with 1/7th of the pitching a starter gets..


i dont see career pitch hitters go into the HOF even though best at what they do for the position.
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  #161  
Old 08-15-2022, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector View Post
https://www.mlb.com/gameday/twins-vs...ox,game=661808


Give it up for Mr. Bundy! Pitched 5 innings...didnt appear in the 6th...yet his team scored a run so his 5 innnings and 4 earned gave him the W.

glad to see his team gets 6 innings of at bats, but the home pitcher would of only had 5 innings of at bats had he pitched 5 innings......

Why would this not be the natural order of things? The visiting pitcher doesn't have to pitch the bottom half of the 9th if their team is losing after the top half either. You could make the same argument that the home team should be able to have a chance to pad their stats and get guys some more hits or home runs, etc.

The game is over after the top half of the 9th if the home team is winning because it wouldn't make sense for them to bat. It's not an advantage. It's practical.

Last edited by packs; 08-15-2022 at 09:47 AM.
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  #162  
Old 08-15-2022, 01:07 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Why would this not be the natural order of things? The visiting pitcher doesn't have to pitch the bottom half of the 9th if their team is losing after the top half either. You could make the same argument that the home team should be able to have a chance to pad their stats and get guys some more hits or home runs, etc.

The game is over after the top half of the 9th if the home team is winning because it wouldn't make sense for them to bat. It's not an advantage. It's practical.

right but batters not hitting in the 9th is 1/9th of the total hitting.. plus only 3-5 hitters will get a chance to hit lose their chance , not all of them and if their team won then its likely the best hitters already had a good offensive day


pitchers who dont have to pitch in the 6th is impacting it at 1/6th which is a huge difference., plus zero need to hit in the bottom of 9th when up but always a need for pitching in the 6th so its not apples to apples...


it can be practical not to credit the pitcher with the Win as well ... he gets 6 offensive innings and the home pitcher only gets 5 innings...that a huge difference....afterall this thread talks a lot about how many 'wins' for HOF consideration


Also people were arguing with me on this issue not thinking you get a W in that situation because to them it was not believable as opposed to not being practical

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-15-2022 at 01:11 PM.
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  #163  
Old 08-15-2022, 01:39 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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I have made a few expressions that are used on the board like waterside property cards



Now if a Visting Pitcher gets a W due to his team only because his team got 1 more inning to hit versus the home pitcher.i am now calling those Ws, practical Wins.




So Mr. Bundy in this received received a practical W, i wonder who leads the league in practical wins, baseball reference needs get on this ASAP


https://www.mlb.com/gameday/twins-vs...ox,game=661808

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-15-2022 at 01:40 PM.
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  #164  
Old 08-15-2022, 05:34 PM
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right i have also argued that 1 inning closers dont below in the HOF except maybe rivera...there are tons of SPs that could of closed ....why does a closer get to the HOF with 1/7th of the pitching a starter gets..


i dont see career pitch hitters go into the HOF even though best at what they do for the position.
People make this argument, but if a successful closer is just a failed starter, why doesn't EVERY team have a top of the line closer?

Guys who can do the job and do it for an extended period of time are actually pretty rare. Rivera, Hoffman, Wagner, etc.

It's kind of like people who argue against DH's being in the Hall of Fame. The DH has been around longer than I have, and I'm not exactly young. Even closers...if you think about the original "firemen" like Gossage and Fingers, you're talking primes in the late 70's/early 80's 40+ years ago. Even when you started to see more "one-inning" closers was 30+ years ago.

The game evolves...if we're only going to put 300 game winners in the Hall, we're done putting in pitchers. Just like if you're going to put every 400 HR hitter in there, ya gonna have to build a new wing to the hall.
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  #165  
Old 08-15-2022, 09:18 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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People make this argument, but if a successful closer is just a failed starter, why doesn't EVERY team have a top of the line closer?

Guys who can do the job and do it for an extended period of time are actually pretty rare. Rivera, Hoffman, Wagner, etc.

It's kind of like people who argue against DH's being in the Hall of Fame. The DH has been around longer than I have, and I'm not exactly young. Even closers...if you think about the original "firemen" like Gossage and Fingers, you're talking primes in the late 70's/early 80's 40+ years ago. Even when you started to see more "one-inning" closers was 30+ years ago.

The game evolves...if we're only going to put 300 game winners in the Hall, we're done putting in pitchers. Just like if you're going to put every 400 HR hitter in there, ya gonna have to build a new wing to the hall.
Smoltz would of been an HOF closer , but how many closers would be HOF starting pitchers and at what ratio

There are a TON of number 2 pitchers on teams that would be all star closers.

many closers only have 2 pitches..its real hard to go through a lineup 3 times with that stuff even if both pitches are great..
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  #166  
Old 08-16-2022, 08:23 AM
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Most teams have a hard time finding reliable closers so if there was some number 2 starter on the team who could finish games with their eyes closed, they would be.

