Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meanwhile, as best I can determine, the guarantee that used to appear on S_C's website remains missing in action. I asked about this months ago and was assured they were just tweaking the language and that it would reappear shortly.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

The reality IMO is that the number of altered slabbed cards, if exposed, would break PSA under their guaranty. Accordingly, to hear PSA allegedly take the position I highlighted in red does not surprise me in the least.

As yet this contingent liability has been kept under control because the market price of PSA slabbed cards has not been impacted to create the kind of financial loss that would induce card owners to spend the significant resources to sue under the guaranty. As the outing continues, presumably along with continued investigations by law enforcement, public knowledge of the fraud will increase. As has been noted, the question is whether it will increase to the point that the stock price of Collectors Universe will begin to fall, along with the market value of PSA slabbed cards.

Earlier I made a post expressing skepticism that absent a new TPG company that uses as part of its business model the outing of altered cards to gain market share, public knowledge may not increase to the level to threaten PSA. Now I simply don't know, and would not be surprised to see this all start to unravel sooner than might be expected.

This is a massive fraud folks, and based on Keith's video, raises the question if and to what extent PSA is in cahoots with the card doctors.

TPG was supposed to take us out of the wild west when deciding whether and how much to pay for a card. Peter's checklist of what a prudent person should do before deciding to buy a PSA slabbed card shatters any notion that TPG comes close to accomplishing this. It IS ridiculous that one would have to check off the items on Peter's list before going ahead with a purchase, and the fact it has IMO portends a not-so-rosy future for certain categories of PSA slabbed cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

Peter your impression which I believe to be 100% true is the reason nothing will change....the altering businesses will continue, PSA will will continue to thrive, the collectors are the last thing PSA Cares About.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Meanwhile, as best I can determine, the guarantee that used to appear on S_C's website remains missing in action. I asked about this months ago and was assured they were just tweaking the language and that it would reappear shortly.

My memory is shot so please correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't SGCs guarantee on cards that they would regrade the card and give it the proper grade?

I don't remember them having a guarantee like PSA has.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I think "done much" is the key phrase here. I have bought graded cards (though not many), BUT I didn't buy the cards because they were graded. I will still buy cards that are graded but will scrutinize and make appropriate offers on them as if they weren't. I think quite a few people here are at least of the same mind set. That's not much, but I am looking at the cards more closely and not enamored by someone else's opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

My memory is shot so please correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't SGCs guarantee on cards that they would regrade the card and give it the proper grade?

I don't remember them having a guarantee like PSA has.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170704...Guarantee.aspx

The SGC Guarantee


SGC guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

Well, you all know what I'm doin....I'm Nancy Reagan, "Just Say No" to all of it.

Why anyone would want to continue to add to what already is easily a Billion $$$$$ fraud is beyond me? It is mind boggling actually. If one has to work with Peter's checklist before buying a stupid card, I don't see the fun or funny in it, honestly.

Ponzi's customers didn't want to believe the sky was falling either and kept adding to it too, much like this PSA SCAM. It's just the sad state of the human condition which is actually most fascinating thing in all this that I enjoy following. Even when they know it's a fraudulent billion dollar scam they can't take the foot off the pedal.

A nice little 2007 recession would shake things up a little.

[mq711]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I’m not a big fish but haven’t submitted anything to PSA nor purchased anything from PWCC since I found out about this scandal. Decided to work on a midgrade, raw 1960s set just to keep my interest in the hobby alive.

Perfect example of my feelings is a 1969 Mays PSA 9 on EBay, all I can see is how short the card is in the holder (over 1/16 inch or 1cm) and thus wouldn’t buy it at any price.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Well, you all know what I'm doin....I'm Nancy Reagan, "Just Say No" to all of it.

Why anyone would want to continue to add to what already is easily a Billion $$$$$ fraud is beyond me? It is mind boggling actually. If one has to work with Peter's checklist before buying a stupid card, I don't see the fun or funny in it, honestly.

Ponzi's customers didn't want to believe the sky was falling either and kept adding to it too, much like this PSA SCAM. It's just the sad state of the human condition which is actually most fascinating thing in all this that I enjoy following. Even when they know it's a fraudulent billion dollar scam they can't take the foot off the pedal.

A nice little 2007 recession would shake things up a little.

If there was another recession I would buy even more.

