T211 Red Sun prices

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

I know these hardly ever come up for sale, but I was curious to know how much these are going for nowadays?

Good, Very Good, Excellent?

[Archive]

Posted By: bruce Dorskind

T 211 Red Sun Tobacco cards are quite rare, and like many minor league issues,
their scarcity is not reflected in the value because there are only a small
sampling of collectors whose interest is focused on this issue.

SGC has graded only 120 cards and PSA has graded 21 Red Sun Cards.
The highest recorded grade is SGC 80 and PSA 6.

Only 3 SGC examples received this rather remarkable grade and PSA has
graded two cards in condition 6.

There has been limited activity in public auctions. In December 2006
two SGC cards graded 40 and 30 traded on E Bay at prices in the $450-490 range
In 2005 a high profile Goodwin Auction brought over $1200 for an SGC 30 example.

In late 2005, we obtained one of the three known SGC 80 cards in a private
transaction. We currently have said card insured for $2750.00

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

We agree with Bruce, et al., althoughh there is only one of "us." Oh well.

P.S. We will also add that there are a few lower-grade examples of same in existence.

[Archive]

Posted By: James Feagin

I picked up a SGC 40 T211 Sid Smith a couple months back for $410. Hope that helps a bit. Huggins and Scott has a SGC 50 up in their/our next auction.

James

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Average gd-vg ones will usually be in the $300-$400 range and there are a few folks collecting the set. If it's one they need you can add another $100 or so....higher grade ones will go for siginificantly more. I would guess a nice EX one could be in the $700-$900 range...but personally I haven't seen too many go that high...though I certainly could have missed some sales...

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

The supply of T211s and, maybe more so T209s, seem to have dried up.

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Thanks for all the great info guys, I appreciate it. I don't track prices/auctions as fervently as others on the board, so I'm not always up to date on current prices. I remember T211's being $100, 150, 200 about two years ago and I'm not surprised by the price jump as they are both scarce and visually appealing. I've thought about picking up an example or two in the distant future to go along with my T210's, which is why I was curious.

Jay-

I can't speak for the major auctions, but as far as EBay goes I think your right on the money. T211's don't even come up occasionally anymore and neither do their T226 boxing counterparts. It's seems to be the same thing with T209's, especially the second series. Popularity is playing a big role for both these issues as so many collectors are working on sets. Similar to what's been going on with T210's. They're all equally great sets, so climbing prices are probably long overdue.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Koteles

If they are available, who is putting the sets together? The backs on Red SUn are neat, but the cards are ugly. But this is why there are different collectors for everything.

Even way back when Sloate, Verkman, Festberg, Wheat, Knouse...etc were around or SCD, you rarely ever seen a Red Sun. I guess iam not understanding the popularity here.

I hope you get some and your agreed price points.

[Archive]

Posted By: Todd Schultz

vg/ex T211s should sell for at least $600--I would not take that for mine.

I also believe T209s, while scarce themselves, are found noticeably more often than T211s.

BTW, I don't think they're ugly at all.

[Archive]

Posted By: bruce Dorskind

In comments with the regard to the relative rarity of the T 211 Red Sun
Tobacco cards, two Board Members noted that they were
aware of several collectors who were collecting the set.

We find this observation to be questionable since neither SGC nor PSA
have a single registered set collector for T 211 Red Sun Set.

Within the past 16 months there have only been six public auctions
(Vintage Card Prices.com) where a Red Sun has traded. It is worth noting
that the Victory cards, often identified as the rarest tobacco issue (excluding
Fan Cigarettes) had four examples traded in public auctions.

Whilst PSA have graded a mere six examples from the rare Red Sun Series,
SGC has graded 121 examples. There are a plethora of other type cards
where far fewer examples have been graded which have still attracted
collectors to register their sets.

Accordingly, we would like to know which collectors are puting sets
together, why they have not registerd said sets and if that information
is not available the basis for the comments that several collectors are
putting together sets.

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Dan is correct in that all my years in the business I have had only a handful of Red Suns, and I never gave it much thought. But now that it has been brought up, they are pretty darn rare. Problem is, if I had one in 1995, I probably got $25 for it. We didn't pay as much attention to cards like T211 back then, as they were more just an offbeat issue that very few people cared about. It just shows you another way the hobby has changed.

