Another one for Al & the Pinback Guys...

[perezfan]

OK, this one is football and not baseball. Still need some help from the Pin experts on this one. I have a pretty decent Pinback collection, but it's not my "wheelhouse" so to speak...

That said... everything about this one (from the construction, style, foxing and aging) looks legit and age-appropriate to me. Is this Jim Brown Pin a Fantasy, or a legitimate vintage Pin?

I could not find another exemplar, which could be either good or bad. If it's a repro, you'd think they'd be all over the place, but it would be nice to see some verified "comps" as well. Seems to be a rare one, if it's indeed good.

Any thoughts from the Pin Gurus?

[ooo-ribay]

I’m leaning fantasy, due to the pin clasp. Jim retired in 1965 and baseball PM-10s were still using the “poke your eye out” type pin at that time. I also don’t like the lack of Brown’s name. What size is it?

[batsballsbases]

Hi Mark,
What is the size of the pin? 1 3/4 2 1/8 or 3 1/4. Now if its the first 2 I would have to say fantasy as as Rob said. The clasp to me for that size would be wrong. Now if its 3 1/4 that clasp would be correct. BUT to tell the truth I would have to lean on fantasy or made up also!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Hi Mark,
What is the size of the pin? 1 3/4 2 1/8 or 3 1/4. Now if its the first 2 I would have to say fantasy as as Rob said. The clasp to me for that size would be wrong. Now if its 3 1/4 that clasp would be correct. BUT to tell the truth I would have to lean on fantasy or made up also!

The seller is Seaweed2270 (Eric Weeden) who specializes in Pinbacks, and is by far the biggest seller of them on eBay. He described the Pinback as being circa 1959. I assumed that he advertised and described it correctly, and knows his stuff. Perhaps I/he was wrong...

It's 3" in diameter, FWIW. I will address the issue with him... many thanks for your help.

[ooo-ribay]

Perhaps a vintage, but home made, job? I’m not sure you’ll ever know....

[perezfan]

IDK... it does not look at all home-made.

Dumb question... What are these pins "coated" with anyway? I assume it's just paper underneath a varnish or plastic coating of some kind? Is there a word for the glossy surface material?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by perezfan

IDK... it does not look at all home-made.

Dumb question... What are these pins "coated" with anyway? I assume it's just paper underneath a varnish or plastic coating of some kind? Is there a word for the glossy surface material?

It certainly isn't all vintage pins, but many of the early to mid 1970's pins have a hard clear plastic cover and the paper photo underneath is very thin and waxy feeling. I'm curious myself how the pins that don't have the clear plastic cover are made but I haven't taken one of them apart yet.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The seller is Seaweed2270 (Eric Weeden) who specializes in Pinbacks, and is by far the biggest seller of them on eBay. He described the Pinback as being circa 1959. I assumed that he advertised and described it correctly, and knows his stuff. Perhaps I/he was wrong...

It's 3" in diameter, FWIW. I will address the issue with him... many thanks for your help.

Mark as far as Eric goes (this is my opinion) And I have nothing against Eric he is a member here and yes maybe you can ask him BUT Eric buys up large and small collections from auction houses etc., marks them up 50-100 % and puts them back on ebay. With these types of collections you get the good with the bad the shit with the sad.For Eric I would use the word business man not expert. Now back to your pin In my opinion if the pin is 3" exactly not 3 1/8 or 3 1/4 I would deem it a fantasy piece. Now if Eric wishes to come on and tell me why he thinks its real and how he knows that Im all ears. I see it sold for $295.00 and I assume you were the buyer,I would have asked more questions before I bought that pin.....

[Chris Counts]

Mark, did you see this auction listing? Is this the same one? https://lelands.com/bids/rare-circa-...brown-pm10-pin

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

Mark, did you see this auction listing? Is this the same one? https://lelands.com/bids/rare-circa-...brown-pm10-pin

Thankyou Chris ,
This is exactly what I was trying to say.. Its the same pin that was in Lelands 2 years ago. It is the same pin that you bought a few days ago. He even copied the same statement that Lelands used to sell it. Now does that make him an expert ? No that makes him a businessman. And now think about if its so rare why did it sell for about half the price it did before....

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

IDK... it does not look at all home-made.

Dumb question... What are these pins "coated" with anyway? I assume it's just paper underneath a varnish or plastic coating of some kind? Is there a word for the glossy surface material?

There’s a word....”cello”....but that doesn’t explain much, does it?

And, as far as “home-made”....they have button makers now that can produce very nice buttons at home. I would assume they had similar machines “back in the day.”

[perezfan]

Many thanks to Cliff, Chris, Rob and Al for your input and valuable contributions here...

Yes, it is the exact Pin that was sold previously by Lelands. I actually paid $218 on a Best Offer (not the full $295 asking price). So I paid just about exactly HALF of the original Lelands sale price in 2018 (just 2 years ago).

