1957 La Aficion cards mexican cards/cuban players

[richardcards]

I recently picked up this card.
1957 La Aficion Vince Gonzalez Cuban born
played in Mexico and one game in MLB 1955.
Asked for some opnions and was told these
are fake. Read a couple threads on these.
Also saw article recently on 1959 La Aficion cards
with a album. Spoke to the author of article
and told me that people reached out to him
about the cards not being real.
Does anyone have any information on these cards.
I am gathering information on these carda. Several
people are certain its not real.
I personally like the card and think if its fake
someone went a long way just to make a few
bucks.

Thanks
Rich

[richardcards]

pic

[richardcards]

only known card of player

[jcmtiger]

We like large pictures, but that is too large. Lol

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

We like large pictures, but that is too large. Lol

I resized and rotated it but it still looks mostly like a blob to me.
.

[D. Bergin]

Can't tell if that's Gandhi...or the creature from the black lagoon.

[Casey2296]

There were a lot of fakes coming out of Mexico. The member Roland_49 is our resident expert on Mexican/Cuban cards. Maybe he can weigh in on the matter.

[richardcards]

Old Cardboard website recongizes the
1959 La Aficion set listed under
Foriegn cards Mexico.

Emailed them to get some info

[mannybb24]

Bogus cards Richard, Old Cardboard has no clue on these foreign cards.
If you don't believe me after we traded emails about these cards that's totally fine, there's been plenty of discussion about these cards in the past and many collectors have been burned.
All of these so called "La Aficion" cards have come from one seller from Mexico and he sells them every couple of months.
The seller is a low class criminal, I've tried getting him booted off eBay and so have others but they just keep ignoring our reports.
The seller uses two eBay IDs:
Barbacoa2015
Pokajurecords

I've had several of these cards in hand and they are just trash.

[richardcards]

Manny
Its not about believing anyone or not. Stated that I had
recieved information that people believe these
are fakes. Also did not get this from ebay.
Just trying to get information on these from
as many different sources possible.

I noticed old card board has the 1959 la acfion
set listed in thier site and has an album to
accompany it. Some one went a long way
to fake these.

If anyone has any other info on these good
or bad I would like to know.

Thanks

[mannybb24]

The album is no good either.
As far as where your collector friend acquired the card originally just ask him, my best guess is eBay.

[richardcards]

More cards from this set.

[richardcards]

Santo Amoros
Wild Bill
Alonso Perry
Silvio Garcia
Roberto Ortiz

[mannybb24]

And here’s a screenshot I took on April 7th of last year of a listing on eBay from the same seller. Expect to see the same exact lot back up for sale within the next couple of months, because that’s what they do, sell fake cards.

[richardcards]

Here copy of the 1959 La Aficion album.
I will try to contact the newspaper to see
what information they can provide.

[richardcards]

Pretty nice looking album

[Exhibitman]

Barbacoa2015 is a crooked scumbag. That lot with the DiHigo, I bought it. Pure laser-copied trash. I tried to send it back but tracking to Mexico, forget it. Ate the loss. There are probably a dozen collectors who would line up for the chance to horse-whip the SOB. If I ever see him I am going to put him in the hospital.

[richardcards]

Sorry your loss.
I did not get this from a ebay seller in.mexico.
I purchased from friend.

[richardcards]

The card picture that manny posted is
different than the ones I posted.
I am uncertain that mine are from
the "bad" seller on ebay.

[mannybb24]

It’s all from the same seller Richard.
Please ask your friend where he bought them and it’ll lead right to the same seller.

[mannybb24]

Also the album page you have shown is a copy from the 1950’s Mexican album of cards called Deportistas Fotographics.

Here is a card I have that was cut out from that album and you can see the same design printed around where the cards are supposed to go.

[Jason19th]

So is the consensus that the eBay seller is selling bad fakes or that the issue never existed and it’s just fantasy pieces ?

[mannybb24]

Fantasy pieces

[richardcards]

Here is copy Josh Gibson sold
on ebay like five years ago.
Have not seen any more like this.

I cannot tell from the picture of album
The design seems similar but hard to
tell.

[richardcards]

Spoke the ebay seller which I did not get from.
He messaged me that he does not have anymore of
these and they are hard to come by.
He claims they are made by the newspaper company
from 50 thru 70s La Aficion.