[Archive]

Posted By: scott brockelman

just because they are not on any registry is irrelavant, that does not mean there are not highly competitive collectors chasing these elusive cards. There are many very tough and desirable sets owned by collectors on this board that are not on "the registry".

When I gave up on the Red Suns I had 30 different, It was becoming very difficult to acquire more so I succumbed to greed and sold out.

Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

I picked up a T211 Seabaugh about ten years ago at a show from a guy who had mostly shiney stuff, but a handful of Goudeys and this card in the back corner of his case. I did not get the impression he knew what it was. I would guess it was just thrown in with a handful of other older cards he bought once and had been sitting on for a while.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I have one T211. I regret passing on a chance at buying half a dozen at a good price several years ago. All I have is Welf, Nashville. Seems T210s distracted me after I got one T211 as a type card.

Instead of asking why T211 collectors haven't registered their sets, can we ask why anyone should register a set?? I'm a bit touchy about who knows I collect, and what they know. Registering somewhere indicating an interest in the cards could drive up prices. So what's the upside on this registering thing???

Realistically, Red Suns are undervalued if compared to T206s... T206 collectors vastly outnumber folks after even one T211. So that demand is what disparately drives the prices of T206s beyond what the normal price differential should be if only supply were considered. At least that is my non-expert, lay, fact-less opinion.

[Archive]

Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Frank

We totally disagree with your philosphy.

As you well know, price especially in this hobby, is a function of supply and demand.

One of our objectives as a collector of the rare materials is to bring more examples,
particularly the best known examples extant, to market. The most efficient way to
accomplish this objective is to alert the potential, albeit unknown, seller that he
could realize a very high price for his items.

Our guess is that as a result of this thread, the price of Red Suns, particularly higher
grade examples wll rise. And that is a good thing because the higher the prices
the more likely it is that there will be a seller.

As Barry Sloate pointed out, even if he had a Red Sun in the early 1980's why would
he recall the sale of a $25.00 card.

We aggressively pursue a plethora of rare issues and do all we can to create buzz
in the marketplace with the hope that collectors will test the market and sell or auction
their super rare top condition items.



Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Archive]

Posted By: Zach Rice

I own only one T211, too. I'd love to own more but with the prices they bring even in poor condition and their lack of availability, I don’t think I’d be making much progress any time soon.


I agree with Jay when he stated that both T209s and T211s have dried up. At the time I purchased my T211 there were at least two others with BINS in people's eBay stores. I feel very fortunate to have put together a grouping of 30 T209-2s but I haven't added a new one to my collection in over a month.

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

We would like to know how many sets Bruce has on the various card grading registries. Whilst we have viewed a cadre of sets listed by a plethora of well known collectors such as Don Louchios, Marshall Fogel, Charles Merkel, extant, we cannot locate any listings by Mssr. Dorskind.

Since it is clearly important to pay as much as possible for the hallowed pieces of cardboard of our childhoods', can we see some examples of your collection. Surely, the prices would rise just by the rest of us seeing your treasured items.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff O

Bruce,

Earlier in this thread you wrote:

"Accordingly, we would like to know which collectors are puting sets
together, why they have not registerd said sets and if that information
is not available the basis for the comments that several collectors are
putting together sets."

I guess my question is, how is any of this any of your business? I understand that you (plural) apparently collect this type of material, so you (plural) probably have an interest in locating additional examples. I'm just not sure why you (plural) feel like posters need to identify others by name, who may wish to remain private in their collecting pursuits. I also don't see how it's any of your (plural) business on why anyone decides to either register or not register their stuff.

Jeff Obermeyer
America's Toughest Seattle Hockey Wantlist

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Not to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I posted this thread to simply to inquire about prices on an interesting issue, not create a debate about set registries, market speculation, etc. I like to believe, perhaps innocently, that this is still a hobby. I'm not naive enough to believe that money doesn't play a role in it, but I'm tired of treating this hobby like an F***ing stock exchange.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I'm with you Adam. And I think most people do treat it like a hobby.