Last edited by packs; 08-16-2022 at 11:48 AM.
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  #167  
Old 08-16-2022, 12:15 PM
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Most teams have a hard time finding reliable closers so if there was some number 2 starter on the team who could finish games with their eyes closed, they would be.
I disagree. A #2 starter (or any quality starter) is more valuable than the best reliever. If a pitcher can give me 200 quality innings over the course of a season how is the guy who gives me 60 such innings more valuable? Runs don't care when they're scored. Your closer doesn't do you much good if you never have the lead!
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  #168  
Old 08-16-2022, 01:09 PM
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Most teams have a hard time finding reliable closers so if there was some number 2 starter on the team who could finish games with their eyes closed, they would be.
disagree, you need a number 2 starter to win playoff series ....no team would take a solid number 2 starter and make them in a closer...now if the closer could be a number 2 pitcher they would convert them..im sure if you look at the salaries and value of money that will show you as well.. i have seen washed up starting pitchers ie. Jose Mesa et al. who become decent closers but never seen a washed up closer become a number 2 starter for a number of years or at least much much much more rare...

remember lots of number 2 starters go to the HOF or are at least argued...i would say andy petitte would be a number 2 starter for instance..

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-16-2022 at 01:11 PM.
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  #169  
Old 08-16-2022, 01:32 PM
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I'm not saying the number 2 should close, I'm questioning whether he could.
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  #170  
Old 08-16-2022, 01:56 PM
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I'm not saying the number 2 should close, I'm questioning whether he could.
of course they could...not many failed closers are number 2 starters versus failed number 3-5 pitchers leading their team in saves for a year or so or more


Look at Tom Gordon, when he tailed off he became a closer... It can be argued Mariano Rivera was a failed Starter.

Wilie Hernandez failed starter....

i dont see Eric Gagne lighting it up as a starting pitcher....

in fact usually when you fail a closer you could fund yourself without any job......you always hear about bad closers giving up tons of runs in non save situations but squeak by on save situations..so when the saves stop coming sometimes they out of league in a year or so....if fail as a starter you can always be a reliever even if not a closer..


Its not like kimbrel will becaome a starter if he loses his closer job, its more likely he out of the league in a few years if that happens for example...

if walker bueler comes back next year, i bet he would be a better closer than half the closers out there if dodgers decide to switch him

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-16-2022 at 02:05 PM.
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  #171  
Old 08-16-2022, 02:06 PM
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I think you're discounting what closers do and how difficult it is to be an elite closer for a long period of time. There are very few closers with any kind of longevity.

I don't support what you're saying about failed starters either. So what if a guy started out as one thing in pro ball and became another? Why is that discounted? What are you looking to take away? Mariano Rivera was a shortstop when he got signed. Jorge Posada was a second baseman when he started his career in the minors.

Last edited by packs; 08-16-2022 at 02:15 PM.
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  #172  
Old 08-16-2022, 03:59 PM
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Yes, two different positions, with two different skill sets.

Nobody says "most shortstops could play second base, so there shouldn't be any second basemen in the hall of fame."

Or maybe they do, but those people are probably kinda nuts.
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  #173  
Old 08-16-2022, 07:40 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Yes, two different positions, with two different skill sets.

Nobody says "most shortstops could play second base, so there shouldn't be any second basemen in the hall of fame."

Or maybe they do, but those people are probably kinda nuts.
well like the NBA with Center/Forward , players are starting to play multiple postions more in the MLB

but closer and starting pitcher is not the same as 2nd and SS. Plus defense really isnt factored into it unless the player is on the extreme extreme end good or bad, if they hit 600 home runs i dont think defense matters at all etc.
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  #174  
Old 08-16-2022, 07:45 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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I think you're discounting what closers do and how difficult it is to be an elite closer for a long period of time. There are very few closers with any kind of longevity.

I don't support what you're saying about failed starters either. So what if a guy started out as one thing in pro ball and became another? Why is that discounted? What are you looking to take away? Mariano Rivera was a shortstop when he got signed. Jorge Posada was a second baseman when he started his career in the minors.
you keep moving the goal posts....we are talking about pitching..yeah all great players that were pitching in the major leagues may of been hitters at one time as they were elite athletes growing up..so waht.. Heck there is a DH now so its just about pitching and dont need to bring up the fact about them being hitters.

So show me all of these guys that used to close that are now good Starting pitchers ..i can name you a LOT of good closers that were failed starters.......yeah may be hard for pitchers who werent good enough to start to fulfill a job as closer and those are hard to find.....agree its hard to find a closer from that pool of talent.....i argue its not that hard to find a closer from the 25th-40th best Starting pitcher in mlb..which i would assume is about a 2nd starter on most teams...

Can probably run down the list of number 2 starters and the closer on their team and given a choice of closer, we would rather have the SP be the closer ...Pablo Lopez would be better than whoever the marlins use to close for example.....

you also forget a starting pitcher who may have to hold back some velocity and some pitches for the 2nd and 3rd time through the lineup doesnt have to worry about that when pitching 1 inning.......2 and 3 run leads are still 'saves', it doesnt matter how much a team is up, a starting pitcher still needs great stats to be considered an all star....Wins arent enough as has been discussed at length..