[Johnny630]

Recessions are the best time to buy. I absolutely do not want a recession. To many people get hurt and the altered cards are still crap, just cheaper crap.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=243

I find REA To have the most integrity of all major/large auction houses.

Everyone is criticizing them with having graded altered cards....why isn’t anyone placing blame/criticizing PSA.


PSA hasn’t had to answer for anything .....it’s a double standard and total BS

REA has taken down the cards at issue as well as a PSA 7 Leaf DiMaggio that was outed as recolored. Another day in the hobby. Good luck finding high grade unaltered Leafs.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

REA has taken down the cards at issue as well as a PSA 7 Leaf DiMaggio that was outed as recolored. Another day in the hobby. Good luck finding high grade unaltered Leafs.

Moral to this story PSA is worthless

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Moral to this story PSA is worthless

A lot of industry players are worthless.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A lot of industry players are worthless.

Agree......sad state of affairs. As each day passes it only gets worse :-(

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought we were done with Gary for a while, guess not.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=6068

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought we were done with Gary for a while, guess not.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=6068

The card doctor seems almost inconsequential at this point. We're losing count of how many have gotten their "work" past the self-appointed experts.

Perhaps it's PSA we need to be "done with".

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The card doctor seems almost inconsequential at this point. We're losing count of how many have gotten their "work" past the self-appointed experts.

Perhaps it's PSA we need to be "done with".

The card doctors are shameful however I 100 % Agree with your PSA Point. What the hell is their purpose???

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

The card doctors are shameful however I 100 % Agree with your PSA Point. What the hell is their purpose???

Yeah, I should've said the specific card doctor is inconsequential. It doesn't really matter who is doing the cutting and coloring, when so many of them can get it past these clowns.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yeah, I should've said the specific card doctor is inconsequential. It doesn't really matter who is doing the cutting and coloring, when so many of them can get it past these clowns.

Or the clowns are choosing not to look very hard.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Could very well happen as well....there are gonna be some heated battles

'heated battles' sending a letter back and forth...wow thats heated..

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I am but a minnow in an extremely large pond when it comes to grading but I did have about ten raw cards I considered sending to PSA as I had hoped for decent grades and being able to sell them for a profit. When this scandal broke I decided the last thing I wanted to do was contribute to the lunacy and have not and will not send those cards in.

I have recently bought already graded cards only because I was buying the card and the graded price and raw price was almost identical. These were low to mid grade cards that obviously have not been doctored and will likely be taken out of their slabs soon.

Reading the Blowout forums as well as a few others, there are certainly far to many people who speak out of both sides of their mouth when they say something needs to be done about this scandal yet send in their cards for grading. When and where do collectors take a stand is a question only each person can answer for themselves.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I am but a minnow in an extremely large pond when it comes to grading but I did have about ten raw cards I considered sending to PSA as I had hoped for decent grades and being able to sell them for a profit. When this scandal broke I decided the last thing I wanted to do was contribute to the lunacy and have not and will not send those cards in.

I have recently bought already graded cards only because I was buying the card and the graded price and raw price was almost identical. These were low to mid grade cards that obviously have not been doctored and will likely be taken out of their slabs soon.

Reading the Blowout forums as well as a few others, there are certainly far to many people who speak out of both sides of their mouth when they say something needs to be done about this scandal yet send in their cards for grading. When and where do collectors take a stand is a question only each person can answer for themselves.

I think the problem arises is this. Why should I be penalized because of all the crap Moser has pulled???? I am not trimming cards. Graded cards bring more. Period. I understand the boycott PSA mentality, but as I stated....Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I think the problem arises is this. Why should I be penalized because of all the crap Moser has pulled???? I am not trimming cards. Graded cards bring more. Period. I understand the boycott PSA mentality, but as I stated....Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

Scruples.

And it's a lot more than just a few individuals. Moser is just one of very many that continue to get altered cards past PSA.

Money and personal gain seem to be the motivator and common denominator for the vast majority of those who continue to support this highly troubled Authenticator.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I think the problem arises is this. Why should I be penalized because of all the crap Moser has pulled???? I am not trimming cards. Graded cards bring more. Period. I understand the boycott PSA mentality, but as I stated....Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

Their actions along with PSA's Failures have caused collateral damage to all of us. The collectors always get screwed.

It's a shame the industry and hobby will survive it always has and always will.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

The same reason all our houses and portfolios took a hit in 2009....the greed of a few individuals. Like it or not, everything’s linked.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Their actions along with PSA's Failures have caused collateral damage to all of us. The collectors always get screwed.