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I don't mind being disagreed with.... sometimes I don't agree with myself.


But please tell me why folks do this set registry thing...

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

Frank--I think it lets people compete in areas where there would be no competition without grades. The vast majority of registry sets are not difficult to complete. So, the grading companies, mostly PSA, have come up with an interesting marketing ploy to get people to compete for an aggregate number rather than just for completeness. They've thrown the chum in the water and the fish are swarming. It's an ego thing. I'm not immune--I have a few registry sets of newer material but the vast majority of my collection is unslabbed.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- I think it's just an example of different hobby philosophies. The oldtimers collect for fun, and a little profit along the way never hurts. The set registry people are in it purely for the competition, and while they all say they are having fun, they have a lot more fun being #1 than #2, and even less fun being #3 or #4.

It's really the oldtime way to collect vs. the 21st century way to collect! Or if you prefer, the haves vs. the have-nots (or the have-some)

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Why is it such a difficult concept for some people to understand? This isn't quantum physics: certain collectors want to have the best set of a certain issue that exists. With the set registry, the best graded sets are easily comparable. The more significant question is: why do seemingly intelligent people repeatedly claim that they don't understand the rationale behind the set registry?

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I fully understand the rationale, just isn't my cup of tea. But clearly there is a need for it, as it has gained a huge following and a significant piece of the market. I just think it is one of those hot button issues that causes debate every time it is brought up on the board.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

Jeff--I hear what you're saying but the whole registry comparison process is somewhat artificial. Let me give you an example. Consider two 1948 Leaf boxing sets. One set has a grade of 7.4 but lacks a Graziano, the Wagner of boxing cards. The other has an a grade of 7.3 but has a Graziano. Which is the best set? In my mind the second is the best set, no question. However, if these were the only two registry sets listed the first would be listed as the current finest.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- aren't registry sets supposed to be weighted based on rarities?

If I have 5 T206 commons that grade PSA 8, and you only have a Wagner that grades PSA 1, do I have the better set?

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Whilst (sorry) I totally understand the rationale of the set registry, I am surprised by the large number of collectors I run across who use the registry as the definitive source for how many sets of a certain issue are "out there."

This example is totally anecdotal, but I completed a 1952 Num-Num set about 10 years ago. Granted, this isn't a T-205, but it's not 1987 Topps, either. Because of the set's Bob Kennedy card -- a card that's really underappreciated in terms of rarity -- my guess is that there aren't many complete sets. But I've never considered having the set graded, let alone registering it. So by what percentage am I skewing the population number regarding complete sets?

My guess is that there are numerous examples like this, albeit not as many when the topic is T211s. But to automatically assume that a set registry or population number is the end-all source is a mistake, IMHO.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

Barry--Many sets in the registry have no weighting. The grade is just the sum of all your grades divided by the number of cards in the set. In the example I gave a Graziano is worth no more (registry wise) than a Willie Pep.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

The registry can only go with the information it has. It is still relatively new, so ten years down the road the information will probably be more accurate. I'm sure new cards are being added each week as more get graded.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, you've obviously taken an extreme example: a set where there is no weight given to rarer cards. Regardless, I don't think your example is what the Registry nay-sayers are talking about. Basically, anyone who collects differently than they do is met with puzzled looks, scratched heads and seeming shock that anyone can do things differently than they do.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- if that is true, and I am pretty sure that HOfers are weighted more than commons, then using my example of the 5 T206 commons vs. the Wagner, at any given moment I would gladly trade my better set for your worse set. That's an odd way of looking at it.

If I have a Cobb that grades 7 and a common that grades 8, and you have a Cobb that grades 8 and a common that grades 7, you mean to say we are tied on the registry?

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Bruce- I read your statement this morning:

"In comments with the regard to the relative rarity of the T 211 Red Sun
Tobacco cards, two Board Members noted that they were
aware of several collectors who were collecting the set.

We find this observation to be questionable since neither SGC nor PSA
have a single registered set collector for T 211 Red Sun Set."


