The BCCG problem

[RobertGT]

I thought by now that most collectors had figured out that a BCCG 8 is not the same thing as a PSA 8 or even SGC 84, but apparently that is not the case. Still seeing way too many examples of novice collectors paying NMMT prices for EX cards due to the obviously inflated numerical grades assigned by Beckett.

Don't mean to belabor the problem, but just posted a new eBay guide that hopefully someone will find useful down the road.

http://reviews.ebay.com/The-BCCG-car...00000175139486

[vintagetoppsguy]

I disagree. I'm not sure what you mean by "inflated numerical grades." There is no universal grading system, so TPGs can use whatever system (numbering) that they want. It's up to the buyer to do their homework. The grade and a description of the grade is right there on the BCCG flip.

If I want to start my own TPG service and use alpha letters rather than numbers, isn't that my choice as long as a description of the grade is on the flip?

I just don't see how it's deceitful. It's a matter of uninformed people not knowing what they're buying. I think your guide is great and hopefully will educate people, but people should buy the card, not the flip.

[HRBAKER]

I disagree. I think it was a system devised/developed for primary use by TV sellers to allow them to tie in and take advantage of the grading phenomenon and hype and oversell their wares to typically under-aware and non savvy purchasers.

I do agree it's on the buyer at the end of the day, the under educated are typically always taken advantage of. This particular vehicle I think gives them (Sellers) - whether intentional or not - a tool to do so.

And you are right - there is no universal grading system. It's a mere coincidence that all others (generally accepted) use "8" as NRMT.

At the end of the day it's a matter of who your audience is, most collectors know these cards and flips for what they are and you can't blame a company for finding new ways and places to sell their services.

[mintacular]

I strongly AGREE with the original poster...BCCG adds confusion to the marketplace for newer/novice collectors...Their 5-10 scale makes no sense whatsover and most newbies could logically assume that there would be lower grades from 1-4....All of their grades are "NM or Better, Excellent or Better": Well, those graders should s*** or get off the pot, a grading service is supposed to make a definitive judgement. BCCG is a money-making fraud/scheme and Beckett should not offer such a piss-poor service. But since Beckett is actually a junk operation today it is way too late to save their once good name

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by mintacular

BCCG adds confusion to the marketplace for newer/novice collectors

Pat, just the opposite is true. Nobody has added more confustion to the marketplace than PSA. Go look at the very first issue of Beckett. It came out years before PSA was ever in business. In that magazine, there is a 5 point grading scale with a definition for each grade - Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent and Mint.

Notice you don't see Poor, VG/EX, EX/MT, NM, NM-MT, etc. There were only 5 grades and the system worked. Then came PSA and they told us we've been doing it wrong and that there were 10 grades. BULL$HIT!

I can't say for sure Beckett was the first to define the grading scale, but it's the first time I've ever seen it in print. So, if they defined the grading scale, years before PSA (or any other TPG) shouldn't they have the right to change it? Absolutley! It's THEIRS! I just don't see how the OP can say Beckett "inflated numerical grades" when obviously PSA did it first by going from a 5 point scale to a 10 point scale, and then from a 10 point scale to a 19 point scale.

[campyfan39]

I agree that PSA is to blame for the confusion by expanding the scale from 1-5 to 1-10

[HRBAKER]

If there is a BCCG problem then it's a small one.
Few cards and even fewer folks who probably care.
I don't think they've graded enough cards to cause confusion.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If I submit a card to PSA, it could come back one of 46 different grades. And you guys think BCCG is confusing?

PSA Authentic
PSA 1
PSA 1 MK
PSA 1 OC
PSA 1 MC
PSA 1.5
PSA 2
PSA 2 MK
PSA 2 OC
PSA 2 MC
PSA 2.5
PSA 3
PSA 3 MK
PSA 3 OC
PSA 3 MC
PSA 3.5
PSA 4
PSA 4 MK
PSA 4 OC
PSA 4 MC
PSA 4.5
PSA 5
PSA 5 MK
PSA 5 OC
PSA 5 MC
PSA 5.5
PSA 6
PSA 6 MK
PSA 6 OC
PSA 6 MC
PSA 6.5
PSA 7
PSA 7 MK
PSA 7 OC
PSA 7 MC
PSA 7.5
PSA 8
PSA 8 MK
PSA 8 OC
PSA 8 MC
PSA 8.5
PSA 9
PSA 9 MK
PSA 9 OC
PSA 9 MC
PSA 10

[HRBAKER]

David,
That's a heck of a lot of grades but yet I think most folks who care about graded cards have a pretty good handle on it.