I remember trying to bid on
the 1957 la afacion josh gibson five years

The card I have and the supposed fakes
look totally different.

Does any one have concrete evidence
to know if they are real or fake
beside bad ebay seller.

[Exhibitman]

Well, I guess you can believe whatever you want, but you've got both experts and victims of this scam testifying here. I guarantee if you look at your card under a microscope you will see the laser printing. This criminal's work isn't hard to identify as a modern fantasy piece; he counts on the difficulties of tracking a return to perpetuate his crimes.

[richardcards]

not laser printed
and not purchased on ebay.

[richardcards]

notice the round corners on my examples
versus the other ones are sharp edges.

Someone would have to sit there for hours
making perfectly round corners.

Its possible these where faked and some orginal
out there.

[mannybb24]

One last comment from me about these and I’m done.
They are fantasy pieces, La Aficion never made this set.
These cards are make believe and made by one person from Mexico.
They are junk and if someone wants to believe they are real then so be it, I can’t stop people from buying whatever they want, I can just try my best to educate and relay the information I have and what I’ve learned through my own purchases.
Richard if you want your cards to be real then they are real, I think that’s the answer you wanted whether true or false.
Just keep the cards to yourself and don’t sell them and you can call them real.

[richardcards]

Lol

[richardcards]

anyone new have any information
on these

Thanks

[Leon]

Originally Posted by richardcards

anyone new have any information
on these

Thanks

No new news ....still a fantasy island piece..
.

[JustinD]

[richardcards]

Just like the Romeo y Julieta everyone
thought fake.

The bottom line here is that there is
no concrete evidence that mine is fake.

Again did not get from ebay got it
from serious knowledgeable collector
and its not laser printed.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by richardcards

Just like the Romeo y Julieta everyone
thought fake.

The bottom line here is that there is
no concrete evidence that mine is fake.

Again did not get from ebay got it
from serious knowledgeable collector
and its not laser printed.

[Jason19th]

As someone who owned one of the Romeo’s I will be honest I still am very skeptical about their production. The fact that they have been slabbed by CSG is really meaningless to me because I don’t understand what information they used to make the determination. Therefore I don’t think that they “legitimization” should have anything to do with the 1957 .

That being said the one potential argument that I think needs to be made. Why in the world would anyone fake those. Show me another example of a fantasy piece that are so crude. While the other card types sold by the Mexican eBay seller are clearly lazar printed fantasy items, isn’t it possible that these were just crude paper give away produced in such an inexpensive unlicensed manner as to leave no proof of production. Maybe a roll of them was found in the offices of some out of business novelty company.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

As someone who owned one of the Romeo’s I will be honest I still am very skeptical about their production. The fact that they have been slabbed by CSG is really meaningless to me because I don’t understand what information they used to make the determination. Therefore I don’t think that they “legitimization” should have anything to do with the 1957 .

That being said the one potential argument that I think needs to be made. Why in the world would anyone fake those. Show me another example of a fantasy piece that are so crude. While the other card types sold by the Mexican eBay seller are clearly lazar printed fantasy items, isn’t it possible that these were just crude paper give away produced in such an inexpensive unlicensed manner as to leave no proof of production. Maybe a roll of them was found in the offices of some out of business novelty company.

I will say, from my experience with their head grader, they will do work the others (or at least SGC) won't do in order to grade and authenticate properly. The fact CSG graded it, or them, does need to be taken into account. And of course no one is infallible....
.

[Jason19th]

Originally Posted by Leon

I will say, from my experience with their head grader, they will do work the others (or at least SGC) won't do in order to grade and authenticate properly. The fact CSG graded it, or them, does need to be taken into account. And of course no one is infallible....
.

My issue isn’t really about CSG. It a more general concern about authentication when there is no exemplar that you can work from.

[richardcards]

Jason I think you are on to something here.
Why would someone want to fake Wenceslao
Gonzales. Its not like they faking Babe Ruth.
Most of the cards found are some sort of tribute
to cuban players that played in Mexico Wesceslao played from 1951 thru 1969.
I think its a really neat and obsure card.

[doug.goodman]

"Why would they fake these" is not a valid argument that they aren't fake.

There are thousands of items on ebay for less than a dollar,

So one could say "why would somebody spend the time needed to post an item and ship an item for less than a $1 profit?"