I know Eric is not in business to lose money, so will correspond with him about this off-line. Very curious as to why he'd let it go for half-price, and why he believes it's authentic and of the era. It's a nifty looking Pin, but not worth the $218, if it's really a Fantasy Piece.

Thanks again for all of your help,
Mark

[hcv123]

Why does the clasp/pin look to be in exceptional condition relative to the balance of the back of the pin which looks rusted, etc. I do not consider myself knowledgeable enough to weigh in beyond that.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by hcv123

Why does the clasp/pin look to be in exceptional condition relative to the balance of the back of the pin which looks rusted, etc. I do not consider myself knowledgeable enough to weigh in beyond that.

Howard,
The pin/clasp itself to me really isnt the issue as many of them were made of stainless steel or brass/ brass coated. To me the issue is the look, the exact size ( Mark said 3 inches) not many pins of that era were made 3 inches exactly,and the fact that it is Jim Brown a big star( you would think they would want to capitalize on making money) BUT why is there only one pin? It just doesnt fit which is why most of us are leaning to a made up one of a kind pin or a fantasy pin . I have seen this before on other pins .... Someone else may be able to help a bit more on the image on the pin as I have seen that image on something else before... Card, program, Jello box?

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by perezfan

IDK... it does not look at all home-made.

Dumb question... What are these pins "coated" with anyway? I assume it's just paper underneath a varnish or plastic coating of some kind? Is there a word for the glossy surface material?

The full term for these is "celluloid pinback buttons." Below is a description from the site of the American Political Items Collectors.

"Celluloid Button – this refers to a pinback button. There are various methods for making a celluloid pinback button, but the most common method for construction is as follows: an image was printed on paper, celluloid was placed onto the paper, then the combination of the paper/celluloid was secured (wrapped) onto a metal disk. The paper/celluloid application was held in place on the metal disk by wrapping it around the curl of the metal disk, then stabilized by a metal rim (or collet) that was pressed onto the back of the pin. Celluloid has not been used in the manufacture of pinback buttons for decades, now replaced by acetate."

https://www.apic.us/Resources/Glossa...2/Default.aspx

[perezfan]

Thanks for finding/posting that... I've heard the term "celluloid" many times, but never really had a grasp of what the material was. It must date all the way back to the turn of the century... right?

BTW, Erik kindly and promptly issued me a full refund as soon as I expressed my concerns. Very courteous and effortless. He provided some pretty decent rationale for the Pin being authentic, but I would not have felt completely comfortable with it, based on the feedback here (and in another forum).

It may just be one of those items that forever remains a mystery.

[ooo-ribay]

Good for Eric! Customer service like that will ensure a long run as ebay's #1 seller of pinbacks.

I have thoughts on what makes a pin "real." I'm going to post in the other pin thread, even though most of the "usual (pin) suspects" chimed in on this one.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Thanks for finding/posting that... I've heard the term "celluloid" many times, but never really had a grasp of what the material was. It must date all the way back to the turn of the century... right?

BTW, Erik kindly and promptly issued me a full refund as soon as I expressed my concerns. Very courteous and effortless. He provided some pretty decent rationale for the Pin being authentic, but I would not have felt completely comfortable with it, based on the feedback here (and in another forum).

It may just be one of those items that forever remains a mystery.

Mark,
Im glad it worked out. Like I said Eric is a good businessman and stands behind his items. Good for him... I would love to know his rationale for the pin being authentic.... Maybe a PM

[MK]

In case you didn’t notice, the Brown pin is back up for sale on eBay.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by MK

In case you didn’t notice, the Brown pin is back up for sale on eBay.

Mike,
Without a valid response from Eric I will have to call that the P.T Barnum theory. "There is a sucker born every minute"

[Exhibitman]

I collect Brown stuff and saw that pin, but passed. It is definitely not authentic from the date listed. The photo used is from a 1964 team photo shoot. Here is a team issue from that shoot:



It has been widely reprinted and was also used to create a press release for the Pro Bowl that year.

So the pin is an anachronism in terms of advertised date.

Now, as to the design, the 3" safety pin format was not used during Brown's career.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I collect Brown stuff and saw that pin, but passed. It is definitely not authentic from the date listed. The photo used is from a 1964 team photo shoot. Here is a team issue from that shoot:



It has been widely reprinted and was also used to create a press release for the Pro Bowl that year.

So the pin is an anachronism in terms of advertised date.

Now, as to the design, the 3" safety pin format was not used during Brown's career.

Thanks Adam I knew I had seen the photo before now we know where the pin picture came from.. I have a feeling that pic was used on other items...

[perezfan]

Nice sleuthing Adam! Small chance still that it could still be "vintage", but definitely not as early as stated.

Thanks for posting that pic!

[whiteymet]

Mark:

I am sure Adam has this nailed but if you want more info you should post it on VFC. Vintage Football Community site.

There are very knowledgeable collectors there. One specific Browns/Jim Brown collector there who may be able to help.

You have to join to post.

https://vintagefootball.discussion.community/categories

If you want to join tell Jeff you know me.

Fred