Fourth June Pick Ups Thread

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Posted By: Joann

From tbob - great card and I have the T207 Lively:



Yowie! I mean, Yawie! From our own BST. Thanks Steve. I've waited a long time for an E93 Detroiter. The Phillippe is just because it's such a cool card:



And another cool pick up of female players from this era. This kind of collecting is quickly turning from sideline to passion for me:

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Joann, somewhere there are more photos taken from that same team in the same year. They were all sold by JP the Mint on ebay at the same time. If I remember correctly there were two more single player photos in that group. Keep your eyes peeled for them as they may reappear on ebay some day.

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Posted By: Joann

There are 5 photos from this day/shoot on the LOC website. Two are of the team - one is this same image even with the "FEMALE GIANTS" handwritten at the top, but different photo (different tears and creases etc). The other three are all individual player shots. They are on LOC under the George Grantham Bain collection.

Neat item - I'm glad to have it. I think I may have seen the auctions but blew past them thinking they were from the 20's, which is later in time than I want to go. The photos are actually from 1913, but you can see the flapper style showing up already (in New York - first to get everything of course). I don't even think I Watch-Listed them, thinking they were from the 20's.

J

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

You found them on the LOC site? That's cool....I would have emailed you, but I had bids in on them as I wanted them, but I got outbid at the last minute on all three.

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Posted By: Paul

I just posted this in June #3. Didn't see June #4.

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Posted By: mr. moses

on dem lady giants....... great look in a later format.

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Posted By: Brian

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Posted By: Jerry

Thanks Brian

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Posted By: Lee

My New Red Hindu:

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Posted By: Bob

Brian- At the National I am going to try and buy every Obak Miller I can find so I can try and make a trade with you for a 1911 Zeenut Miller!
tbob

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Posted By: Brian

Bob - A 1912 Zeenut Miller would definitely get you a 1911

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

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Posted By: Brad

Rod,

Nice V122 Cobb!

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Brab,

Thanks. I've always liked the pose on that card.

Rob

Edited to add that the V122 has some back damage, but certainly nothing I can't live with.

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Posted By: Joann

How cool is this??? Just got it from someone that reads the board but does not post that was kind enough to email me about it. Thank you Dave.

It's cabinet thickness and about 4-1/4 x 7.

Front(BTW, this is not "Al P Gibbs" - he is pictured on the back):






Back. I have to say I thought long and hard about how to post this. I altered it before posting. The two black boxes are not on the actual card. I added them to cover two swastikas, which appear in the same reddish color as the rest. I know the symbol was benign at the time used on this card, but didn't want to offend anyone by posting a card with them.



I am thinking Star Bloomer team, based on unusual uniform (looks older than 1911 when Western Bloomers founded), star logo, and Star in team name. Still, the Bloomer teams usually had Bloomer in the team name and were referred to as girls, not ladies, so I'm not sure. I'm not sure I've ever seen a double-breasted uniform. Anyone care to hazard a guess on the date?

Also, whatever is on the reverse appears to have been pasted on and not part of the original card. The bottom is jagged and hand cut, while the other three borders are machine cut. It's very thin. Maybe from a circular or program or magazine? Whatever it is, I think someone clearly added it because the player on the front is also pictured in the team photo and they wanted both images on one card.

J

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joann, as a rabid Zionist and Jew, the swastikas would not offend me -- they do not suggest Nazi Germany in such a context. And even if they had, your piece is historical; no offense could ever be intended by whoever would post it here.

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Posted By: Jason Carota

...for my Red Sox set:

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Posted By: Joann

Jeff - thanks for that - I appreciate the input. I went through that exact line of thinking about context and history. But I decided to err on the side of caution, and that if even one person was offended I shouldn't post it. It does seem strange seeing them on a baseball card.

J

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The swastika was a positive symbol in many religions (ask Jim B) and societies for thousands of years before the Nazis latched on to it. I agree that it is always startling, however, to see it in a picture from a pre-Nazi Germany era.

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Posted By: Dylan

I cant honestly see how anyone can get offended by a swastika being used in that photo. The swastika has been used as decorative or religous symbol by just about every culture on the planet at some point or another. I think western society as a whole should reevalaute how we demonize symbols and its effect on other cultures. It is still a widely used symbol in both hinduism and buddihsm. But since the swastika was appropriated as a Nazi symbol, it has since then become a controversial motif as a consequence in western society. Swatikas are still used today to mark buddhist temples in asia. If I were to post a photo of a buddhist temple for whatever reason, should i black out the swastika? I think were all smart enough to realize the buddhist swastika and the nazi's ideology of hate and rasicm are completely unrelated, just in the same sense as it is completely unrelated to the ones in your photo.

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Posted By: Jason L

speak volumes about your character.
Regardless of whether it "should" offend anyone or not (and I have no idea how anyone can be right or wrong on that debate!), I appreciate you going to the effort to graphically alter the image before posting. Thank you.

oh, and...interesting card! thanks for sharing.
-Jason

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Posted By: MVSNYC

thanks to Brian W. for not bidding

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Posted By: Marc S.

I very, very seldomly see any Polar Bears that are better than Excellent simply because of the distribution and staining effects. That seven is one of the nicest PB's I've seen.

Congrats

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Posted By: Dave F

I think you did really good at that price Michael. Next you have to find a PSA 8 Polar Bear!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dylan, perhaps if you had some relatives cooked alive in furnaces due to the actions of soldiers wearing the swastika you might feel different. In addition, while swastikas are used to mark Buddhist temples in Asia, they are still employed to mark Jewish temples in America and Europe too.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I would argue that the Swastika was "mis" appropriated by the Nazis...
And due props should go to my peeps (the Injuns)- for first creating/using it.