Jeff

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I can't say for sure Beckett was the first to define the grading scale, but it's the first time I've ever seen it in print. So, if they defined the grading scale, years before PSA (or any other TPG) shouldn't they have the right to change it? Absolutley! It's THEIRS! I just don't see how the OP can say Beckett "inflated numerical grades" when obviously PSA did it first by going from a 5 point scale to a 10 point scale, and then from a 10 point scale to a 19 point scale.

What's wrong with taking a 5 point scale and expanding on it? There's always variances within each grade, some cards that are borderline up or down.. The 10 point scale is perfectly fine...The 19 however, I will agree is pushing it.. PSA's half grades, are really quarter grades in the overall scheme of things..That to me, might be a little too much. But then again Beckett, I believe was the one to initiate half grades..

Now as far as BCCG is concerned. You can't go around having a 5 point scale that runs from 5-10... Why not just have it run from 95-100?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

David,
That's a heck of a lot of grades but yet I think most folks who care about graded cards have a pretty good handle on it.

Jeff

Jeff,

Absolutely agreed. That's why I don't understand the intent of the original post. People buying graded cards should be aware of the TPGs grading scale beforehand and, if not, should educate themselves before making a purchase. If the OP wants to inform folks about BCCG's grading scale, then that is terrific. However, to make it sound like BCCG is at fault for anything is absurd.

Also, in my post above I forgot the PD and the ST qualifier so make that 64 different grades that a PSA card could receive.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by novakjr

What's wrong with taking a 5 point scale and expanding on it?

Absolutley nothing wrong with it, but you missed my point. My point is that Beckett invented the scale, so why gripe about it when they want to change it? Nobody griped when PSA expanded it to a 10 point scale.

Originally Posted by novakjr

Now as far as BCCG is concerned. You can't go around having a 5 point scale that runs from 5-10... Why not just have it run from 95-100?

Why can't you have a scale that runs from 5-10? Why does it have to start with 1? Why did George Lucas start the Star Wars series with Episode IV? Because it's HIS movie. He can do whatever he wants. Likewise, it is Beckett's grading scale and they can do whatever they want.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Absolutley nothing wrong with it, but you missed my point. My point is that Beckett invented the scale, so why gripe about it when they want to change it? Nobody griped when PSA expanded it to a 10 point scale.



Why can't you have a scale that runs from 5-10? Why does it have to start with 1? Why did George Lucas start the Star Wars series with Episode IV? Because it's HIS movie. He can do whatever he wants. Likewise, it is Beckett's grading scale and they can do whatever they want.

Bad analogy. Lucas didn't start with Episode IV. Through a series of events and a few decades, it eventually became what is know as Episode IV, but originally, it was what it was. Numbers on any scale start at 1(or 0, depending on your view), that's just how it is. Using the number 5, the uninformed can easily be led to believe that it's at least better than 4 possible other grades...And using the number ten on a scale that ends at 10, one should be led to believe that it's the best possible, when we all know that isn't the case with BCCG. Compared to a standard 10 point scale, BCCG managed to skip number a 5 point scale that encompasses random grades between 1 and 8(on that 10 pt. scale) and numbers them from 5-10... The numbers are a clear intent to deceive. If it were just the grades I'd be fine with it, but the obvious bad math is not only retarded but shady as hell.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by novakjr

BaThe numbers are a clear intent to deceive. If it were just the grades I'd be fine with it, but the obvious bad math is not only retarded but shady as hell.

I can't believe some of the ridiculous stuff I read on these boards.