I am not sure what you find questionable about what I said. Do you find me questionable, or just what I said I know? Do you really think the registry is what all collecting should be graded (pun intended) by? I just came back from seeing a collection of high grade, medium grade, and lower grade cards. Nineteenth century through 21st with a concentration on pre-war. I only saw baseball because I only had 5 hours or so to spend there. I didn't even know this person had a T211 set (minus 1-2) until today. He showed me a small handful of slabbed cards and said that's all he had and he could care less about grading. There are far more collectors like that than I think any of us really know. ...You can collect your way and I'll collect mine but please don't find me questionable when I state I know something. I am always prepared to back it up. (though I wouldn't divulge the names in public).....I hope you understand what I am saying.....thanks much

edited to say the T211's would probably grade 3-6+ and the total collection was thousands of cards and is almost all e-sets, t-sets etc.....

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, interesting point. I have some sets on the registry but also collect other sets that I have not bothered to enter on the registry despite collecting graded versions of them. I guess I don't put them on because the cards are very slow to come by...and while I expect to complete the set someday it won't be anytime in the future - and the sets are rare enough that very few registered sets even exist. I guess to each his own -- even within the registry set guys.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

Barry-Some sets are weighted, like T206, and others, like '48 Leaf boxing, are not.

[Archive]

Posted By: RC McKenzie

T211's don't pop up very often on ebay, but they do show up occasionally, about as often as e105 from what I've seen. I've never bought one because they are expensive and most of the players are unknown to me, Sid Smith may be considered a star along with Bay, relative to the other players in the issue. The boxers series has some pretty famous boxers, but they don't sell cheap when they show up. Would be fun to know what 2 cards are missing from the fellows set. regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

We find this analogous to 3rd grade. Some kids would show off their new baseball gloves at school the next week. Some would keep them until they needed them. Same thing here, "not that there's anything wrong with it," either way.

[Archive]

Posted By: RC McKenzie

I know I like to look on sgc at the registries of other collectors of sets I collect. It's fun to see folks list what cards they have of rare sets on sgc. I will probably never list anything on there just because sgc is in NJ and I don't like sending my cards out in the mail for folks to grade my cards unless I am going to sell them, and even then it's a hassle. If I lived in NJ, I'd probably drive over there and drop off a bunch of cards b/c their holders protect cards better than a top loader.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I think people's personalities dictate to a large degree how they collect. I do not consider myself a particularly competitive person. When I was an active collector, I always tried to get the rarest historical pieces I could, but I always knew some people had the means to have a better collection than me, and others on a tighter budget would probably not be able to afford what I had. I kind of knew it went with the territory. So if I were collecting today I doubt I would have much interest in the registry.

On the other hand, some people are fiercely competitive and need to be the best at everything. So I suspect they would feel the same way about their collections.

And as Jeff said, some sets interest him simply because they are rare, and others because it's challenging to try and assemble the best one possible.

So what is my point? I have no idea

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave Hornish

Barry:

Just curious-do you still have a collection at all or are you solely a dealer/auctioneer? You seem so passionate about the hobby I can't believe you didn't keep at least a few goodies. I guess in a way an auctioneer is a short term collector?

Dave

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Yes- I've kept a few rare display pieces, primarily from the 1860's and 70's, mostly photographs and color lithographs, and some rare books, including some from the 1830's that are the first in America to depict baseball.

I do not, however, have any cards other than my inventory. I consider that my rotating collection. I enjoy them for the short time I own them, but they all end up with the highest bidder.

[Archive]

Posted By: bruce Dorskind

In response to a number of comments and questions


1. We are interested in Set Registry for three reasons:

(A) Rarity- whilst it is not a perfect tool to assess rarity, it is as accurate a tool as is available.

No one tracks unregistered and/ungraded cards and there is large discrepancy about condition
with regard to cards that have not been graded by a professional service.

As a collector, one is likely to decide whether or not to collect a particular issue or card based
on a number of factors. Two of those factors would be the relative availability of the card
in the desired condition. The population report, the pricing reports and the set registry reports
are tools which will provide a collector with the desired information

(B) We assume that if there are no collectors with a registry set that the cards and/or the set may be
very rare

C) We like to know who has what ..that information provides us with market intlligence which we will
attempt to use for competitive advantage as we bid in auctions, purchase privately or bid on E-Bay.
We certainly study every registered "target set." We have contacted a number of collectors with sets where
we had an interest. On a number of occasions we were able to work out favorable transactions
with said collectors.