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-16-2022 at 07:51 PM.
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  #175  
Old 08-26-2022, 07:52 AM
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DeGrom has 2 BB in his first 5 starts back and 46 strikeouts.

Mets taking it easy with 6 inning starts. Fine with me. Let him go nine in the World Series.
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  #176  
Old 08-26-2022, 08:20 AM
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DeGrom has 2 BB in his first 5 starts back and 46 strikeouts.

Mets taking it easy with 6 inning starts. Fine with me. Let him go nine in the World Series.
He is amazing and they are smart for ramping him up to ensure he stays healthy for the WS run. Him and Scherzer make the METS dangerous in the playoffs him they are both healthy against any team
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  #177  
Old 08-26-2022, 03:43 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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He is amazing and they are smart for ramping him up to ensure he stays healthy for the WS run. Him and Scherzer make the METS dangerous in the playoffs him they are both healthy against any team
i think he would be HOF closer and could pitch 1/6 of the innings as he would have as a starting pitcher and extend career by years to get the good totals for HOF that he likely wont get as a SP

im sure the current Mets closer who is an all star and likely top 1 or 2 closer this year would be able to match Degrom's Starting pitching stats since closing is as hard as starting pitching

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-26-2022 at 03:44 PM.
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  #178  
Old 08-26-2022, 04:00 PM
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Is it harder to be tall or fast?
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  #179  
Old 08-28-2022, 10:55 AM
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46 K, 2 -- yeah, 2 -- BB so far.
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  #180  
Old 08-31-2022, 07:29 PM
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Make that 55K, 3 BB. LOL.
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  #181  
Old 08-31-2022, 08:11 PM
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Make that 55K, 3 BB. LOL.
When healthy hard to argue anyone is better.
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  #182  
Old 09-01-2022, 06:28 AM
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Make that 55K, 3 BB. LOL.
Simply amazing and again no run support but he gets the win

His stat line is looking amazing and each game he does this his contract money keeps going up

If he stays healthy they will be tough in playoffs
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Last edited by mrreality68; 09-01-2022 at 06:29 AM.
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  #183  
Old 09-08-2022, 07:26 AM
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After last night's game vs. the Pirates, deGrom's WHIP (walks and hits per innings pitchted) is .55, which equals his total for last year.

I realize both years were shortened because of injury, but the best WHIP ever for a full season was Pedro Martinez in 2000, when his WHIP was .7373

So deGrom's WHIP this year and last year is 25% lower than the best WHIP ever for a full season.

Note that #2 on baseball reference's list is of best single season WHIP years is Kent Maeda with a WHIP of .75 in 2000 when he only pitched 66 innings.
deGrom pitched 92 innings last year when his WHIP was only .55, so I am not sure why that isn't showing up as #1 on the all-time list.
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  #184  
Old 09-08-2022, 11:26 AM
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After last night's game vs. the Pirates, deGrom's WHIP (walks and hits per innings pitchted) is .55, which equals his total for last year.

I realize both years were shortened because of injury, but the best WHIP ever for a full season was Pedro Martinez in 2000, when his WHIP was .7373

So deGrom's WHIP this year and last year is 25% lower than the best WHIP ever for a full season.

Note that #2 on baseball reference's list is of best single season WHIP years is Kent Maeda with a WHIP of .75 in 2000 when he only pitched 66 innings.
deGrom pitched 92 innings last year when his WHIP was only .55, so I am not sure why that isn't showing up as #1 on the all-time list.
2020 is different because of the shortened season. I believe you need 1 inning pitched for every game of the season, so 162 in a regular season and 60 in 2020.
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  #185  
Old 09-08-2022, 11:37 AM
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2020 is different because of the shortened season. I believe you need 1 inning pitched for every game of the season, so 162 in a regular season and 60 in 2020.
That makes sense. Thanks
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  #186  
Old 09-11-2022, 01:44 PM
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make that 55k, 3 bb. Lol.
63k, 4 bb. 0.55 WHIP.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-11-2022 at 01:45 PM.
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  #187  
Old 09-11-2022, 07:04 PM
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63k, 4 bb. 0.55 WHIP.
When healthy simply amazing
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  #188  
Old 09-13-2022, 07:12 PM
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Nugget from tonight's broadcast: deGrom now has 39 consecutive starts allowing 3 runs or less.

This ties Jim Scott's record from 118 years ago.

Last edited by cgjackson222; 09-13-2022 at 07:13 PM.
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  #189  
Old 09-13-2022, 07:26 PM
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73K, 4 bb. LOL Unimaginable.
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  #190  
Old 09-14-2022, 11:00 AM
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73K, 4 bb. LOL Unimaginable.
Agreed he has been simply amazing

Now if the Mets can hit and if he stays healthy they will be a dangerous team
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  #191  
Old 09-20-2022, 01:11 PM
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86 k, 4 bb.
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