PSA/SGC Waiting Lines At 2019 National

[Johnny630]

Who else will be paying close attention to this year at the National.

I’m going to say the lines will be longer then ever.

Also one question to all...Has any card doctor ever been convicted or charged with a crime ?? Not talking civilly talking criminal.....if there are no consequences for their actions what’s going to stop them or limit their attempts

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Who else will be paying close attention to this year at the National.

I’m going to say the lines will be longer then ever.

Also one question to all...Has any card doctor ever been convicted or charged with a crime ?? Not talking civilly talking criminal.....if there are no consequences for their actions what’s going to stop them or limit their attempts

Mastro and Allen.

[Johnny630]

Only Two ?? Ugh

Pretty good Odds for the card doctors

[Kenny Cole]

Mark Theotickos and John Rogers too, although Rogers was mostly a forger and seller of fake items. William Boehm got 2 years probation for being part of the Mastro scam machine.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mastro and Allen.

If all they did was doctor cards they never would have been prosecuted

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If all they did was doctor cards they never would have been prosecuted

Minor stuff, eh

[oldjudge]

Do you think I'm wrong?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Do you think I'm wrong?

No. But I think it's easier to prove nowadays or at least the part of it that left a paper trail. If Brent just dances away after paying some of the money back, I'd be surprised, though I've been surprised before.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Who else will be paying close attention to this year at the National.

I’m going to say the lines will be longer then ever.

Also one question to all...Has any card doctor ever been convicted or charged with a crime ?? Not talking civilly talking criminal.....if there are no consequences for their actions what’s going to stop them or limit their attempts

In some collecting areas (Art, Books,etc) restoration and conservation are totally acceptable so unless there is alaw specifically saying doctoring baseball cards is illegal, I can't see why any Prosecutor would even bother trying to convict one of these guys.

[Leon]

It isn't illegal to trim a card.
But if you do it over and over and/or say you didn't do it, or send it in to be graded as if nothing happened, it can be criminal. I think a pattern of deceit can easily be shown in how these cards went from one grade to other grades. And then resold to unsuspecting buyers. The fact the TPG didn't catch it is somewhat beside the point.

There will be long lines at the TPG tables at the National. Just like usual is my guess.

Originally Posted by Jim65

In some collecting areas (Art, Books,etc) restoration and conservation are totally acceptable so unless there is alaw specifically saying doctoring baseball cards is illegal, I can't see why any Prosecutor would even bother trying to convict one of these guys.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Leon

It isn't illegal to trim a card.
But if you do it over and over and/or say you didn't do it, or send it in to be graded as if nothing happened, it can be criminal. I think a pattern of deceit can easily be shown in how these cards went from one grade to other grades. And then resold to unsuspecting buyers. The fact the TPG didn't catch it is somewhat beside the point.

There will be long lines at the TPG tables at the National. Just like usual is my guess.

Understood but how do you convince a jury that altering a card is wrong when with other collectables, like paintings and books, its totally acceptable ?

[Leon]

If those art restorations aren't disclosed, and they are known about, they are still fraudulent. (in my opinion)

Originally Posted by Jim65

Understood but how do you convince a jury that altering a card is wrong when with other collectables, like paintings and books, its totally acceptable ?

[D.P.Johnson]

I imagine it won't be long before some auction house uses altered cards as an asset:

"Here we have the hobby's finest example of this item in existence. Professionally restored by world renowned conservator J. Moser, Inc."

Blah, Blah, Blah....

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Understood but how do you convince a jury that altering a card is wrong when with other collectables, like paintings and books, its totally acceptable ?

Not all of your behaviors have to be criminal in order for you to be a criminal. I'm sure juries can understand that.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Not all of your behaviors have to be criminal in order for you to be a criminal. I'm sure juries can understand that.

Way back, there was a guy advertising "officially government authorized engraved portraits of the father of our country George Washington Only $1"

What he sent was a postage stamp with a Washington portrait stuck to a cardboard frame.

He did time.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Not all of your behaviors have to be criminal in order for you to be a criminal. I'm sure juries can understand that.

