Now on Ebay! 1950's Brooklyn Dodgers Signed Baseball, Jackie Robinson, Campanella

[luciobar1980]

Hey guys, what's your take on this ball? PSA describes them as clubhouse signatures, but I know that doesn't mean they all are, necessarily. Which ones do you think are the real mccoy and which aren't? I feel pretty confident most are genuine but looking for some opinions.

Also, I bought it on ebay. Would you say that this listing was misleading or was it totally on me to read and understand the meaning of Clubhouse Signatures in on the PSA paper? I'm a novice when it comes to signatures, so I took a solid look and assumed these were all genuine. The PSA paper even calls them "genuine" towards the bottom, which in itself I find a little misleading. This ball is Ball #3 on the PSA letter.

Thanks for your help!

Link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brooklyn-Do...rdt=true&rt=nc

[yanks12025]

Messed up

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

I dont think that PSA auction letter even goes with the baseball.. Cause it lists tons more than 12 signatures and says Roy Campanella and there's no Campanella on that ball.

Id reach out to the seller about that..

I think it does actually.. the PSA letter lists 3 balls. The ball is question is ball #3. Sorry, should have mentioned that.

[luciobar1980]

Also, the link appears down at the moment but I did find that the ball sold as part of the George S. Hipp Collection in 2002. That auction included all 3 balls listed on the PSA letter, mine being ball #3.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

I think it does actually.. the PSA letter lists 3 balls. The ball is question is ball #3. Sorry, should have mentioned that.

Yep you're correct, I skipped over that part. Either way I think the title should still have said clubhouse ball instead of saying original

[Joe Hunter]

I think there is enough ambiguity in the description that I would send it back. I don’t think you would have a problem with EBay not siding with you in the event the seller balks at accepting the return. The fact that he says “no returns accepted” really means nothing.

[khkco4bls]

Campanella is on that ball. But I don't like the Jackie Robinson

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by khkco4bls

Campanella is on that ball. But I don't like the Jackie Robinson

Yup, I don't disagree. I've compared it to a bunch and from a layman's perspective it is definitely not way way off and even is similar in ways to a few I've seen, buuuut, leaning towards it not being his sig. And he's far and away the most important name on the ball, sooo...

Definitely still eager for other opinions though in either case!!

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

I think there is enough ambiguity in the description that I would send it back. I don’t think you would have a problem with EBay not siding with you in the event the seller balks at accepting the return. The fact that he says “no returns accepted” really means nothing.

Yeah, it's kind of odd that eBay even allows sellers, at this point, to say they don't accept returns.

[perezfan]

The two keys (Jackie and Campy) are secretarial.

Send it back, if that's not what you wanted, or feel you were misled.

[benjulmag]

FWIW, this ball reminds me of a 1955 Dodger's ball I considered buying some years ago on eBay. The provenance showed the ball was awarded in 1955 as a prize for winning some contest. I recall too the company that ran the contest was a sponsor of the Dodgers, thus giving further credence the signatures were genuine. I told the seller that I would not buy the ball until he showed it to PSA/DNA, which he did. They reported that all the signatures were clubhouse. As I recall, all the signatures appeared similar to those on this ball in regard to the pen used and the strength/color of the ink.

I remember myself as a kid in the 60's buying at a souvenir shop a signed Yankees ball. I displayed it for a number of years, never considering the signatures might be clubhouse. My point is that the people who are the intended customers of contests or souvenir shops that promote such items likely assume the signatures are real.

Bottom line with your ball -- IMO much more likely than not the signatures are clubhouse.

[luciobar1980]

Hmm, interesting, thanks for that tidbit! I've decided to return the ball, waiting to hear back from ebay.

[luciobar1980]

So, in the end, somewhat inexplicably, the seller allowed me to keep the ball but refunded my money! So anyways, what would you guys value this ball at/what is a reasonable asking price?

[OldOriole]

Since the original seller was willing to let you keep it for nothing, I think you have your answer.

[luciobar1980]

No one would pay even $1 for this ball which likely features several genuine signatures of HOF players? I have to disagree.