David, who exactly are they trying to deceive? The person that submited the card? Their grading scale is posted on their website. Anybody submitting a card to them should know their system.

[RobertGT]

Here is the point of my original post:

Buyer pays $1,500 for a BCCC 10 Jordan RC. Check out the corners and edges. It's an 8. He should have paid $700.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-87-flee...item53eadcbeed

Here we have someone paying $420 for a VG Nolan Ryan rookie worth $185:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Topps-C...item19cc2f90f6

And here we another buyer paying $420 for a BCCG 8 Gretzky rookie that's a 5 and worth $170:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-80-TOPP...item3f129b9323

I could pull up hundreds of examples like this happening every day on Ebay, so I wouldn't say it's a small problem. There are still plenty of novice collectors out there who only look at the numerical grade or have no clue what the Beckett grading scale is all about. And they are dropping big money. It's the little "don't ask, don't tell" secret among some sellers - and almost every one will have a title like "1975 Topps Joe Blow BGS BCCG 8" in the auction listing as a way to 1) capture search traffic and 2) fool the novice collector.

Should these buyers know better? Of course, and at the end of the day it is on them. I'm simply trying to help people understand what's going on and how they are being taken advantage of. I'm all for everyone making a buck where they can, but let's be honest, this is preying on beginners (or the stupid - whatever you prefer).

[frankbmd]

This thread is a BCCG 4!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

There are still plenty of novice collectors out there who only look at the numerical grade or have no clue what the Beckett grading scale is all about.

Are you really telling me that they buyers are only looking at the number on the flip, but not looking at the description of the grade which is like 2 millimeters below the number? I just don't buy that. I think they're just stupid.

I keep seeing these phrases like "intent to deceive," "shady as hell" or "preying on begineers" to describe Beckett's business practices. The submitter of the card is getting exactly what they are paying for so I just don't see any of that. They're offering a service which is clearly defined on their website.

It's real simple. If one doesn't like BCCG's system, don't use them.

[RobertGT]

[QUOTE=vintagetoppsguy;966240]Are you really telling me that they buyers are only looking at the number on the flip, but not looking at the description of the grade which is like 2 millimeters below the number? I just don't buy that. I think they're just stupid.

Yes, I am telling you the number 8 or 10 or 7 is the only thing they are looking at and they don't understand how to interpret the language. How else do you explain someone paying $75 for a Joe Montana RC with centering like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120814396149

That's a $35 card. And yes, they may be stupid. Or are they just NOVICES who do not know any better? Not everyone is as advanced in the realm of card collecting as the people on these boards. Best, Rob

[vintagetoppsguy]

Bob,

I gave my fiancee an engagement ring right before Christmas. I didn't just go to the closest jewelry store to my house and blindly pick one at random. I did a lot of research and homework before buying the diamond because I didn't know anything about them. My point is that any buyer (yes, even bb card buyers) should do their homework before making a purchase they know nothing about.

Go to Google and type the words "BCCG grading." Here is the first thing you will see: "BCCG-graded cards (Beckett Collectors Club Grading) are completely separate and vastly different from the premium BGS- or BVG-graded cards." If any novice spent only 1 minute (60 seconds) to research BCCG, that would tell them all they need to know.

If you want to save these morons from themselves, then that is fine. I admire you for that, but as I and others have said, at the end of the day the responsibility is on THEM, not BCCG.

[HANKCADDY]

you forgot PD

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If I submit a card to PSA, it could come back one of 46 different grades. And you guys think BCCG is confusing?