Not sure why everyone jumps to criminal court about what we can prove or wont prove or wont happen or will happen . Civil court is much easier then criminal court. Go ask O.J.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Leon

It isn't illegal to trim a card.
But if you do it over and over and/or say you didn't do it, or send it in to be graded as if nothing happened, it can be criminal. I think a pattern of deceit can easily be shown in how these cards went from one grade to other grades. And then resold to unsuspecting buyers. The fact the TPG didn't catch it is somewhat beside the point.

I have only submitted cards for grading once, maybe twice, in all my years, and both times was with SGC because they were at the show I attended and PSA wasn't. I don't recollect everything on the submission form, but definitely don't remember any specific question or inquiry asking if I knew or suspected the card(s) were altered or doctored or if I had done such alterations or doctoring myself. I would assume the PSA and BGS submission forms are similarly missing such inquires as well. The point is, the TPGs don't ask. And without such a specific inquiry, exactly what law or rule does a card doctorer break in submitting cards for grading? Isn't one of the purposes that people submit cards to TPGs for to determine not just their grade, but also their validity and authenticity?

The TPGs advertise that they are experts in reviewing and grading cards, and determining the validity and authenticity of those same cards, and charge for that service. And then base their charge on the underlying value of the cards themselves, so they already start out with an intrinsic bias to have cards they review and grade get the highest grades, and therefore values, possible. They make more money that way! And the grading has led to the phenomenon known as the "Registry", specifically in regards to PSA graded cards, and has caused prices for such highly graded PSA examples of cards to fetch some ridiculous prices by high end collectors merely to get a slight bump in their overall registry set grade. And then you have all the dealers who exacerbate the problem by jumping on the bandwagon using the old "all boats rise with the tide" mentality, and figure that if a high end example of a certain card they are selling in a lower grade jumps in price, then all the lower grades of that same card, and specifically the one they were selling, should see increases in asking prices also.

The bottom line is that the TPGs grade these cards and do so by giving their "opinions", not a 100% concrete guarantee that they are right and always accurate. And on top of that, each of the major TPGs tend to have their own grading rules, biases and idiosyncrasies. Add to that the fact that there is also a lot of discord among collectors as to exactly what is and isn't allowable as to alterations and doctoring and suddenly that threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt" may not be so easy to obtain. And if you throw in comparisons to other hobbies and collecting activities like comic books or the art world where restorations and conservation are allowed, it can muddy the waters even more. In the case of art work that is restored, the piece is still authentic and one of a kind, while a forgery of that same piece is a fake. In the case of cards, there are typically many more than just one single example of a card existing, but even if doctored, altered, conserved, or whatever you want to call it, the card is still authentic and has some value to someone. In those cases the grade is what gives a particular card a higher deemed value due to its condition rarity, not necessarily its actual existence rarity.

In trying to convict a card doctorer of a criminal act you will likely need to be able to bring in, and prove, an overall conspiracy among the card doctorers, TPGs and dealers all working in conjunction and knowledge of what each of them are doing in regards to taking advantage of the collecting public. The fact that there is not a single, agreed upon and followed grading standard and no oversight or peer review of the various TPG entities does not help the argument against them. The dealers can claim they merely took consignments from doctorers and relied upon the grades by the TPGs as to the vaildity and authenticity of the cards they were selling. They were not paid to authenticate the cards and merely act as a vehicle for their sale. The TPGs will say they reviewed the cards submitted and subjected them to their own internal grading standards, and issued their grades (opinions) accordingly, and didn't necessarily detect anything to make them think a particular card was altered/restored. And the card doctorers will merely try to claim they submitted cards for upgrades and that even if they did do some alterations/restoration, they rely upon the TPGs to determine what grade they felt the cards should be at and what, if any, restoration/alteration activities were found and detected that would note the card is not authentic. Kind of like a "don't ask, don't tell, mentality where the parties involved just go about what they normally do and don't ask or tell anyone else what they are doing or what they suspect. None of them want to rock the boat and they all want to continue making money.

Now if there were some type of nationally recognized group, independent of the TPGs, that set down the standards for grading and exactly what was and wasn't allowed, including alterations and restorations, you'd get better results. Such an independent group would basically dictate to the TPGS what they should use as standards and so on, and then license and periodically test the TPGS to make sure they were upholding the standards and so on. Then and only then would you begin to have some conformity in the grading and valuation of cards. Right now, PSA can do what they please, within reason. So can SGC and BGS in calling the shots on their grading.