[perezfan]

Agree that it definitely has value. Hard to determine a sales price with all the Clubhouse Sigs. But it is a vintage ball and has definite worth. I'd throw it on eBay (with good pics and full disclosure), start it at $19.99, and let the market dictate it's price.

Best of luck, and congrats on getting the refund!

[luciobar1980]

Thanks! It worked out surprisingly well for me! haha

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agree that it definitely has value. Hard to determine a sales price with all the Clubhouse Sigs. But it is a vintage ball and has definite worth. I'd throw it on eBay (with good pics and full disclosure), start it at $19.99, and let the market dictate it's price.

Best of luck, and congrats on getting the refund!

[luciobar1980]

Now on Ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-s-Broo...cAAOSwkEFeTxM5

[benjulmag]

If I'm a betting man I would bet 100% of the signatures are clubhouse.

[luciobar1980]

I really find that hard to believe! How could all those separate signatures look so similar to their real counterparts? Did these teams go very out of their way to have people signing that could virtually duplicate the signatures of all these players? Maybe they did, I'm pretty naive to this. Interesting nonetheless. I leave it to the bidders to decide...

Originally Posted by benjulmag

If I'm a betting man I would bet 100% of the signatures are clubhouse.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

I really find that hard to believe! How could all those separate signatures look so similar to their real counterparts? Did these teams go very out of their way to have people signing that could virtually duplicate the signatures of all these players? Maybe they did, I'm pretty naive to this. Interesting nonetheless. I leave it to the bidders to decide...

Can't really speak as to other teams, but the Brooklyn Dodgers had a clubhouse attendant named Charlie The Brow DiGiovanna who often signed for the players, sometimes just a few signatures, sometimes the whole ball. He was so good, some of the players couldn't tell if they had signed or he had. But there are subtle differences. The one you have on ebay is 100% signed by him. It is a little unusual since he usually had more signatures on the ball, and each signature was a little smaller than yours, but they are definitely his signatures IMO. These balls can still go for $100-200, so you never know.

Here's a link to an article about him: https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...row-digiovanna

[luciobar1980]

Wow, that's crazy. Interesting. That's a real talent right there.

Originally Posted by rlevy

Can't really speak as to other teams, but the Brooklyn Dodgers had a clubhouse attendant named Charlie The Brow DiGiovanna who often signed for the players, sometimes just a few signatures, sometimes the whole ball. He was so good, some of the players couldn't tell if they had signed or he had. But there are subtle differences. The one you have on ebay is 100% signed by him. It is a little unusual since he usually had more signatures on the ball, and each signature was a little smaller than yours, but they are definitely his signatures IMO. These balls can still go for $100-200, so you never know.

Here's a link to an article about him: http://https://www.psacard.com/artic...row-digiovanna
Rick

[luciobar1980]

That's pretty cool, I guess either way the ball is an interesting piece. You link didn't work but here it is:

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...row-digiovanna

[earlywynnfan]

So, not to be a jerk or anything, but you bought a ball PSA'd as clubhouse. The seller felt it didn't have enough value to pay to have it returned. The opinions on here are clubhouse, esp. the Jackie. You even say you don't like the Jackie.

So what do you do? You post it on ebay saying "PSA says clubhouse, but I say most of the autos are real." You even list the Jackie that you don't like as the featured player! Not quite a lie, but I'd say very far from full disclosure. You specifically started this thread because you didn't like how the original seller listed this, and what do you do? You relist it with just as much shadiness. Looks like yet another ebay seller posting enough info to cover your a** with true collectors, but just maybe you'll catch a fish.

IMHO, this is crap. My ebay handle is earlywynnfan. Please block me so I don't accidentally bid with you.

Ken

[luciobar1980]

Dude, leave me alone. I fully explain everything in the auction. I still believe most of them are real, as I say in the auction. People can bid how they want. Do I have to hold every person’s hand. I think I explained everything pretty thoroughly. Definitely not as much shadiness as the original seller, sorry, I disagree. Do you want me to say ALL OF THESE SIGNATURES ARE CLUBHOUSE??! I don’t actually believe that. It’s possible though, and any person is free to bid or not bid accordingly.