PSA Authentic
PSA 1
PSA 1 MK
PSA 1 OC
PSA 1 MC
PSA 1.5
PSA 2
PSA 2 MK
PSA 2 OC
PSA 2 MC
PSA 2.5
PSA 3
PSA 3 MK
PSA 3 OC
PSA 3 MC
PSA 3.5
PSA 4
PSA 4 MK
PSA 4 OC
PSA 4 MC
PSA 4.5
PSA 5
PSA 5 MK
PSA 5 OC
PSA 5 MC
PSA 5.5
PSA 6
PSA 6 MK
PSA 6 OC
PSA 6 MC
PSA 6.5
PSA 7
PSA 7 MK
PSA 7 OC
PSA 7 MC
PSA 7.5
PSA 8
PSA 8 MK
PSA 8 OC
PSA 8 MC
PSA 8.5
PSA 9
PSA 9 MK
PSA 9 OC
PSA 9 MC
PSA 10

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

[B]
I keep seeing these phrases like "intent to deceive," "shady as hell" or "preying on begineers" to describe Beckett's business practices. The submitter of the card is getting exactly what they are paying for so I just don't see any of that. They're offering a service which is clearly defined on their website.

I don't believe Beckett is being dishonest, but I do believe in some of the above examples, the people selling their product are trying to "deceive".

Beckett can offer any service they choose and the consumer can accept it or decline it, but IMO it's a joke.

[Leon]

First of all the top Beckett (grader) guys are advertisers and pretty good personal friends of mine. We all go out to lunch fairly frequently. That being said I have spoken with them at length about their product BCCG. But to start out with, Alan Hagar "invented" the 10 point grading scale, so we can get that bit of trivia out of the way. Secondly, BCCG is in existence mainly for mass merchants that need(ed) a cheaper product to sell in their venues, especially on TV. It has been around for quite some time and it is a part of their business model that they do good with. In this day and age grading companies would be stupid to not do things to increase their profits. I think the only thing they would change is the numbering system, if they had it to do over. Otherwise, the product is a good one for them regardless of what we think. I also don't think it's dishonest or deceitful whatsoever. There's my half cent on it....

[novakjr]

They found a way to put the number 10 on something that deserves and 8 at best. As I said before, I'm fine with the grades they're assigning. And that's really all that ultimately matters. But the number system is f'ed.. They're intentionally catering to people that just wanna see a 10 on their cards. How many times have we all seen BCCG cards listed as BGS 10 or simply Beckett 10 on the bay? Many sellers have the intent to deceive with these, and ultimately the fault lies with the uninformed buyers. But without this service, sellers wouldn't have this outlet for deception. If there wasn't the intent for corruption of the product, they would simply assign a grade and slab it, without the deceptive numbering.. Basically, I can agree that BCCG isn't out to deceive people, but they intentionally sold a product with the full knowledge that it would be corrupted. And honestly, the corruptible nature of these slabs is a huge selling point.

[RobertGT]

Originally Posted by novakjr

They found a way to put the number 10 on something that deserves and 8 at best. As I said before, I'm fine with the grades they're assigning. And that's really all that ultimately matters. But the number system is f'ed.. They're intentionally catering to people that just wanna see a 10 on their cards. How many times have we all seen BCCG cards listed as BGS 10 or simply Beckett 10 on the bay? Many sellers have the intent to deceive with these, and ultimately the fault lies with the uninformed buyers. But without this service, sellers wouldn't have this outlet for deception. If there wasn't the intent for corruption of the product, they would simply assign a grade and slab it, without the deceptive numbering.. Basically, I can agree that BCCG isn't out to deceive people, but they intentionally sold a product with the full knowledge that it would be corrupted. And honestly, the corruptible nature of these slabs is a huge selling point.

+1. Nailed the issue precisely.
My intent was never to issue an indictment of the BCCG grading service, but to explain to the uninitiated how some sellers are using it to sell inferior cards at inflated prices. And many are falling for the trick every day.

[Leon]

Guys, I agree that there are some who will set out to deceive with those cards. We can word it any way we want to but Beckett let the genie out of the bottle several years ago and she won't go back in. As I said, I feel confident that if the execs that are in place today, as opposed to those in place when that whole BCCG thing started were there, the numbering system would be different. I can sort of use the analogy of leaving your keys in your car, unlocked, and having it stolen. It's not your fault someone is a thief but you did enable them to steal. best regards

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by novakjr

I can agree that BCCG isn't out to deceive people, but they intentionally sold a product with the full knowledge that it would be corrupted.

For decades, scammers have been trimming Topps (or insert another card manufacturer here) baseball cards in order to deceive the buyer into thinking they're getting a card that is of better condition than it actually is (was).

Topps intentionally sells a product with full knowledge that it will be corrupted. Topps is completely at fault as they are enabling the trimmer by continuing to sell their product.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

For decades, scammers have been trimming Topps (or insert another card manufacturer here) baseball cards in order to deceive the buyer into thinking they're getting a card that is of better condition than it actually is (was).

Topps intentionally sells a product with full knowledge that it will be corrupted. Topps is completely at fault as they are enabling the trimmer by continuing to sell their product.

Another bad analogy. With the Topps cards, a physical action must take place beyond Topps' control, before the deception...With BCCG, no other action is needed. Just straight to the deception.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Leon

Guys, I agree that there are some who will set out to deceive with those cards. We can word it any way we want to but Beckett let the genie out of the bottle several years ago and she won't go back in. As I said, I feel confident that if the execs that are in place today, as opposed to those in place when that whole BCCG thing started, the numbering would be different. I can sort of use the analogy of leaving your keys in your car, unlocked, and having it stolen. It's not your fault someone is a thief but you did enable them to steal. best regards

The car analogy isn't bad...Although, I'd compare it more to leaving the keys in a borrowed car in the ghetto.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Another bad analogy. With the Topps cards, a physical action must take place beyond Topps' control, before the deception...With BCCG, no other action is needed. Just straight to the deception.

Umm, no. Great analogy. Failure by someone to comprehend. Your statement was, "Many sellers have the intent to deceive with these, and ultimately the fault lies with the uninformed buyers. But without this service, sellers wouldn't have this outlet for deception." So yes, there is an action - it's the sellers listing the cards with deceptive titles and/or descriptions. The cards aren't selling themselves are they?

[HRBAKER]

At worst they offer a product that presents bad sellers a "graded" opportunity to mislead non-savvy buyers. No doubt that was not their intention and Leon's point about the genie is well taken. It probably in hindsight wasn't a good decision to go with the unique numbering system based on the way it has played out. What sellers do with the cards after they are graded is on the sellers though.

Again do your homework and don't count on any seller doing it for you. I for one don't stop for a second to look at any BCCG graded card becuase I immediately question the motives of anyone that gets cards graded by them. Again not the grader, the seller.

Guns don't kill people, people do.

[doug.goodman]

As a "raw" guy, maybe my opinion is worthless, but how a company was able to create a logic where cards with the same numerical grade are of completely different qualities is beyond me.

Doug

[theseeker]

I'm not a PSA fan. However, their 1-10 scale was established as the industy standard by virtue of their early, dominant entry into a fledgling market. Beckett's use of the past and present standard of a 1-5 grading scale for it's card price guide and a 1-10 grading scale for it's premium grading service is all well and good. BUT, the use of a 1-5 grading scale that starts at 6 through 10, for a substandard service branch, is an obvious attempt at deception. It sets up an avenue for unethical sellers to submit cards to BCCG with the intent to deceive prospective buyers. Other than that, there is no real reason for anyone to use that particular service AND Beckett's knows it. I really lost all repect for Beckett's when they hatched that plan.

Yeah, sure, as always, it's buyer beware. It's also yet another industry eyesore stemming from greed and adding to an ever declining market.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by theseeker

I'm not a PSA fan. However, their 1-10 scale was established as the industy standard by virtue of their early, dominant entry into a fledgling market. Beckett's use of the past and present standard of a 1-5 grading scale for it's card price guide and a 1-10 grading scale for it's premium grading service is all well and good. BUT, the use of a 1-5 grading scale that starts at 6 through 10, for a substandard service branch, is an obvious attempt at deception. It sets up an avenue for unethical sellers to submit cards to BCCS with the intent to deceive prospective buyers. Other than that, there is no real reason for anyone to use that particular service AND Beckett's knows it. I really lost all repect for Beckett's when they hatched that plan.

Yeah, sure, as always, it's buyer beware. It's also yet another industry eyesore stemming from greed and adding to an ever declining market.

Exactly!!! You can't tell me that the people at Beckett didn't know what would happen from the start...They had to. They knew the significance of the number 10, and they found a way to get people to give them money in exchange for a 10 on sub-par cards that otherwise probably would've never been submitted. They played off of the deceptive nature of the hobby and decided to cash in on it.

[mintacular]

...

[David W]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Exactly!!! You can't tell me that the people at Beckett didn't know what would happen from the start...They had to. They knew the significance of the number 10, and they found a way to get people to give them money in exchange for a 10 on sub-par cards that otherwise probably would've never been submitted. They played off of the deceptive nature of the hobby and decided to cash in on it.

If there wasn't at least some intent to satisfy some large bulk submitters with misleading grades of "10" it seems more logical they would have run their five point scale from 1 to 5.

But ever since Bo Derek a "10" has been what people wanted, not a "5".

And HSC wouldn't have submitted as many cards hoping for "5's"....

So grandma surfing ebay or watching HSC hears "This Derek Jeter card has been graded a "10" by Beckett" and doesn't understand the difference in grading scales and plunks down $50 for a birthday present thinking she got a deal.

So I guess everyone is happy, HSC/Ebay dealer makes money, BCCG makes money, BCCG stockholders make money, and granny thinks she got a deal.

And that folks is the beauty of the free market system......

[tonyo]

I prefer raw, but do like the extra security of buying more expensive cards (for me) in a slab just for the increased odds that I'd be buying an authentic unaltered card. Despite the difference in grading scales, is there any reason to think a BCCG card has any more chance of being a fake or altered than PSA, SGC, or BGS ?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Pat, just the opposite is true. Nobody has added more confustion to the marketplace than PSA. Go look at the very first issue of Beckett. It came out years before PSA was ever in business. In that magazine, there is a 5 point grading scale with a definition for each grade - Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent and Mint.

Notice you don't see Poor, VG/EX, EX/MT, NM, NM-MT, etc. There were only 5 grades and the system worked. Then came PSA and they told us we've been doing it wrong and that there were 10 grades. BULL$HIT!

Sorry, but PSA didn't invent VG/EX, EX/MT, NM, NM/MT.

Those were around long before the TPA's.

Beckett never fit those grades in their "Price Guides", because the font would be too small, and the price research would be too daunting, the publication landscape being what it was in those days.

Dealers used them all the time.

I will also add, back in those earlier days and being a weekend warrior doing shows all the time...........I never once used the term MINT, to describe a card.

I'd use NM or even NM/MT, but there was always some sort of bug in my head that made me tell myself a true MINT piece of cardboard coming out of a pack of gum, was inherently impossible.

Maybe I was just being silly, I don't know.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by David W

So grandma surfing ebay or watching HSC hears "This Derek Jeter card has been graded a "10" by Beckett" and doesn't understand the difference in grading scales and plunks down $50 for a birthday present thinking she got a deal.

Wow, what a nice grandma. OK, how about this one. Using your example above, let's say grandma is surfing eBay for a Derek Jeter card that has been graded a "10" and comes across one from SGC (their lowest grade possible) and doesn't understand the difference in grading scales and plunks down $50 for a birthday present thinking she got a deal.

If grandma doesn't understand the grading scale and thinks a 10 is a 10 is a 10, then what's the difference in my example and yours? There is none!

So by your logic SGC is being deceptive as well by offering a grade of 10, right? So if you're complaining about BCCG's 10, why not complain about SGC's 10? Come on, you can't have it both ways! How can you tell me that BCCG's 10 could be confusing to someone that doesn't know the grading scale, but SGC's 10 isn't? Please answer that!

That question isn't only addressed to DavidW, but also to the others that said BCCGs 10 was deceptive.

[David W]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Wow, what a nice grandma. OK, how about this one. Using your example above, let's say grandma is surfing eBay for a Derek Jeter card that has been graded a "10" and comes across one from SGC (their lowest grade possible) and doesn't understand the difference in grading scales and plunks down $50 for a birthday present thinking she got a deal.

If grandma doesn't understand the grading scale and thinks a 10 is a 10 is a 10, then what's the difference in my example and yours? There is none!

So by your logic SGC is being deceptive as well by offering a grade of 10, right? So if you're complaining about BCCG's 10, why not complain about SGC's 10? Come on, you can't have it both ways! How can you tell me that BCCG's 10 could be confusing to someone that doesn't know the grading scale, but SGC's 10 isn't? Please answer that!

That question isn't only addressed to DavidW, but also to the others that said BCCGs 10 was deceptive.

I don't know (or really care) if they are being deceptive or not, my point is that uninformed casual buyers don't know BCCG grades on a five point scale from 5 to 10. It's no coincidence they don't go from 1 to 5. As for SGC and their weird grading scale, at least a "10" from them is labeled "Poor", not NM/M. I've got no idea why SGC doesn't go to the 1 to 10 scale like everybody else (except BCCG)..... Maybe stubborness as the counter culture grading company or something??????

BCCG is just a way for everybody to make more money and for granny to get "DEALS" on Jeter and A Rod and Peyton Manning and Jeremy Lin "Super Shiny Jumbo Refracting limited edition # of $20,000" cards.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by David W

As for SGC and their weird grading scale, at least a "10" from them is labeled "Poor"...

David, the premisis for your original argument (which is the same point others have made) is that "granny" (or any uneducated buyer) could be confused by BCCG's grading scale by assuming that one TPG's 10 is the same as another TPG's 10.

My counter argument was that if "granny" (or any uneducated buyer) could be confused by BCCG's 10, then why couldn't they be confused by SGC's 10?

Now you try to prove your argument by stating "at least a "10" from them (SGC) is labeled "Poor..." Sorry, but that's where you lose your argument and here's why. We've already covered this objection. See post #17 where I tried to defend BCCG by saying that they are putting a description of the grade on their flip, and then the following post where the OP said that buyers aren't reading the description, only the number grade. So, the word "Poor" or anything else doesn't matter - only the number (grade) assigned to the flip.

So, I ask my question again. How can you tell me that BCCG's 10 could be confusing to someone that doesn't know the grading scale, but SGC's 10 isn't?

Edited to add 2 things:

1.) At least David came back on here to try to defend his position. Nothing but silence from the others who tried to make the same argument that David did.

2.) I agree with David that it is just a way for BCCG to make more money. But he says that likes it a bad thing. What's wrong with making money? When did companies that make a profit become evil? Didn't PSA exapand their grading scale (the use of half grades) to make more money?

[David W]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

David, the premisis for your original argument (which is the same point others have made) is that "granny" (or any uneducated buyer) could be confused by BCCG's grading scale by assuming that one TPG's 10 is the same as another TPG's 10.

My counter argument was that if "granny" (or any uneducated buyer) could be confused by BCCG's 10, then why couldn't they be confused by SGC's 10?

Now you try to prove your argument by stating "at least a "10" from them (SGC) is labeled "Poor..." Sorry, but that's where you lose your argument and here's why. We've already covered this objection. See post #17 where I tried to defend BCCG by saying that they are putting a description of the grade on their flip, and then the following post where the OP said that buyers aren't reading the description, only the number grade. So, the word "Poor" or anything else doesn't matter - only the number (grade) assigned to the flip.

So, I ask my question again. How can you tell me that BCCG's 10 could be confusing to someone that doesn't know the grading scale, but SGC's 10 isn't?

Edited to add 2 things:

1.) At least David came back on here to try to defend his position. Nothing but silence from the others who tried to make the same argument that David did.

2.) I agree with David that it is just a way for BCCG to make more money. But he says that likes it a bad thing. What's wrong with making money? When did companies that make a profit become evil? Didn't PSA exapand their grading scale (the use of half grades) to make more money?

1 - SGC's grading scale confuses the bejeebers out of me, are you happy>>>>
:-) - I think an 84 should be about the same as an 8.5, but it's not.....so I'll concede you the point.