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Posted By: peter ullman

joann great card(s)...and your sensitivity is greatly appreciated and quite admirable.

pete ullman

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Posted By: MVSNYC

thanks guys...i am happy to have this as part of my back collection...and a serious thank you to Brian for laying off of it...

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

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Posted By: steve yawitz

Thanks for the shout out, Joann.

I've always wanted this image and was pretty stoked to land it on a T216, even with the writing and the fact that the card is waaaay small:



I won a few other Kottons in the Verkman auction - yes, I admit I still bid in CSA - including what has to be one of the worst PSA 3's in the world:



Not that I really care about labels, but I guess these respectable PSA 2's made up for the Gibson grade:




And one more:

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, I'm guessing if that bite mark was absent from the Gibson you'd have a 5 or 6 easy.

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Posted By: Pete Z.

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Posted By: dstudeba

Very nice Pete, I wussed out on that one.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

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Posted By: howard

Joann, as a Jew I would not be at all offended had you not blacked out the swastikas, although I appreciate the effort. In fact, I would not even be offended if someone posted a photo of SS brownshirts playing baseball as it would have historical significance.

Howard

BTW..if you visit the Greek and Roman wing of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC you will find at least one ancient sarcophagus decorated with swastikas.

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Posted By: Dave F

OK...I messed up on the T3 earlier this week. Waiting now for somebody to tell me I screwed up here and bit on another reprint? crossing fingers

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Posted By: leon

It's fine and you got a very good deal. We all make mistakes...don't sweat it. Last week I had to return a fake W512 sheet I bought on ebay....without a great scan....but I should have known. If you do enough buying on ebay something will happen.....Once again, nice pick up.....

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Posted By: Joann

Dylan - I agree with everything you say about the historical and cultural breadth of swastika use. I considered it when trying to decide about blacking them out - thinking that them being on the card was clearly not the same context.

But I am not Jewish, and I decided I could not stand in the shoes of others in this case and substitute my judgment on what might be offensive for theirs.

But you are exactly right as far as the benign uses of the symbol. It's unfortunate that a positive symbol was so completely "ruined" for lack of a better word.

Sorry all to hijack an RPU thread. Does it count as much if I started the thread? lol

But it is a very, very neat card, no? Certainly the first I have or have seen that is a portrait of a single player. Now THIS set (assuming all players had cards) would get me set collecting!

J

ETA - and thanks everyone for the input on the symbols - it's been enlightening. And also for the comments on the card itself.

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Posted By: Bob

I've always told anyone who cared to listen that JoAnn was one of the nicest and caring people I've ever run across. Your concern over the symbol speaks volumes. Take care and if you make it to Cleveland, holler at me!

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Posted By: Dave F

Whew...thanks Leon. As long as this one is real! Any thoughts on why the two didn't go for more? Unless I misjudged what I thought the values were on these D381's. My snipe was actually set a good bit higher..so was pleasantly surprised, then scared.

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Posted By: Mike

Thanks Rob

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Posted By: DMcD

Joann- Once again you are the dispassioned and calm voice, fair and thoughtful. Be careful!! When they're ready to cart Leon off to the Loony Bin we might make you moderator.

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Posted By: Joann

AAAACCCCKKKKK! lolol. No. I'm a bitch. Really. haha. Just ask anyone at work, especially the Product Manager. hee. He about has to dive for cover when he sees me. I'm not moderator material - I have nowhere near Leon's patience and wisdom for these things.

Thanks for the nice comments though guys. I appreciate it. And since I've been up for going-on 21 hours, I am out of gas and needed a few smiles. And Bob - I'm thinking about National. But I am in Milwaukee the 22nd and St Louis (where I am now) on the 26th and 27th, with finals two weeks after National - it tires me out to think of it right now. We'll see.

J

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Posted By: JimB

Joann,
I appreciate your sensitivity. Regardless of the svastika's ancient roots, it was also the primary symbol of the Nazis and therefore should be treated carefully.

As to the ancient Buddhist symbolism, Buddhism adopted the symbol more than 2000 years ago from a pre-Buddhist Indian myth/cult of the Chakravartin or Universal Monarch. The Chakravartin was a mythical benevolent king of the world who ethically ruled his kingdom and created a world of great peace and prosperity for his subjects. According to traditional life-stories of the Buddha, who was born a prince, it was prophesized that he would have one of two possible destinies: to be either a great king and rule over vast areas of land (like a Chakravartin), or become a great spiritual teacher, the greatest in fact, and essentially be a religious Chakravartin. Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) ultimately renounced his kingdom and went on a sprititual quest leading to his enlightenment experience and ultimate Buddhahood. But the symbolism of the Chakravartin remained with him.

In the Chakravartin cult, the svastika was the king's symbol. The crossed lines and four darting lines symbolized his unification of the universe and that fact that his kingdom spread in the four directions. In Buddhism, the symbolism morphed. On the one hand, the crossed lines symbolize the unity of perfect wisdom and perfect compassion embodied by a Buddha. The four "arms" symbolize The Four Noble Truths, the simplified centerpiece of the Buddha's teachings. The almost circular motion indicates the turning of the wheel of the dharma or the setting in motion of the Buddha's teachings. This traces itself back to the first recorded discourse of the Buddha to his first five disciples recorded in the Dharmachakra Sutra (The Discourse Which Turned the Wheel of the Teachings/Dharma).

This is more information than anybody probably wanted, but there it is. Disregard at will.
JimB

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Posted By: Bill Todd

Thanks, Bill K.

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Posted By: leon

I was thinking the same thing.

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Posted By: Zach Rice

These three T211s will help make the start of a very difficult set.

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Posted By: S Gross

Zach,
You da' man !!!! Good luck ...

.... old card, but one of my all time fav's.

Got these from a nice guy board member, so I thought I'd show some "nice guy" new T207s: