pete rose: What a Hitter & What a Scumbag !!

[RTK]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

“Scumbag“
“pile of crap“
“liar“
“bum“
“coward“


Yup, he's all that and a whole lot more. I agree with you guys. However, I do think he should be in the Hall of Fame. It's the HOF, not the Hall of Integrity. +1

Not while he's alive, if at all. It seemed as if baseball was moving towards Rose but I'm sure this shuts down any hope. Joe Jackson is more deserving of being forgiven and making the Hall. I always saw Jackson as "the canary in the mine" , if he made it in, Rose would. Rose is his own worst enemy, great player though in his prime, but I wonder when the evidence will come out he bet against his team.

[skelly]

I like Rose, and while he certainly has his faults, he's made for numerous debates, etc.... Let's face it, is Derek Jeter a good guy? I don't know him, but by all accounts, yes. Here's the thing. If all pro athletes were like Derek Jeter, pro sports would be pretty boring. It's the villains and personalities that make pro sports interesting. I'm also a A-Rod and a Richard Sherman fan just for the record. My one beef with Rose was the Ray Fosse incident in the All Star game. That was uncalled for.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by RTK

Not while he's alive, if at all. It seemed as if baseball was moving towards Rose but I'm sure this shuts down any hope. Joe Jackson is more deserving of being forgiven and making the Hall. I always saw Jackson as "the canary in the mine" , if he made it in, Rose would. Rose is his own worst enemy, great player though in his prime, but I wonder when the evidence will come out he bet against his team.

Rick - I wholeheartedly agree with 'not while he's alive' - if he was to be inducted while still living, he'd be getting better treatment than Santo, who obviously deserved better.

It does not matter if he bet against his team - if he only bets ON his team at certain times, it has the same effect. Being the manager or one of the regular players, he was in a position to directly affect the outcome of the games he bet on, and thusly on even the ones he did not bet on.

Remember, there is a sign in EVERY Major League clubhouse that states betting on Baseball in 'taboo' (I'm not sure of the actual wording, but the message is crystal clear).

[packs]

It's not really about whether or not Rose is a good guy. It's about whether or not he broke cardinal rules of baseball, which he did do. He could have broken all the rules he wanted in his personal life, but when you break the rules of baseball, it's not unreasonable to be punished. He knew the punishment before he broke the rules and he did it anyway. He is banned because he should be banned.

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by RTK

Not while he's alive, if at all. It seemed as if baseball was moving towards Rose but I'm sure this shuts down any hope. Joe Jackson is more deserving of being forgiven and making the Hall. I always saw Jackson as "the canary in the mine" , if he made it in, Rose would. Rose is his own worst enemy, great player though in his prime, but I wonder when the evidence will come out he bet against his team.

I'm not sure how Jow Jackson is more deserving... he actually threw World Series games and possibly regular season games in 1920. Buck Weaver maybe... but not joe jackson. I say never let any of them in.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I'm not sure how Jow Jackson is more deserving... he actually threw World Series games and possibly regular season games in 1920. Buck Weaver maybe... but not joe jackson. I say never let any of them in.

It's questionable that Jackson threw any games. His actual performance suggests that he didn’t. There is no doubt that Rose bet on games as a player and manager. Pete knew the rules when he put himself above the game. Now he is paying the price, forever banned from the game and hof. The idea that players would ignore the cardinal rule of baseball and would want induct Pete makes no sense.

[RTK]

Originally Posted by rats60

It's questionable that Jackson threw any games. His actual performance suggests that he didn’t. There is no doubt that Rose bet on games as a player and manager. Pete knew the rules when he put himself above the game. Now he is paying the price, forever banned from the game and hof. The idea that players would ignore the cardinal rule of baseball and would want induct Pete makes no sense.

Yup, I was under the impression he played pretty well.

"Debate has raged ever since over the extent of Jackson’s participation in the scheme. He claimed his teammates gave his name to the gamblers even though he hadn’t agreed to participate, and the other players admitted that Jackson never attended meetings about the fix. Though Jackson signed a confession in 1920 stating that he was paid $5,000 (out of the $20,000 he was promised), he later asserted that a team lawyer manipulated him into signing a document he didn’t fully understand. (Jackson never learned to read or write.) He also said he tried to return the money and talk to White Sox owner Charles Comiskey about the plan both before and after the series, but was rebuffed.

