Production Estimates / Print Run Archive

[Hooliganlv]

I would love to know the Leaf print runs in the mid 80s. The pop report for an 87 Bo Jackson and 87 Barry Bonds in PSA 10 are only in the 90s.

In contrast, their 87 Topps Tiffany PSA 10s are in the 300s.

[dave416]

A question about the 1993 Finest Refractors - the PSA pop shows 282 for the Frank Thomas Refractor (#102) alone - could there be that many re-submissions? And would that many of them have been submitted?

EDIT - looks like there was a 2015 thread concerning this with crossovers and mislabels considered the most likely explanation.

[homerunderby]

Originally Posted by dave416

A question about the 1993 Finest Refractors - the PSA pop shows 282 for the Frank Thomas Refractor (#102) alone - could there be that many re-submissions? And would that many of them have been submitted?

EDIT - looks like there was a 2015 thread concerning this with crossovers and mislabels considered the most likely explanation.

The number cited in 1993 for the Finest Refractors are 241 each, which came 1:9 packs if I remember correctly.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by homerunderby

The number cited in 1993 for the Finest Refractors are 241 each, which came 1:9 packs if I remember correctly.

IIRC the Finest Refractors were 1:24 (one per box) 1:9 would have increased the print run significantly

Rich

[insidethewrapper]

Ref: 1993 Topps Finest . Here's the numbers: 4,000 ( 12 box ) cases were produced = 48,000 boxes . These were 18ct boxes. Packs contained 6 cards ( five cards + one of the All-Star Cards ( # 84-116)
Odds of refractors were :1:9 packs or 2 per box or a total of 96,000 refractors /199 cards in the set = 482 each . Not sure why or where the 241 has been listed for years, the numbers indicate double that amonut at 482.

Total : 864,000 packs= 4,320,00 cards ( 26,024 of 166 of the cards in the set, and 26,182 of the 33 All-Star Cards (#84-116). About equal. Subtract the 482 each for refractors and you get about 25,500 of each.

5" x 7" Jumbo Cards ( 1 per box) = 48,000 Total. Only issued for the 33 card
All-Star cards. But one of 6 was with Special Foil. Therefore 40,000 were regular foil and 8,000 were Special enhanced Foil. Therefore 40,000/33 =1212 of each regular foil All-Star Jumbo and 8,000/33 = 242 of the Jumbo Special Enhanced Foil cards. NOTE: Maybe this is where that 241 number came up. It was with the Jumbo Refractors not the regular card Refractors. Are jumbo Refractors graded ??

[JUrsaner]

Appreciate all the replies!

Haven't been able to focus on this for a little bit, but just added/updated a whole bunch of sets to the list. If anyone sees any sets where they can add info - don't be nervous to jump in. If anyone has sets you'd like to see added (for instance just added some of the early Upper Deck and Zenith) feel free to say that as well. Next step is hoping to add a bunch of misc. oddball sets

Kept the 1993 Finest Refractor at /241 for now, but have noticed the issue with that one as a non-numbered set for a long time. I'll revisit it later

[West]

Originally Posted by JUrsaner

Appreciate all the replies!

Haven't been able to focus on this for a little bit, but just added/updated a whole bunch of sets to the list. If anyone sees any sets where they can add info - don't be nervous to jump in. If anyone has sets you'd like to see added (for instance just added some of the early Upper Deck and Zenith) feel free to say that as well. Next step is hoping to add a bunch of misc. oddball sets

Kept the 1993 Finest Refractor at /241 for now, but have noticed the issue with that one as a non-numbered set for a long time. I'll revisit it later

Some detective work from Net54 member Zach Wheat regarding 1991 Topps and Desert Shield -

"The Feb 4, 1991 issue of The Pittsburgh Gazette indicates that "...the Topps cards were issued 2 Months prior..." (so Dec 1990) and that Topps had actually planned the shipment before the war (ie Desert Storm)
began. Timing dictated that Operation Desert Shield was over almost as soon as the cards arrived. In an article in the Myrtle Beach Air Star News, Topps spokesman Timm Boyle again mentions that approximately 5,400,00 cards were produced and that the entire allotment meant for the Air Force was returned to the base at Myrtle Beach unopened. This shipment accounted for approx. 1,500,000 cards. Boyle also mentioned that the production run was approx. 6,800 for each player (my math) or approx. 1/1,000th that of normal production."


If those quoted numbers are accurate, 5.4 million cards*1000 = total press run for 1991 Topps of 5.4 billion cards. 5.4 million / 792 = 6.8 million/card in 1991.

That seems plausible to me. We have found statements from Topps representatives in the early 1990s that were possibly exaggerations or outright falsehood. When they were engaged in a lawsuit concerning a George Bush card that made its way into hobby circulation, Topps claimed that all 1990 cards were printed at Duryea when we have evidence that they were subcontracted out to a plant in Rhode Island. It may seem like semantics but I wouldn't put it past them to underestimate total press run so as to make their cards look (a little) more scarce.

[JUrsaner]

Originally Posted by JUrsaner

Appreciate all the replies!

Haven't been able to focus on this for a little bit, but just added/updated a whole bunch of sets to the list. If anyone sees any sets where they can add info - don't be nervous to jump in. If anyone has sets you'd like to see added (for instance just added some of the early Upper Deck and Zenith) feel free to say that as well. Next step is hoping to add a bunch of misc. oddball sets

Kept the 1993 Finest Refractor at /241 for now, but have noticed the issue with that one as a non-numbered set for a long time. I'll revisit it later

Added another round of sets to the list.

A bunch of Topps oddball stuff including all the Topps Gallery of Champions sets & related Bronze/Pewter Dealer Premiums. Fascinating to see how these were listed/merged in the old SCD since it was its own 12-card set, a pewter premium related to purchases of Topps Tiffany (?) cases, and a Bronze premium related to sales of Topps Traded (?) cases. I know there a bunch of former dealers on here... would be interested to hear if anyone still collects these? Or even just the sales tiers needed to qualify for the premiums in order to estimate production numbers?

I also added some of the early Stadium Club years and a bookmark for each of the artists in the Topps 2020 Project, which I'm sure there are some people paying attention.

Added various "chase cards" from the 90s like Upper Deck Heroes and some misc. manufacturers like Action Packed

Hope everyone had a great MDW. Any input on production numbers or just any thoughts on how to improve the list and/or make it more useful are appreciated

[Bigdaddy]

No hard numbers to add to the thread, but I can give some memories that should provide a check on some of the trends.

1984 Donruss were advertised to be produced in lower numbers than the previous years. This 'scarcity' increased demand and they were harder to find in 1984 than Topps or Fleer. This seems to be reflected in your Donruss print runs numbers. After 1984, Donruss went back up in production, flooding the market by the late 80s.

For Fleer, production (supposedly) took a dip in 1988 after steady increases in the previous years.

Topps, well, they kept the presses running 24/7 all through the '80s, until they literally used all the cardboard in the western hemisphere in 1987.

Upper Deck's first print run in 1989 was initially thought to be 'limited', but like an Artesian well, they kept showing up on shelves. I have heard that they even specifically printed sheets of Griffey that year to make sure every living person on earth had a GJr RC.

All hearsay, I know.

[JUrsaner]

Originally Posted by Hooliganlv

I would love to know the Leaf print runs in the mid 80s. The pop report for an 87 Bo Jackson and 87 Barry Bonds in PSA 10 are only in the 90s.

In contrast, their 87 Topps Tiffany PSA 10s are in the 300s.

I'd also be interested in this

Slowed down on this but going to add those sets to the list so I remember to come back to it

[Hooliganlv]

Originally Posted by JUrsaner

I'd also be interested in this

Slowed down on this but going to add those sets to the list so I remember to come back to it

I saw someone post this in a FB comment. It’s not verified but at least something to go off of for 87 Leaf:

“I was looking to see what a 1987 Leaf case looked like, but all I could find was a 10 box case with 8 regular boxes and 2 Leaf boxes. Does anyone know if this is the only way they came? If so, that’s a 1:4 Leaf / Donruss ratio just in those cases alone. Then you have regular 20 box cases of Donruss on top of that. If you do a 10 box mixed for every 20 box regular then you are at a 1:15 ratio without taking in to account Racks and Cellos. If the ratio of 1:15 is close, which I think it is more like 1:50, then Leaf boxes are very undervalued in the current market.”

The ratio of submissions to PSA is 1:11.9. 9,222 Leaf vs 110,089 Donruss.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

The Donruss numbers are off. I uncovered some Donruss internal sales documents from 1990 and they talked about the sales figures and growth from year-to-year throughout the decade. While these aren't actual production numbers, I think it's safe to infer that as sales increased dramatically, so did production.

Despite popular hobby sentiment, 1984 Donruss was not short printed. It was Donruss' most successful year to date and, in fact, they did so well that they decided to branch out and enter the Canadian market. From 1985 onward, sales virtually doubled every year.

If Donruss was doing this well, Topps must have been cleaning up because they had a much larger market share.

I know I saved a copy of these documents. There's virtually no way I would have come across such things and not made some kind of digital copy for my files. It's just a matter of me finding them.

Arthur

[JUrsaner]

The decline in Donruss production figures (slight) in 1992 and (major) in 1994 were based on details in some memos / press releases that Insidethewrapper posted higher up in the thread.

Let me know if those jibe with what you remember from the internal documents (increased sales growth yr-yr could be due to price increases rather than volume?) and/or if you can find the copies of the docs

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

The Donruss numbers are off. I uncovered some Donruss internal sales documents from 1990 and they talked about the sales figures and growth from year-to-year throughout the decade. While these aren't actual production numbers, I think it's safe to infer that as sales increased dramatically, so did production.

Despite popular hobby sentiment, 1984 Donruss was not short printed. It was Donruss' most successful year to date and, in fact, they did so well that they decided to branch out and enter the Canadian market. From 1985 onward, sales virtually doubled every year.

If Donruss was doing this well, Topps must have been cleaning up because they had a much larger market share.

I know I saved a copy of these documents. There's virtually no way I would have come across such things and not made some kind of digital copy for my files. It's just a matter of me finding them.

Arthur

[Ngs428]

I have been lookin into some base parallel sets from 1980-1995. I have found the following, some of the print runs don't match the info in the OP.

https://www.tiffanycards.com/tiffany-cards has some good info. It logs actual sets with the serial numbers when they are sold.

Other info was from http://baseballcardpedia.com/index.php/

1984 Topps Tiffany base and traded: 7,000 (approx. 7,000 according to tiffanycards.com, 6,722 is the highest set number found)
1985 Topps Tiffany base and traded: 5,000 (5,000 according to tiffanycards.com, 5,000 is the highest set number found)
1986 Topps Tiffany base and traded: 5,000 (just over 5,000 according to tiffanycards.com, 5,125 is the highest set number found)
1987 Topps Tiffany base and traded: 30,000 (under 30,000 according to tiffanycards.com, 29,376 is the highest set number found)
1988 Topps Tiffany base and traded: 30,000 (just under 30,000 according to tiffanycards.com, 29,290 is the highest set number)
1989 Topps Tiffany base and traded: 15,000 (15,000 according to tiffanycards.com, 13,624 is the highest set number found)
1990 Topps Tiffany base and traded: 5,000 (under 5,000 according to tiffanycards.com, 4,315 is the highest set number found)
1991 Topps Tiffany base and traded: 4,000 (4,000 according to tiffanycards.com, 3,456 is the highest set number found)

1989 Bowman tiffany: 6,000 (6,096 is the highest set number found)
1990 Bowman tiffany: 6,000 (6,000 is the highest set number found)

1988 Score Glossy base: 5,000
1988 Score Glossy Traded: 3,000

1987 Fleer Glossy base and update: 75k-100k
1988 Fleer Glossy base and update: 40k-60k
1989 Fleer Glossy base (no update was made): 30k

1993 Topps Marlins Inaugural: 6,000
1993 Topps Rockies Inaugural: 10,000

1984 Fleer Update set: 12,000 unofficial (Not a parallel, but limited print run)
1984 Topps Nestle (Hand Cut): 5,000
1991 Topps Desert Shield: 6,313 unofficial
1993 Finest Refractors: 241
1993 Finest Jumbo (Partial Parallel #'s 84-116): 1,500
1993 Stadium Club First Day Issue: 2,000
1993 Stadium Club Members Only Factory Set: 12,000
1994 Stadium Club First Day Issue: 2,000
1994 Stadium Club Golden Rainbow (Gold Foil): ?
1994 Stadium Club Members Only Factory Set: 5,000
1994 Topps Spanish/Bilingual: 1,000 Factory Sets
1995 Stadium Club First Day Issue: 2,000?
1995 Stadium Club Members Only Factory Set: 4,000

[JUrsaner]

Thanks for posting -- looks like an incredible resource. I'll update the list. Been working on a lot of other sets for it, but haven't been updating it here

[dragonwagon9080]

I need help identifying this set #. I original thought it was 06722, but after a closer review and not finding any additional set above 6483, I doubt it is a 7. 06?22 - it has to be a 0, 1,2,3, or 4. It doesn't look like a 1,3, or 4 to me. So is it a 2 or a 0?

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ete-1920081063