It's a shame the industry and hobby will survive it always has and always will.

Right... Post #1073 illustrates exactly why it will take a significant market correction for people to change their collecting habits, and eventually stop supporting the corruption and deception.
But until that correction comes, very little is likely to change (unless by some miracle, the FBI can intervene).

[Goudey77]

I really don't need to state this to the educated collectors on Net54.
But I want to say the obvious in response to the comment below..You already know the driving factor in this entire hobby will always be about money. Everything is driven by TPG's, Auction Houses, VCP data and the consumers chasing profits.
Everything else is just noise.

It's not a casual sentimental hobby like it was in the 80's and earlier.
It's a foregone conclusion that the show must go on.

Originally Posted by whitehse

Reading the Blowout forums as well as a few others, there are certainly far to many people who speak out of both sides of their mouth when they say something needs to be done about this scandal yet send in their cards for grading. When and where do collectors take a stand is a question only each person can answer for themselves.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I really don't need to state this to the educated collectors on Net54.
But I want to say the obvious in response to the comment below..You already know the driving factor in this entire hobby will always be about money. Everything is driven by TPG's, Auction Houses, VCP data and the consumers chasing profits.
Everything else is just noise.

It's not a casual sentimental hobby like it was in the 80's and earlier.
It's a foregone conclusion that the show must go on.

I do not disagree that the driving factor in this issue is indeed money. A wiser man than I once wrote that the LOVE is money is the root of all evil (Thank you Paul).

My opinion is that there are far more collectors who collect for the fun of it and perhaps even the memories the hobby incites for them and not for the money. I strongly believe there is a much higher percentage of collectors who fall into this category and could care less about getting the highest grade possible or being the top dog on the registry. What I feel this means is that eventually, mid or low grade cards will become the norm and raw will once again make a come back and collectors who purchased these high grade cards will eventually lose money because their high grade cards will be tainted even if they are NOT doctored. There will still be speculators but I hope that this scandal will help separate a few of them out and help to eliminate some of the card doctors profits.

Maybe I am being a bit Pollyanna about this but I am still a hopeless romantic when it comes to this hobby.

[Goudey77]

Although there could be a loss due to natural collectible market scenarios. I'd say your last statement about high grade card prices losing due to being tainted regardless of doctoring is a pipedream

Money does not lose money generally. There will be no need for a fire sale. These cards are secure by their financially stable owners until the next buyer lines up to win it at the next auction.

Low mid grade will always be for the collectors. I just don't see much changing from the current state.

Originally Posted by whitehse

I do not disagree that the driving factor in this issue is indeed money. A wiser man than I once wrote that the LOVE is money is the root of all evil (Thank you Paul).

My opinion is that there are far more collectors who collect for the fun of it and perhaps even the memories the hobby incites for them and not for the money. I strongly believe there is a much higher percentage of collectors who fall into this category and could care less about getting the highest grade possible or being the top dog on the registry. What I feel this means is that eventually, mid or low grade cards will become the norm and raw will once again make a come back and collectors who purchased these high grade cards will eventually lose money because their high grade cards will be tainted even if they are NOT doctored. There will still be speculators but I hope that this scandal will help separate a few of them out and help to eliminate some of the card doctors profits.

Maybe I am being a bit Pollyanna about this but I am still a hopeless romantic when it comes to this hobby.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I think the problem arises is this. Why should I be penalized because of all the crap Moser has pulled???? I am not trimming cards. Graded cards bring more. Period. I understand the boycott PSA mentality, but as I stated....Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

For years that monetary value has had the benefit of that same greed of a few individuals.

[Peter_Spaeth]

all is well

https://seekingalpha.com/article/430...=seeking_alpha

[Johnny630]

From the Above Article....two main points to me.

Remember this is a very emotional marketplace. Collectors have an emotional attachment and they would pay any fee to have their collectibles graded if they think it is worth a lot of money.

[perezfan]

Disgustingly gratuitous article. Does this guy have blinders on? Not a word about the scandal... completely irresponsible reporting.

Feels like there was some “greasing of palms” that preceded that article.

[Rhotchkiss]

There is a place to comment. I will not sign up (because I don’t sign up for things generally), but people can and can comment. I would love to see some comments regarding the scandal with links to BODA threads.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Disgustingly gratuitous article. Does this guy have blinders on? Not a word about the scandal... completely irresponsible reporting.