All these before and after scans of cards the Blowout forum guys are finding are absolutely fantastic, but are they really more than coincidental? I know, I know, there are so many of them that one has to believe it has gone beyond a mere coincidence and I for one am fairly certain it isn't a complete coincidence either. But even after listing all the suspected cards that may potentially have been altered, there is a strong possibility that many of them were not actually altered. So what happens when people start pointing out the ones that weren't altered and using that as evidence that these were not all doctored cards being submitted unknowingly? And even the scans being shown are merely scans. We've all had occasions to question scans and what does and doesn't show up, etc., etc. It can be argued that scans are not always perfect and a completely reliable source for before and after comparisons, unless maybe the before and after scans can be shown to have been taken using the exact same scanner and with the exact same settings.
But how do you prove that? The scans may point out some of the similarities and differences between cards shown, but if the marks and such are on certain cards, who is to say there aren't also similar marks on others of that same card. What if a card doctorer were to bring in other examples of similar, say ungraded cards, with similar markings and such to the ones the BO guys are using to show what they believe to be before and after pictures of the same card. Let's face it, if the card doctorers are that good that they can remove things to improve a particular card, what is to stop them from adding things to another card to make it look like another one they had doctored? Of course it may not be possible with some of the really, really rare cards, but what about say a T-206 Cobb with a red background? I'm betting the doctors could find a different example to work their magic and make another one look like it may have been the one the BO guys are saying was actually resubmitted. And if it was a really rare card where the doctors couldn't easily find another example, they could bring in the argument of the Gretzky-Wagner card that not only did the alteration not devalue the card and damage the owner, but that it had entirely the opposite effect and the value of that card was significantly improved. All this may make it extremely difficult to convict anyone criminally.

And the fact that everything is interrelated among the parties involved does not make the TPGs not catching these alterations and restorations beside the point. That the TPGs each have their own internal grading standards highlights that there is no standard set of guidelines among the TPGs, and therefore the collecting community as well. And because there are no set guidelines and agreement among all the card hobby community, how do you get a group of peers from all walks of life to convict someone of something that the specific community they operate in can't agree upon 100%?

Leon, I seem to remember quite a while back there was a thread once where you recommended using a certain type of art gum eraser I believe to remove light pencil writing on a card to someone. if I'm wrong and it wasn't you, I apologize, but the point is that someone had suggested it and some collectors didn't feel that lightly erasing light pencil marks from the back of a card was really alteration, while others were vehemently against it. And there is the problem, not everyone is in agreement on what is and isn't okay, and therefore what does and what does not effect value. I am not for the card doctoring myself, unless it is disclosed. Luckily I tend to be a low-end collector grade-wise so I'm not as fearful of my collection being infected with a lot of altered cards. Will be interesting to see how these things shake out for the card collecting community, that is for sure. But as for people going to jail, not so sure that will actually happen. Even with the Mastro convictions, those were for shill bidding, not for card doctoring!

[Leon]

BobC
First of all I am usually wrong at this technical law stuff, it seems.
At first I believed the way you do. Now I don't. I see the pattern of fraud. What more can I say?

As for the Mastro Wagner trimming, according to what I read he went to jail in part, for doing it. It was mail fraud or at least part of the plea deal.

This is posted on the United States Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois website, concerning the Wagner. (btw, It is me with the erasers, I love them.)

"The T206-series Wagner card is considered one of the world’s most expensive trading cards. Mastro admitted in the plea agreement that he cut the card’s side borders, and then concealed this information when he sold the card in 1987. Mastro again failed to disclose his alteration even after participating in subsequent auctions of the card in 1991 and 2000. The sale in 2000 produced a purchase price of more than $1 million, according to the plea agreement. Mastro also failed to disclose that he cut the Wagner card again in 1992, even though he was aware that the card had been submitted to become the first baseball card assigned a grade based on the condition of the card."

.

[packs]

If you knowingly altered a card and took steps to hide that alteration and then sold your card to a buyer while marketing it as anything other than altered, you are defrauding the person you're selling your card to.

Alter your cards any way you want to, just make it clear what you've done at the time of sale and nobody takes issue with that. Any person who brings up the art world re: conservation or restoration is missing the very basic and ultimately most important aspect of that kind of restoration: it is disclosed to everyone.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Leon

BobC
First of all I am usually wrong at this technical law stuff, it seems.
At first I believed the way you do. Now I don't. I see the pattern of fraud. What more can I say?

