overrated and underrated

[matty6]

I'm a Marland boy and was fortunate enough to see Ripken come up as a rookie and retire an Oriole. I've heard all the arguments against Ripken and though he doesn't have the gaudy stats: .300+ avg, 500 hr, etc, Ripken's greatness goes unseen by the casual observer. He did win two MVPs and very easily could have won it in 84. In his MVP years he was easily the best player in his league.

Between 1988-1993, Ripken's teams were horrible. He had zero protection and pitchers simply gave him nothing to hit. He was forced to swing at crap because he WAS the offense, giving him not many chances to square up the baseball.

The Streak, as panned as it was by critics, is a testament to his willingness to show up for work every day. During those years, he was not only the offense but another coach on the field. Ripken was legendary for his placement on hitters, knowing every hitters' tendencies. He also called the pitches from SS, relaying them to the young and less knowledgeable Mickey Tettleton or Chris Hoiles.

As far as Ripken taking a day off, this Oriole fan would much rather have a nicked up Ripken there rather than a Manny Alexander or Juan Bonilla. His positioning on cut offs and relays were not only impeccable but also made an impression on Alan Trammel who told a story once about how Ripken positioned himself differently in relays than anyone else. After Trammel noticed during infield warmups at an all-star weekend he questioned Ripken about. Ripken went on to give him a ten minute explanation as to why he did it that way. Trammel went on to use what he learned from Cal from that day til the day he retired.

Bill James had weekend tickets to the Orioles and Royals once. He decided to to focus on Ripken the whole weekend, BP, pre-game, and between innings. James writes that during that whole weekend he never saw Ripken make a bad throw. Every throw was square in the chest of the target. Not in the face, not below the belt, not right or left. Square in the chest. It must have been 2000 throws or so. But that was Cal. This is what we Os fans were used to.

One year he made only 3 errors I think it was a .996 pct. Teammates rave about his work ethic and how amazing he was as a teammate. Ripken never sat NOT because of selfishness but because coming to work every day was the way only he knew. I never recalled any teammates complaining about Ripken being in the line up either.

Teammates also recall his uncanny ability to heal. Brady Anderson remembers Rip getting drilled with a 90 plus fastball on the arm in the first inning of a game. By the eighth inning the welt and bruise were gone. True story.

Ripken's legend goes far above his above average stats. His greatness and legend are fed by the things a casual onlooker doesn't see - his fielding, his leadership, his loyalty, his knowledge and his toughness.

Though his stats are underwhelming, as a complete baseball player, we will be hard-pressed to see another Cal.

[drumback]

I completely disagree about Evers. If you read the Bill James Historical Abstract, he makes a strong case that Evers, believe it or not, was one of the best runs creators of the deadball era. Hall of Fame, Tinker and Chance, definitely not. Evers? Absolutely yes.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by matty6

I'm a Marland boy and was fortunate enough to see Ripken come up as a rookie and retire an Oriole. I've heard all the arguments against Ripken and though he doesn't have the gaudy stats: .300+ avg, 500 hr, etc, Ripken's greatness goes unseen by the casual observer. He did win two MVPs and very easily could have won it in 84. In his MVP years he was easily the best player in his league.

Between 1988-1993, Ripken's teams were horrible. He had zero protection and pitchers simply gave him nothing to hit. He was forced to swing at crap because he WAS the offense, giving him not many chances to square up the baseball.

The Streak, as panned as it was by critics, is a testament to his willingness to show up for work every day. During those years, he was not only the offense but another coach on the field. Ripken was legendary for his placement on hitters, knowing every hitters' tendencies. He also called the pitches from SS, relaying them to the young and less knowledgeable Mickey Tettleton or Chris Hoiles.

As far as Ripken taking a day off, this Oriole fan would much rather have a nicked up Ripken there rather than a Manny Alexander or Juan Bonilla. His positioning on cut offs and relays were not only impeccable but also made an impression on Alan Trammel who told a story once about how Ripken positioned himself differently in relays than anyone else. After Trammel noticed during infield warmups at an all-star weekend he questioned Ripken about. Ripken went on to give him a ten minute explanation as to why he did it that way. Trammel went on to use what he learned from Cal from that day til the day he retired.