[aelefson]

I completely agree with Ken. You asked for opinions and you basically ignored them and hope someone else is foolish enough to buy it. Your title and description is very misleading. That is not a good move on your part if you want credibility in future transactions.


Alan Elefson

[luciobar1980]

What would you like me to add to the auction? Honestly. I'm not going to say "these are all secretarial", because I don't know that. I didn't ignore the opinions, I've taken them into account and described what I believe in the auction. I really don't know what else you want me to say. People have to look at it and form their own opinions and do research. Do I have to lead them right to this thread?

[luciobar1980]

Added this to the auction:

Since I've gotten some inquiries about the ball, let me say it perfectly plainly. SOME OR ALL OF THESE SIGNATURES MAY BE SECRETARIAL. I do not know for sure. There was a Dodger batboy named Charlie "The Brow" DiGiovanna who was known to sign in place of many of the players. Either way, a very cool piece of Dodgers memorabilia.

[luciobar1980]

I think anyone who bids at this point should understand, and if they don't they have no business bidding on the ball at all.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

Added this to the auction:

Since I've gotten some inquiries about the ball, let me say it perfectly plainly. SOME OR ALL OF THESE SIGNATURES MAY BE SECRETARIAL. I do not know for sure. There was a Dodger batboy named Charlie "The Brow" DiGiovanna who was known to sign in place of many of the players. Either way, a very cool piece of Dodgers memorabilia.

The PSA letter, which you are referring to in your listing, says all 3 baseballs it inspected in that lot were clubhouse signatures. If any were deemed authentic, they would list those separately. They didn't bother, because all were deemed clubhouse. I know you are finding this hard to believe, but none are authentic. It isn't even one of Charlie's better works.

I also think you should have "Clubhouse signatures" with an explanation of what that means, prominently displayed at the top of your description. While I agree with you that bidders should read everything, if it were me, I would have Clubhouse at the top.

Rick

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

Dude, leave me alone. I fully explain everything in the auction. I still believe most of them are real, as I say in the auction. People can bid how they want. Do I have to hold every person’s hand. I think I explained everything pretty thoroughly. Definitely not as much shadiness as the original seller, sorry, I disagree. Do you want me to say ALL OF THESE SIGNATURES ARE CLUBHOUSE??! I don’t actually believe that. It’s possible though, and any person is free to bid or not bid accordingly.

I believe in the tooth fairy too Why didn't you just keep the ball or send it back anyway? Didn't the seller credit you?

You're doing exactly what the owner of the ball did to you in the description, no?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

... I'm not going to say "these are all secretarial", because I don't know that...

Actually, based on the letter from the paid opinion givers, you DO know that.

Doug "blaming the bidders is an easy way out" Goodman

[bigfanNY]

I agree with others that your Ebay listing is "Bad Behavior " on many levels. If you really believed that you are right and the folks here that offered you their free opinions based on combined decades if not centuries of experience are wrong. About even ONE of the signatures then you would send it to PSA and see what they say.
Oh Sorry ,My Bad, PSA has already said they were all Clubhouse.
So the only reason you would even suggest in your listing that one or more of the signatures was real is because you have bad intent.
I wonder if after you sell the ball the buyer starts a return because the listing made statements that led them to believe it is something it is not. Will you refund all their money and let them keep the ball?

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

I wonder if after you sell the ball the buyer starts a return because the listing made statements that led them to believe it is something it is not.

+1

Other than the ethics involved, that is a major reason why It is best to state all the issues up front, since a buyer could easily say they were deceived by your statements.

Rick

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

So, not to be a jerk or anything...

Ken

There is a jerk on this thread Ken, but it's not you.

Doug "although it might be me" Goodman

[Bpm0014]

You relist it with just as much shadiness

Completely agree. Scumbag move.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

There is a jerk on this thread Ken, but it's not you.

