Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[jgannon]

There are a number of greats, including Warren Spahn. But in regard to Koufax, it's absolutely ridiculous to shrug him off for not having a long enough career. He was more than a great pitcher - he was a phenomenon. His peak may have been brief, but he was around long enough.

Stats don't tell the whole story as we know. Andy Pettitte, a lefty, had 256 wins. Big deal. A decent pitcher, but you can't compare him to Koufax.

If Koufax had had only one good season, then I could see the longevity argument. But as I said before, he was around long enough. And during that time he forever made his mark on the game. Koufax is one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jgannon

There are a number of greats, including Warren Spahn. But in regard to Koufax, it's absolutely ridiculous to shrug him off for not having a long enough career. He was more than a great pitcher - he was a phenomenon. His peak may have been brief, but he was around long enough.

Stats don't tell the whole story as we know. Andy Pettitte, a lefty, had 256 wins. Big deal. A decent pitcher, but you can't compare him to Koufax.

If Koufax had had only one good season, then I could see the longevity argument. But as I said before, he was around long enough. And during that time he forever made his mark on the game. Koufax is one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived.

If no other lefty had had a great peak, then I would accept this. Kershaw is at least equal to Koufax though, and Grove's 9 ERA crowns is one hell of a peak neither of the Dodgers have hit, plus he hurled 4,000 innings. When there are other options who are not good pitchers for a long time, like Pettite, but guys like Grove, Plank, Carlton, Spahn, Randy Johnson, I have a really hard time seeing how Koufax tops them by any reasonable standard.

[Touch'EmAll]

I have heard the Dodgers would make sure of a nice high pitchers mound. After Koufax retired, MLB overall lowered their mound to a universal lower height.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by G1911

If no other lefty had had a great peak, then I would accept this. Kershaw is at least equal to Koufax though, and Grove's 9 ERA crowns is one hell of a peak neither of the Dodgers have hit, plus he hurled 4,000 innings. When there are other options who are not good pitchers for a long time, like Pettite, but guys like Grove, Plank, Carlton, Spahn, Randy Johnson, I have a really hard time seeing how Koufax tops them by any reasonable standard.

I'm not arguing that Koufax was "the best". I'm just saying he belongs in the debate. I've seen film of Koufax, but of course, tragically the games back then weren't preserved. But I never of course, saw Lefty Grove, so I really can't comment on somebody like him. The other pitchers you're talking about were all great pitchers. Everyone can make their case for them. But Koufax is in the conversation or there is no conversation, in my opinion.

[earlywynnfan]

Grove! Look at his best 5-year run against Koufax's, then remind yourself Grove's peak was during the biggest hitter's era ever, Koufax during 2nd deadball era.

IMHO, what Grove did in 1931 might be the greatest pitching season ever.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Grove! Look at his best 5-year run against Koufax's, then remind yourself Grove's peak was during the biggest hitter's era ever, Koufax during 2nd deadball era.

IMHO, what Grove did in 1941 might be the greatest pitching season ever.

Roberto Clemente, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Eddie Mathews, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, Willie Stargell, Stan Musial, Lou Brock, Ernie Banks, Billy Williams, Ron Santo, Frank Robinson and Pete Rose would disagree that the 1930s were the biggest hitter's era. The 1950s & 1960s were at least equal if not greater. There was just a lot better pitching.