As for the Mastro Wagner trimming, according to what I read he went to jail in part, for doing it. It was mail fraud.

This is posted on the United States Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois website, concerning the Wagner. (btw, It is me with the erasers, I love them.)

"The T206-series Wagner card is considered one of the world’s most expensive trading cards. Mastro admitted in the plea agreement that he cut the card’s side borders, and then concealed this information when he sold the card in 1987. Mastro again failed to disclose his alteration even after participating in subsequent auctions of the card in 1991 and 2000. The sale in 2000 produced a purchase price of more than $1 million, according to the plea agreement. Mastro also failed to disclose that he cut the Wagner card again in 1992, even though he was aware that the card had been submitted to become the first baseball card assigned a grade based on the condition of the card."

.

I'm with you Leon, you can see the patterns of fraud. I'm also not an attorney, just an accountant, but I've learned and seen over the years how what you think may be a slam dunk isn't necessarily the case when you start pulling out all the facts. Plus, if you try to convict someone criminally you'll need to get a jury of peers, and I doubt if any defense attorney would allow such a jury to get stacked with card collectors who have much knowledge, and opinions, about this. That is where I can see all the vague standards and inconsistent opinions that our hobby has in regards to alterations and restorations can work to benefit card doctors. The TPGs have set themselves up as so-called experts in our hobby, and in so doing, have become integral into the valuation of the little pieces of cardboard we like to collect. But who exactly gave them this designation and power, unfortunately the collecting community did by buying into their claims and services. Initially it was because of the need to get some safety from the "wild west" that used to exist in buying on the internet and not knowing how you may be getting ripped off by an unreputable dealer claiming something was what it was not. I think the original idea was to at least make sure something being purchased online was real, and not so much in such a high grade. That was where/when the "buy the card, not the holder" mantra made its appearance. To his day I still hear some collectors saying to forget about the TPGs givings grades, just guarantee the card is authentic and they can grade it themselves. Then as the idea of the registry started climbing, along with the prices for highly-graded cards taking off, that part of the grading system took over to driving the hobby and has gotten us to where it is now.

I also am aware that Mastro had to allocute to what was done to the Wagner card, but if I remember correctly, that is not the integral charge he got sentenced for, it was the shill bidding. You and I may find it abhorrent that the card was cut from from a strip in modern time and that it was never put into an actual pack of cigarettes and issued back in 1909 or so. But think about this, you have a jury of people who are not knowledgeable collectors and a defense attorney argues and asks that despite the fact the card had been cut from a strip in more recent years, is the card still not in fact an authentic T-206 Wagner card. And the answer is yes. He/she then asks if all the original T-206 cards had not also been printed in sheets and/or strips originally and then been cut from those at one time or another, and again the answer is yes. So he/she then asks, if it is possible that this one Wagner card was cut from such a strip long after the original issuance of these cards in cigarette packs in 1909, how do you know that none of the other ones that exist in the hobby out there today were not also cut from a strip or sheet long after their original issuance in cigarette packs? And if even so, the defense attorney may also argue what difference does it really make then, it is an authentic T-206 Wagner card. He/she could then go on about strip cards and how pretty much all cards are printed in sheets and then cut from them. Over the years people have found and purchased uncut sheets of cards, and likely more than once or twice have cut the cards out hoping to then submit them for high grades to TPGs. Do the TPGs have a way to really catch those and declare them as altered or trimmed? You and I both know the answer to that and if there are possibly any such graded cards out in the hobby today that were likely cut from a sheet long after they were originally to have been issued in packs. But can we prove it, and maybe more importantly, can we also definitively prove which ones in the hobby are or are not cut from sheets after they were supposed to have been???

So if all those technically trimmed cards may be floating around in the hobby, and no one seems to really care because they are authentic, exactly what is wrong with what was done in regards to the T-206 Wagner? Especially when they then ask the current owner to testify what he paid for the card and what he has been offered for it. As a jurist, exactly what harm can you accuse the person who cut that Wagner card from the strip of when the value has increased so much over the years. Exactly who was harmed??? You and I could then testify that because the Wagner card was not issued in a cigarette pack like it should have been over 100 years ago that to a collector/hobby purist its intrinsic value has been diminished, and the defense attorney will ask the stenographer to go back and re-read the testimony of the card's current owner as to what he paid for it and what he has since been offered for it. See the dilemma? There are different people/collectors with many differing thoughts and opinions on what constitutes alterations and what is and is not acceptable.