Bill James had weekend tickets to the Orioles and Royals once. He decided to to focus on Ripken the whole weekend, BP, pre-game, and between innings. James writes that during that whole weekend he never saw Ripken make a bad throw. Every throw was square in the chest of the target. Not in the face, not below the belt, not right or left. Square in the chest. It must have been 2000 throws or so. But that was Cal. This is what we Os fans were used to.

One year he made only 3 errors I think it was a .996 pct. Teammates rave about his work ethic and how amazing he was as a teammate. Ripken never sat NOT because of selfishness but because coming to work every day was the way only he knew. I never recalled any teammates complaining about Ripken being in the line up either.

Teammates also recall his uncanny ability to heal. Brady Anderson remembers Rip getting drilled with a 90 plus fastball on the arm in the first inning of a game. By the eighth inning the welt and bruise were gone. True story.

Ripken's legend goes far above his above average stats. His greatness and legend are fed by the things a casual onlooker doesn't see - his fielding, his leadership, his loyalty, his knowledge and his toughness.

Though his stats are underwhelming, as a complete baseball player, we will be hard-pressed to see another Cal.

+1! Additionally, based ONLY on offense, Ripken is one of only EIGHT players in history with 3000+ hits and 400+ home runs.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

+1! Additionally, based ONLY on offense, Ripken is one of only EIGHT players in history with 3000+ hits and 400+ home runs.

He also made almost 9,000 outs.

[BigRedOne]

Overrated: Barry Sanders

Underrated: Emmitt Smith

[seablaster]

Originally Posted by BigRedOne

Overrated: Barry Sanders

Underrated: Emmitt Smith

Barry Sanders?

In a 10 year career he was the NFL rushing champion 4 times. He could have topped Walter Payton's all time rushing record prior to Emmitt Smith had he not lost his competitive drive. At the same time he was hampered by playing on all those pathetic, occasionally marginal, Lions teams. I give him all the credit in the world for walking away from the game on his terms.

[BearBailey]

I am going based upon card values being over priced and under valued and Not whether or not I feel the player is actually under or over rated, as I feel they are 2 very different issues/arguements.

Over priced: Nolan Ryan, Mickey Mantle, Derek Jeter, Sandy Koufax

Under valued: Steve Carlton, Mike Schmidt. Robin Yount, Jim Palmer

[BigRedOne]

Originally Posted by seablaster

Barry Sanders?

In a 10 year career he was the NFL rushing champion 4 times. He could have topped Walter Payton's all time rushing record prior to Emmitt Smith had he not lost his competitive drive. At the same time he was hampered by playing on all those pathetic, occasionally marginal, Lions teams. I give him all the credit in the world for walking away from the game on his terms.

While Barry made some of the most spectacular runs in you'll ever see.
He often lost yards at key points in games trying break those big runs, thus the ALL-TIME leader in yards lost from Scrimage.

The Barry Sanders crowd always like to sight the bad teams he played for, that is a cop out. Barry's Lions made the playoffs 5 Times and won the Division twice. Sanders was a none factor in ALL of those playoffs appearences and scored only once in all 6 games they played in.

Yes its true that Emmitt Smith is not going to be as successful with out that O-Line. And the same is true of Sanders. He doesn't win 4 rushing Titles without some help up front. Granted it wasn't that Cowboys Line, but he had a quality line.

The Bottom Line is Barry just didn't have the power to run inside and Move the Chains at key points in the game and was often out of the game on third and short/Goal. 7-8 men in the box and he was easily made a non-factor by playoff defense's which made the Lions a one dementional.

I love all those Spectacular runs he made! But as you stated, he didn't have the competitive drive or the ablity to ever carry a team to a Chamionship.

I know many will disagree, as Barry is well regarded by many, and rightfully so.

But IMHO I do believe he is one of the more overrated backs. Fun to Watch, but I can name a dozen backs I would rather have in crunch time Playoff games than Barry.