Feels like there was some “greasing of palms” that preceded that article.

Eh. This scandal you speak of is just a few malcontents spouting off on a message board. Just ask Joe and Steve.

[swarmee]

Remember that Seeking Alpha is a blog type site, not really sourced. That was mentioned when one of the contributors actually "broke" the story to the mainstream investors who might read that site. I believe it preceded even the Washington Post and New York Times articles.

[irv]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I think the problem arises is this. Why should I be penalized because of all the crap Moser has pulled???? I am not trimming cards. Graded cards bring more. Period. I understand the boycott PSA mentality, but as I stated....Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

Bobby, no offense, but you submitted cards and asked/called others to see if there was any interest in doing so "after" this scandal broke when their was sufficient evidence at that time that PSA was culpable and possibly complicit in all this.

Each to their own but I will never understand how someone can continue to support a business or anyone like this then cry afoul when it all falls apart.

I quit supporting PWCC when I realized they were banking large on their shipping fees alone. Imo, if they were capable of breaking simple shipping rules and are that easily motivated by greed then they are capable of much more.
I was not surprised in the least when this scandal broke and PWCC were implicated.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by irv

Bobby, no offense, but you submitted cards and asked/called others to see if there was any interest in doing so "after" this scandal broke when their was sufficient evidence at that time that PSA was culpable and possibly complicit in all this.

Each to their own but I will never understand how someone can continue to support a business or anyone like this then cry afoul when it all falls apart.

+1

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

all is well

https://seekingalpha.com/article/430...=seeking_alpha

From the article-

As more people become aware of the PSA and PCGS brand name, trust becomes a key component in the marketplace. It is a guarantee that gives buyers and sellers stable ground around transactions.



.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

From the article-

As more people become aware of the PSA and PCGS brand name, trust becomes a key component in the marketplace. It is a guarantee that gives buyers and sellers stable ground around transactions.



.

Amen. Tell it, Joe.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Amen. Tell it, Joe.

Their company is based on pure opinion only based grading. They have a Teflon non stick business model with rockstar marking, pop report and registry.
They will never be taken down. It’s only their opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You don't pull the mask of the old Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Joe

[Johnny630]

PSA Definitely has A Cult Like Base it’s Growing Everyday

When people believe a card in their holder will always be worth more money they will do anything they have to do to get said card in a Newport Beach Holder.

[Peter_Spaeth]

No one knows how all this will turn out of course, but it would not surprise me at all if Joe is able to stuff this the same way he was able to stuff WIWAG, Mexican holders, etc. He is not to be underestimated, and there are many factors on his side. Among those factors are allegiance, addiction, and indifference.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No one knows how all this will turn out of course, but it would not surprise me at all if Joe is able to stuff this the same way he was able to stuff WIWAG, Mexican holders, etc. He is not to be underestimated, and there are many factors on his side. Among those factors are allegiance, addiction, and indifference.

Agree they’re masters in marketing I think this will all blow over. Like you said we are just a few malcontents on a message board.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No one knows how all this will turn out of course, but it would not surprise me at all if Joe is able to stuff this the same way he was able to stuff WIWAG, Mexican holders, etc. He is not to be underestimated, and there are many factors on his side. Among those factors are allegiance, addiction, and indifference.

I could be wrong but I don't think Joe has much to do with it. For me it is the people with tons of cash wrapped up in those magic plastic holders, the card doctors(way more of those than you could ever imagine), and the dishonest dealers(also WAY more than you think) that rely on those magic plastic holders for their living.

So not to leave Beckett out just ask Joe Clemons how awesome they are.

SGC closed down is autograph department it was so bad.

Hit the major 3 to keep it somewhat fair.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Give credit where it's due, I say. Read the transcript of the July CU analyst call. It's brilliant.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Give credit where it's due, I say. Read the transcript of the July CU analyst call. It's brilliant.

I have always given credit to the marketing of PSA. They are second to none, hell they could sell poop sandwiches at Lobster Fest in Maine. Marketing will make you buy the sandwich but it takes all the others to get you to come back for another one.

The difference for me is that marketing can get you started or give you the occasional bump. To make it long term you need the others to keep it going.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Give credit where it's due, I say. Read the transcript of the July CU analyst call. It's brilliant.

If it comes in mid teens buy buy buy CLCT.....it’s been proven people always come back to them no matter what. Cult like following.

Stock is a trade no a investment in my mind.