2 - I own my own business, I have no problem with BCCG making money, or anyone else. :-)

3 - As for TPG companies, I've only got a handful of graded cards, they serve a purpose, and I hope they all succeed but I never renewed my PSA membership a couple years, and they never seemed to miss me, so I never went back. :-)
4 - Never, never argue with anyone named David. You will never win. :-) Unless it's my wife, in which case she wins (but only when I let her)

[alanu]

The one difference I see with Beckett is that they are one company with 2 different grading scales... which can create some confusion.

I'll have to admit that when Beckett first came out with BCCG I was somewhat confused and I consider myself a somewhat avid collector. Now I just ignore all BCCG slabs.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by alanu

The one difference I see with Beckett is that they are one company with 2 different grading scales... which can create some confusion.

I'll have to admit that when Beckett first came out with BCCG I was somewhat confused and I consider myself a somewhat avid collector. Now I just ignore all BCCG slabs.

Becket didn't need 2 scales...BCCG was a cheap alternative to get 10's on cards that wouldn't have normally been submitted. Why couldn't they just lower the prices on the BGS grading if they wanted more business? If everyone was being honest, it would've evened out in the end for them...However, they knew they'd make more money by creating a scale that would put a 10 on cards that would normally grade anywhere from 6-8. I say as low as 6 because I don't think they consider centering all that heavily on their scale. I've seen some fairly off centered cards in BCCG 10 holders..

[alanu]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Becket didn't need 2 scales...BCCG was a cheap alternative to get 10's on cards that wouldn't have normally been submitted. Why couldn't they just lower the prices on the BGS grading if they wanted more business? If everyone was being honest, it would've evened out in the end for them...However, they knew they'd make more money by creating a scale that would put a 10 on cards that would normally grade anywhere from 6-8. I say as low as 6 because I don't think they consider centering all that heavily on their scale. I've seen some fairly off centered cards in BCCG 10 holders..

I would agree that the BCCG grades are enablers to those trying to deceive others, much like someone supplying drugs to a drug addict... not really "much like", but "somewhat like"

[RobertGT]

I also think it's a cop out to say, as some previous posts have, that the "genie is out of the bottle" on this one, or that if the current Beckett execs could change history regarding the initial bogus BCCG numerical grading scale, they would.

The way I see it, it would be very easy for the current Beckett management to change the absurd BCCG scale TOMORROW and call a VG/EX card a 4, rather than a 8, and call a NRMT card a 7 instead of a 10. What are we talking about - maybe printing a different number on a bunch of flips? How is that an irreversible business decision? Would such a change cost them tens of millions of dollars? NO.

The current Beckett people may not have made the horrible decision regarding the scale all those years ago, but THEY DO have the power to make things right today. It's called being responsible to your customers. When you have the knowledge that your product is being used to deceive and swindle ill-informed people out of thousands of dollars on eBay everyday, YOU change.

But we all know that will never happen and the reasons why it never will.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I have never seen more b!tching and complaining in all my life. It's real simple: If you don't like the product, don't use/buy it.

I don't like Olive Garden because I had a bad experience there 20 years ago and I've never been back. But I don't go starting threads about it or forcing my opinion on those that do like it.

Y'alls life must be really pathetic if you have nothing better to do than to sit around and b!tch about the way a company does business. I really think some of you need this:

[ALR-bishop]

I kind of like that place but it is darn hard to get into around where I live

[HRBAKER]

David,

Your right. I gonna save my complaints up for when it's really important.
Like when I get a NPB alert after 4 days bc a seller is supposed to have ESP and know I have been unable to pay for a legitimate reason.

The fact is everyone has a POV, it would be boring if everyone thought the same thing. I have no idea why a company would decide to have 2 products which basically do the same thing but employ a different scale. I have my ideas but I don't know.

The fact is that is a discussion forum. My guess is that many of the folks in this post have obviously opted not to do business with BCCG just like you did with Olive Garden. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't discuss it.

Just my $0.02.

Rag on!

[alanu]

I always get cranky around this time of the month.

I'm just glad I don't have the time to respond to all this bitching and complaining

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by alanu

I always get cranky around this time of the month.

I'm just glad I don't have the time to respond to all this bitching and complaining

It'll be here when you get back!