The answer is I don't know, but thousands still do it.

The reason that somebody would fake a Wenesloa Gonzales card, is because they figure somebody else might find their faked card "really neat" and would maybe give them money for it.

None of my business, but may I ask what you paid for it?

I have paid money for fantasy pieces, nothing wrong with that. Things are worth whatever people are willing to pay for them, whether 'fantasy' or 'real'.

Doug

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

My issue isn’t really about CSG. It a more general concern about authentication when there is no exemplar that you can work from.

There are a few ways to authenticate something when it's the first of its kind discovered. Most have to do with how it was made and if that method and the materials were available at the time AND in the place it was supposedly made.


AS for the rest of it, I'd want to at least see some decent resolution scans.

That would finish the laser printed vs not laser printed question.

Rounding corners takes seconds, not hours so that means very little.

Player selection doesn't mean much either. Most good forgers of small printed items have done both rare and very ordinary items. As one banknote forger said when asked what he would change if he was starting over "I'd counterfeit ones. Nobody ever gives those a second glance. "
The long play is to fake commons, then "discover" a star card once the commons have been accepted as as a legitimate set.
There's also a bit of higher interest in a players only card from his playing days.

It's also conceivable that these are some sort of privately and poorly made tribute set to the players who only mattered locally or to the producer. Which then got faked by someone else and falsely attributed to a card producer from the area.


In general, good expertisers approach an item not with the intent to prove it to be genuine, but to prove it to be fake. Only once something fails all tests that would indicate it's fake, can it really be considered genuine.

[Exhibitman]

Here's one for those who want to believe:



Wanna buy it? Comes with a fractional share of the Brooklyn Bridge too.

[richardcards]

Exhibit man

Before posting this I sent you
a private message and said you
knew nothing about these cards.
I understand your and Manny Opnions.
Photo bombing thread is not helping.

[richardcards]

more pics

[richardcards]

Longtime seller on ebay that sells
vintage Mexican cards with
10000 plus feedback.
I purchased him before.
Responded I know of thier existence but
never had one.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by richardcards

Exhibit man

Before posting this I sent you
a private message and said you
knew nothing about these cards.
I understand your and Manny Opnions.
Photo bombing thread is not helping.

Originally Posted by richardcards

Longtime seller on ebay that sells
vintage Mexican cards with
10000 plus feedback.
I purchased him before.
Responded I know of thier existence but
never had one.

Originally Posted by richardcards

Again did not get from ebay got it
from serious knowledgeable collector
and its not laser printed.

Your huge fuzzy pictures come closer to photo bombing that Adam's Joe Jackson card.

Long time ebay seller with 10 billion feedback who you have bought from before KNOWS they exist but has never seen one, so how does he know they exist?

I know of the existence of a 1957 m114 of Hank Aaron, because it's listed in the catalog, but I have never seen one, and nobody I know has ever seen one, and I know that the catalog is far from perfect, so do I really KNOW that the 1957 m114 Aaron exists?

No, I do not. But it's still on my wanted list, and probably always will be.

I bought an m114 from a long time seller, who I have bought from many times in the past, and it was fake. He didn't sell it to me knowing it was a fake, he thought it was real.

I hope your card(s) are real.

But, I also hope the Cody Bellinger hits .435 this year.

Doug

[John1941]

Originally Posted by steve B

As one banknote forger said when asked what he would change if he was starting over "I'd counterfeit ones. Nobody ever gives those a second glance. "

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Here's one for those who want to believe:



Wanna buy it? Comes with a fractional share of the Brooklyn Bridge too.

I'll take it. Is it okay if I pay in ones?

[richardcards]

This is the best pictures my phone takes.
Sorry

[richardcards]

Picture 1955 vince gonzales wasington senators.
My card is only known card this player.

[Exhibitman]

What told you was "I don't know anything about them. You should try Ryan Christof."

Have you tried Ryan? Here is his web site.

http://cubanbaseballcards.com/

You could also reach out to Al Jurgela. He is a member here and an expert on Negro League and Latin American cards too.

Seems to me that the more you resist taking recommendations for experts and the more you argue with people here over answers you dislike, the more it looks like nothing anyone tells you will change your mind about these cards, so it isn't a worthwhile endeavor to keep responding.

I'm out.