Ryan and run support

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by jingram058

How many no-hitters did Ryan throw, 7? Who's next behind him? How many 1-hitters did Ryan throw? I don't know, just asking.

I actually just saw this somewhere the other day. Found a source after looking again and put the link below.

Koufax is next with 4 no-hitters and four other pitchers have 3 no-hitters (Cy Young, Larry Corcoran, Bob Feller, and Justin Verlander).

For Nolan Ryan and the other question you asked:

7 no-hitters
12 one-hitters
18 two-hitters

https://www.mlb.com/news/nolan-ryan-...tats-and-facts

[ClementeFanOh]

Bill- that's great information, thanks for looking it up. Be ready for some
posters to somehow downplay those results, and insist that Nolan Ryan
"isn't an all-time great". It takes all kinds, I guess... Trent King

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Bill- that's great information, thanks for looking it up. Be ready for some
posters to somehow downplay those results, and insist that Nolan Ryan
"isn't an all-time great". It takes all kinds, I guess... Trent King

I actually got kind of excited because someone on here asked a question that I actually knew the answer to.

I think I saw a pic with stats or a meme on FB recently that was talking about Nolan Ryan and his numbers and I went and looked them up recently.

I'm definitely not here to argue for/against Nolan Ryan and whether he is an all-time great or not. I just enjoy baseball and love learning new things about the history of it.

[jchcollins]

As a kid growing up in the late 1980's and early 90's - Nolan was probably my favorite player. He became wildly popular, even outside of baseball - after going to the Texas Rangers, and was also a man of humility and just a generally likeable guy. He still is today. I had all his books and Beckett covers, and remember my goal as a teenage collector being to get at least one card of him with the Mets so that I would have one of him on every team he played with - (the RC then was unthinkable...) I finally settled for a beater '71 Topps Ryan for Christmas one year and was thrilled with it.

I guess my problem with Ryan 30 years on isn't so much anything to do with him - but how many other great pitchers of that era are virtually forgotten anymore in his wake. Kids today who weren't even alive when Nolan threw his last pitch can quote 7 no-hitters and 5K+ strikeouts to you. But ask them who Steve Carlton was, and you will often get a blank stare. The same with Seaver, Palmer, Perry, Jenkins, Hunter, and others.

The problem to me seems to be do we expend effort to care only about the sexy things in pitching, (K's, no-no's...) or the things that actually win ball games? (ERA, ERA+, WHIP, BB/K %, W/L %...)

Sure I'm just as amazed as anyone at 7 no-hitters. That's freaking amazing. But at the end of the day those were just 7 ballgames, and not even playoff or WS ballgames. Nolan Ryan was no doubt a fantastic pitcher and deserving first ballot HOF'er, but seems to me with the lens of time that he was not "elite" per se in any of the categories which really win ball games. It's often cited that Nolan didn't get great run support. Ok, not saying that is not true - but in his 292 career losses - his ERA was over 5 in those games. It's true that his winning percentage is more akin to a Jim Kaat than an elite like a Mathewson or a Grove or a Seaver. Great pitchers lift even bad teams. Nolan despite his dominance never really seemed to do that if you look at his career on the whole. There is an argument today with the SABR crowd and all that pitchers should not be judged on wins and winning percentage - and that is a topic for another time. But ask yourself, why do the pitchers considered historically elite always have great winning percentages?

I will always love the guy, and I have a complete run of his Topps base cards. But I think the overwhelming number of walks just prevented him from ever really attaining that elite level in terms of ability to carry teams like that. Nolan was never quite able to get his BB under control the way that Koufax did.

It's true also at least from a hobby perspective - Nolan was not a big deal at all until the early 1990's when he went back to Texas. His '68 Topps RC when the price guides first began to come out in the late 70's / early 80's wasn't even on the radar; worth less than a dollar when a Mantle or Mays in the same set was selling for $5. Nolan was not an unknown quantity then, but a dominant starter who had already pitched 4 career no-hitters. But he clearly wasn't considered elite then. Why is that? In 1988, it was about a $200 card in NM condition. Only when he threw another no-hitter with the Rangers and when people began to realize the milestones he was about to smash through in terms of his career K's did that card really take off. By 1992 it was the hottest card arguably in the entire hobby - with even EX and less examples selling for over a grand. Today you will see Ryan RC's continue to outsell those of Tom Seaver - who in addition to being the better pitcher, also has the much tougher RC with a true SP card in the '67 Topps high number series. Life isn't always fair.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Pitchers who pitched almost as long as Ryan and had similar ERA+

Tommy John -26 years & 111 ERA+
Jim Kaat-25 years & 108 ERA+
Charlie Hough-25 years & 106 ERA+
Dennis Martinez-23 years & 106 ERA+

Its not phenomenal, its borderline HOF worthy. Before anyone misinterprets what I'm saying, I'm not saying Ryan is borderline HOF but his ERA+ is.

Just as a comparison
Tom Seaver-20 years & 127 ERA+

You list guys who had the years, but nowhere near the innings pitched.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

You list guys who had the years, but nowhere near the innings pitched.

In G1911's original post, his point was that Ryan did it over 27 years. No mention was made of innings.

But OK, Phil Niekro had more innings pitched than Ryan 5404 to 5386, Niekro had a higher ERA+ than Ryan 115 to 112. I've never seen anyone claim Niekro was an all time great.