Any intelligence we can gather can prove valuable. For three years we monitored the 2nd-4th runner ups
on more than 1000 E Bay auctions. We have recorded this information, identified the collectors/dealers
and later used the information to our advantage.

Finally, we do not post any sets on the set registry because we don't collect sets.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

In regards to the registry I agree with Leon. Most cards arent accounted for on the set registries. It would be ridiculous to assume that just because a set isnt acounted for on a registry that its not being pursued by collectors.
When you compare the relative scarcity of T211, and others like it(T215,T216) to T206 ofcourse the price of T206's will appear inflated. But it's difficult to collect these more obscure sets so demand goes down. E106 ive felt was undervalued due to its relative scarcity to other E1 sets. Its been increasing as of late though. But when dealing with minor league players, no matter how scarce or beautiful, the set will be lacking in name recognition. If T211 had a Weaver, a Chick Gandil, or a couple HOF's it would be very highly prized. Its unique and colorful back grabs your attention, but it would need some name recognition to make it a top tier set.

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thank you Jay, Bruce, Barry....

I think I now understand it. I've never seen a registry, I'm guessing it is on the net somewhere. It seems a very clever marketing scheme, only way I could get some of my stuff on there would be to get it slabbed.

And without maligning registry collectors, I see it as a new way to competitively collect, one that isn't attractive to old style collectors.

Bruce, I can see that some of the high profile registry collectors tip their hands as to what they'd be after, or not, by registering that stuff... Just don't understand why you started with a 1. if all that was to follow was A B C...

I guess I should try to find registry stuff on a site somewhere someday to fully understand it. Can anyone go look at the stuff, or do you need a password, membership number or some such?

Frank.

[Archive]

Posted By: Todd Schultz

navigate from here:

http://www.psacard.com/set_registry/

[Archive]

Posted By: RC McKenzie

Judge Wakefield,

You don't need a password to look at the registered sets. Go to sgc.com and click on the 'registered sets' link. There are some amazing collections on there. Most don't have photos, but it's a good place to see what's out there. best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

The registry is not only about competition. I put my E93 set up there several years ago with the hope of connecting with other E93 collectors and that is exactly what happened. Before I even knew about this board, I met other caramel collectors through my set and e-mail being on the registry. Being that I was trying to put together a high-grade set, it also enabled me to learn about more cards too. Often if people want to sell a high-grade card, they will look to see who is collecting that set on the registry and offer them the card. I was offered several nice E93s as a result of being visible in that way. The presumptions about competition, while sometimes accurate, are a bit knee-jerk in my opinion since that is certainly not always the case. There are many more low and mid-grade sets on the registry than there are high-grade. It is just that you all take note of the high-grade sets.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Gentlemen,

Thank you. I think I understand the registry thing much better. Even went to it and looked at it a bit.

It still seems like a blatant way of hyping slabbing to me...


But, I can see that if I had a set or near set graded and registered, then others who collected or had graded stuff could see where I was, and they might contact me offering to fill gaps I had, or offering upgrades. And that would be a pretty good deal. Now, for me, I find myself searching for the few cards I'm after... I'd love to have folks seeing my desires and contacting me with offers. So I truly see a real upside to the Registry process.

I cannot see myself ever using it. But I see why folks who liked slabbed cards, or only high grade slabbed cards, why those folks would like it.

And without me having asked you folks, and without you guys having patience to answer what seems obvious to you, I'd still not understand. So thank you. Notwithstanding my old biases, even I'm educable.

[Archive]

Posted By: robert a

Jim B.

You have a knack for bringing out the positive aspects.
I've personally never been involved with a set registry, but you're living proof that not everyone who is involved is overly competitive or trying to hype their cards, etc.

Rob

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

There are certainly some positives associated with the set registry, as Jim B. has clearly pointed out.

The out of control wild prices that certain cards bring, however, when two or more high grade collectors set preposterously high snipes, may not be one of them.