Until we can get a unified group/organization, independent of the various TPGs and their diverse grading standards and systems, to establish a single, uniform set up grading standards and rules and to force the TPGs to adhere to that unified grading system and subject themselves to outside independent review to assure they are actually performing their grading services in compliance with those standards, we'll always have uncertainty and differences in the collecting community. And because of that, it will always be hard to accuse someone of doing something illegal if there is no set standards or rules to be followed in the first place. And the chances of the TPGs allowing someone else to tell them what to do.................good luck with that!

And I did know you had posted about art gum erasers, and don't disagree with you at all. But there are others that think that is totally wrong and considered altering a card to erase such pencil marks. And just like that difference among collectors in regards to erasing pencil marks, you'll find differences of opinion among collectors about whether or not they have an issue with a card being cut and put in a pack, or if it was later on cut from a sheet or strip. It is still the same card, same paper, same printing ink and process! And if I was a defense attorney, I could also see arguing what is the difference then say in regards to the cards of the Black Swamp find? They were supposed to have been distributed and given out with candy back in the very early 1900's, but instead, some store owner never distributed them and left them in a box in their attic for about 100 years. So someone could argue that they were never issued as they were originally intended to either, but it obviously hasn't had a negative impact on their value. Granted, the ones that have been sold so far were then graded and labeled as part of the Black Swamp find, so I guess that could be construed as giving notice to potential buyers that they were never issued as they should have been. But what about those ones that were not graded and sold? I was under the understanding that not all of the heirs decided to sell their cards and that some asked to have their share of the cards given to them. So if one of them was to later on go to sell one of their cards and not have it graded and marked as part of the Black Swamp find, would they technically be guilty of not having properly disclosed that the card was not issued/distributed properly when it should have been?

And I still guess the biggest issue is whether or not there is actually a written/stated law somewhere that specifically says that selling an altered/trimmed/ restored baseball card is illegal, or that you have to state such when selling it. For now, sellers/dealers have relied upon the TPGs to do the independent grading and authenticating of cards, which the TPGs have claimed an expertise for and that the hobby community has blindly believed and bought into for years. And if the hobby community is shown to almost totally rely solely upon these TPGs for this service (ie: "buy the holder, not the card"), if they grade and authentic a card, then that is apparently what the hobby community is agreeing to as the standard and determining factor of a card's authenticity. So if in that case a TPG looks at a card that does not in their opinion appear to be altered/restored/trimmed, even if it actually may have been altered in some miniscule manner like erasing an errant pencil mark, the hobby community has more or less always gone along with the TPGs opinion and believes that if no alteration/restoration is detectable, then none actually occurred.

Of course then you can start arguing about degrees of alteration. So if you erase a real light pencil mark and no one can tell, some might say that is okay, but removing a crease by manipulating the cardboard in some manner that does not effect the thickness/dimensions of a card, even if you still can't detect the alteration, some might then say that is not. Look at the S-74 silks. They were originally all folded when put into cigarette packs, and the white version ones with the paper advertising still attached to the backs all pretty much came with folds in them. And SGC generally down grades them because of the creases. But is that proper and correct since that is the way they were virtually all distributed in packs? And then what about the very rare few ad-backed silks that don't show any creases? It could reasonably be argued that if there was no crease in the paper backing that the silk was likely never inserted into a pack and that maybe someone working at one of the the factories just took a few home, and that is how some have survived to this day. In that case those were never distributed properly in the same manner as they should have been, so should we downgrade those and consider them as something not as originally issued also. And don't get me started on the colored version silks. They would have also been folded over when put into the cigarette packs, yet you often see them without creases. So is ironing a silk to remove the crease considered an alteration also??? See how nit-picky this can get and you can start splitting hairs as to what is and isn't allowable. And you'll never get everyone to agree on everything 100%.

Thus, without some independent party/body to oversee the hobby and set the standards that everyone ends up following, even if they don't all agree with them 100%, you'll always have trouble going after people for things they do.