[ClementeFanOh]

Jim65- the mania continues, eh? My handy dandy internet research reveals
that fifty-eight players have made HOF on first ballot. That's 58 out of
thousands upon thousands of players. Like it or not, Nolan Ryan is one of
those and he IS an "all time great". Doesn't mean he's the greatest, but "all
time great" definitely fits. You, sir, "doth protest too much".

I'll admit you've hooked me. Your factual argument is a non starter, so the
only reason you keep dinging Ryan is some sort of dislike. Did he tune up
your favorite player or team? Bean you during fantasy camp? You a Robin
Ventura fan? At this point, an explanation of your crusade is more
compelling than a failed argument. How'd he hurt you?

Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

In G1911's original post, his point was that Ryan did it over 27 years. No mention was made of innings.

But OK, Phil Niekro had more innings pitched than Ryan 5404 to 5386, Niekro had a higher ERA+ than Ryan 115 to 112. I've never seen anyone claim Niekro was an all time great.

I think my point was that he was effective for an absurdly long career. Years, innings, by any definition Ryan had the or one of the longest pitching careers in all of baseball history. If you want to get technical you couldn’t name a single one who matched 27 years. Maybe that’s a sign of being extraordinary, doing something no one else has.

Phil Niekro had a phenomenal (remarkable, extraordinary) career too, with a very unusual trajectory and path. His remarkable career is probably why he is in the Hall of Fame and being remarked upon. If he did not have a phenomenal career, then almost no one did. Who are we to remark on if even these guys are not remarkable? If these are not extraordinary careers, I’m hard pressed to think of any that are.

In my opinion Nolan Ryan is probably the most overrated starting pitcher in the entirety of baseball history. But he still had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Jim65- the mania continues, eh? My handy dandy internet research reveals
that fifty-eight players have made HOF on first ballot. That's 58 out of
thousands upon thousands of players. Like it or not, Nolan Ryan is one of
those and he IS an "all time great". Doesn't mean he's the greatest, but "all
time great" definitely fits. You, sir, "doth protest too much".

I'll admit you've hooked me. Your factual argument is a non starter, so the
only reason you keep dinging Ryan is some sort of dislike. Did he tune up
your favorite player or team? Bean you during fantasy camp? You a Robin
Ventura fan? At this point, an explanation of your crusade is more
compelling than a failed argument. How'd he hurt you?

Trent King

You're right, I hate Nolan Ryan. He's the greatest pitcher who ever lived. Feel better?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think my point was that he was effective for an absurdly long career. Years, innings, by any definition Ryan had the or one of the longest pitching careers in all of baseball history. If you want to get technical you couldn’t name a single one who matched 27 years. Maybe that’s a sign of being extraordinary, doing something no one else has.

Phil Niekro had a phenomenal (remarkable, extraordinary) career too, with a very unusual trajectory and path. His remarkable career is probably why he is in the Hall of Fame and being remarked upon. If he did not have a phenomenal career, then almost no one did. Who are we to remark on if even these guys are not remarkable? If these are not extraordinary careers, I’m hard pressed to think of any that are.

In my opinion Nolan Ryan is probably the most overrated starting pitcher in the entirety of baseball history. But he still had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

My post wasn't a jab at Niekro, Niekro was better at preventing runs than Ryan, and he wasn't a 1st ballot HOFer.

For a guy who had all those strikeouts, no-hitters, fewest hits per 9 innings, etc, Ryan should have been better at preventing runs than he was.

[ClementeFanOh]

Jim65- I feel better knowing you just punted. Trent King

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Jim65- I feel better knowing you just punted. Trent King

Because dealing with condescending people is tiresome . You win, go brag to your friends. You da man.

[ClementeFanOh]

Jim- well, you'd know tiresome for sure, so you've got that going for you.

Trent King

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Jim- well, you'd know tiresome for sure, so you've got that going for you.

Trent King

So, stop responding to my posts. Easy solution.

[ClementeFanOh]

Jim- nah, too easy on you. Maybe you give it a rest instead? Work on your
Gregg Jefferies for HOF proposal? Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

My post wasn't a jab at Niekro, Niekro was better at preventing runs than Ryan, and he wasn't a 1st ballot HOFer.

For a guy who had all those strikeouts, no-hitters, fewest hits per 9 innings, etc, Ryan should have been better at preventing runs than he was.

I agree. His walks and inability to control the ball well reduced his effectiveness. If he had control he might have been the greatest pitcher ever. I don’t think that’s a reasonable baseline to judge on though - ‘he could have been better’. So could everyone. I never said he was perfect. He had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Jim- nah, too easy on you. Maybe you give it a rest instead? Work on your
Gregg Jefferies for HOF proposal? Trent King

Is being a condescending prick your nature or are you trying real hard. Either way, I'm done with you.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree. His walks and inability to control the ball well reduced his effectiveness. If he had control he might have been the greatest pitcher ever. I don’t think that’s a reasonable baseline to judge on though - ‘he could have been better’. So could everyone. I never said he was perfect. He had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

Of course everyone could be better, but Ryan should have been better. With his stuff and desire, he should have been a Top 5 all time pitcher.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Of course everyone could be better, but Ryan should have been better. With his stuff and desire, he should have been a Top 5 all time pitcher.

And yet he ended up with a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary career.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by g1911

and yet he ended up with a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary career.

lol ok

[ClementeFanOh]

Why Jim65- you're not being a "condescending jerk" now, are you? Glass
houses, you know...

Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

lol ok

Lol. Lmao.