Doug "although it might be me" Goodman

Thanks, although my wife might disagree with you!

[Jim65]

It always amazes me that people have so little regard for their reputation.

[luciobar1980]

Did you guys even read everything I added to the auction? Calling me a jerk, etc, is really unneccessary and says more about you than it does about me. But of course no one here will see this from my point of view. Everyone on their high horse and mob rule as usual.. no surprise.

[luciobar1980]

I took everyone's feedback and added to the description. I was not trying to mislead anyone. I took what I knew or believed at the time and created the auction.

If you knew me you wouldn't be talking to me like I'm some scumbag seller. I've never had an unhappy customer, always accept returns and have even refunded people many times without even requiring a return.

I have sold comic books and baseball cards and have never been accused of misleading anyone.

That's my reputation. If you find this listing to be fraudulent or misleading, even after reading what I've added to the auction, then you're just seeing what you want to see and taking out your frustrations and insecurities on me. You are all perfect and virtuous, I get it.

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

You relist it with just as much shadiness

Completely agree. Scumbag move.

Unnecessary. Not cool. Go away.

[luciobar1980]

Furthermore, if I had just described these as Clubhouse Signatures as several people have suggested, that is not necessarily a transparent term to everyone. I myself thought that that meant that the ball was signed "in the Clubhouse" by the players. It wasn't until after I bought the ball that I realized what that meant.

So, by simply saying Clubhouse Signatures in the title, that doesn't really inform many people who don't know the term anything. Instead, I just said "signed ball" in the title and then went on to describe what that means in the description. Seriously! You guys are seeing this the way you want to so you can gang up on me. No halfway-intelligent collector would have been mislead by my auction even as it was originally, before i added to the description. If you believe otherwise, you might not be halfway-intelligent yourself.

[luciobar1980]

And with that, I'm done. I won't be checking this thread anymore. Good luck to all.

[Bpm0014]

Directly from your description:

PSA has described these as clubhouse signatures which means some of the signatures may be secretarial. I personally believe most of these signatures are by the players themselves, but please do your own research

Even after you were told they were all (poor) forgeries/clubhouse signatures. I, thus, stand by my original assessment of a scumbag move.

[999Tony]

Op, if you check this thread again, the fair thing to do would be to send any money you get for this ball to the guy you bought it from, up to what you paid anyway. That seller did you a nice favor refunding you and letting you keep the ball.

Modifying the description was helpful, but a heading stating clubhouse signatures is more descriptive, not less, for most people.

I do give you credit for modifying the description after being advised to do so, so I think you are trying to do the right thing, even if the execution was faulty.

[rlevy]

I actually don’t have a problem with your listing now. I just would have had clubhouse in the first line, with an explanation of what that means. And I wouldn’t put in a personal opinion because it gives a buyer ammunition to seek a refund from eBay, claiming they were misled. They could buy the ball, go to JSA in hopes it passes, but then apply for a refund when it fails, claiming they were misled by your statement that you felt most of the signatures were good. eBay sides with the buyer so often, why improve their position.

Rick

[eastonfalcon19]

46 watchers....45 are from this forum including me to see what this thing sells for lol

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by eastonfalcon19

46 watchers....45 are from this forum including me to see what this thing sells for lol

That is pretty funny. But like I said, there are buyers for these "clubhouse balls". I have seen ones from 1955 sell for $400-500.

Rick

[eastonfalcon19]

Originally Posted by rlevy

That is pretty funny. But like I said, there are buyers for these "clubhouse balls". I have seen ones from 1955 sell for $400-500.

Rick

It is a nice ball...If it was me that had this ball I would stick it with some of my other Dodger memorabilia. That's crazy that some sold for that much. I was actually surprised to see this one at $100 already. I guess I never really paid attention to clubhouse baseballs.

[orator1]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Op, if you check this thread again, the fair thing to do would be to send any money you get for this ball to the guy you bought it from, up to what you paid anyway. That seller did you a nice favor refunding you and letting you keep the ball.

This is the best idea and the right thing to do.