And finally, there’s the matter of Jackson’s play on the field. During the 1919 championship, the slugger made no errors and racked up 12 hits, a World Series record that stood until 1964. His batting average for the series (.375) was the highest on either team. If Jackson did try to throw the championship, his supporters argue, he did a pretty poor job. In any event, after the 1921 ban Jackson played “outlaw” ball under an assumed name before retiring to his hometown of Greenville, South Carolina, where he eventually owned a liquor store. He made various efforts to be reinstated, all of which were denied, before his death in 1951."

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by rats60

It's questionable that Jackson threw any games. His actual performance suggests that he didn’t. There is no doubt that Rose bet on games as a player and manager. Pete knew the rules when he put himself above the game. Now he is paying the price, forever banned from the game and hof. The idea that players would ignore the cardinal rule of baseball and would want induct Pete makes no sense.

I don't think there is much doubt that he participated in throwing these games. He even took payment and testified to this.
Most of his stats were padded at irrelevant points in the games and in the Cicotte game when they were actually trying to win.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I don't think there is much doubt that he participated in throwing these games. He even took payment and testified to this.
Most of his stats were padded at irrelevant points in the games and in the Cicotte game when they were actually trying to win.

There is no evidence that he took payment.The grand jury record of his testimony shows no confession, that is a myth. He was aquitted and later successfully sued Comisky for back pay. 3 legal proceedings in each he claimed innocence. After they were banned, the 7 said that he wasn't part of the fix.

He padded his stats? He set a record for hits, 12, and had an OPS of almost 1.000. He had a truly remarkable series if he was able to do that while throwing games. There are many myths around the Black Sox story. The only thing we know about Jackson is he knew of the fix. That is enough to keep him banned from baseball and out of the hof.

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by rats60

There is no evidence that he took payment.The grand jury record of his testimony shows no confession, that is a myth. He was aquitted and later successfully sued Comisky for back pay. 3 legal proceedings in each he claimed innocence. After they were banned, the 7 said that he wasn't part of the fix.

He padded his stats? He set a record for hits, 12, and had an OPS of almost 1.000. He had a truly remarkable series if he was able to do that while throwing games. There are many myths around the Black Sox story. The only thing we know about Jackson is he knew of the fix. That is enough to keep him banned from baseball and out of the hof.

He padded his stats at irrelevant points. His home run came when they were already down by 8 runs. He knew if he got singles, Risberg and Gandil batting behind him would never drive him in. in the field he played routine fly balls into triples and played out of position. There were a couple games when he went all out because he didn't know the fix was still on or when they were trying to win Ciccote game 5 for next year's contract negotiations.
I thought his grand jury testimony was hidden by comisky but turned up at the Milwaukee hearings four years later when Jackson was try to sue Comisky? And when they turned up the judge found Jackson in contempt and sent him off to jail for perjury.

[ooo-ribay]

Did you catch his stand up routine on the ASG pregame tonight? Bad.

I grew up in Ohio during the Big Red Machine years. I never liked Pete. That said, I say ban him from baseball but put him in the Hall. It's a museum of greatness and Pete was a great....a gambling addict and not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but a great.

[benjoman]

What if players like Clemens, McGuire, Canseco, Braun, Rodriguez and others to many for naming get into the Hall. Is that really fair? They are flat out cheaters no matter how one looks at it. If an Olympic metal can be stripped because of doping, then a lifetime ban should be in place on players for the Hall. Gambling is an addiction, juicing is a choice!! I know many hate Rose but his accomplishments were pure not chemically enhanced!!

[HRBAKER]

The first time he bet on baseball it was a choice. There are plenty of other things to bet on. He has had years and years of opportunities to come clean and exhibit a modicom of remorse. Poor Pete. What everyone else has done matters not.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by benjoman

What if players like Clemens, McGuire, Canseco, Braun, Rodriguez and others to many for naming get into the Hall. Is that really fair? They are flat out cheaters no matter how one looks at it. If an Olympic metal can be stripped because of doping, then a lifetime ban should be in place on players for the Hall. Gambling is an addiction, juicing is a choice!! I know many hate Rose but his accomplishments were pure not chemically enhanced!!

Braun used an unauthorized substance (not a performance enhancer) to heal a calf injury that had been bothering him for nearly the entire 2011 season. Was it wrong? Yes. Should he have been suspended? Yes. Does that even begin to compare to betting on baseball games (including games he was playing in, and managing) for years, and then lying about it for decades?

Not in the slightest.

[EvilKing00]

I think pete should be in the HOF as well as Joe jacksan and a few other "bad guys" like mentioned before the guy was an awesome player and my kid and eventually grand kids should be able to see him in the hof. the Hof is a museum... a history of the best players.

here are my complete thoughts -

http://metsmerizedonline.com/2014/01...-of-fame.html/

[RaidonCollects]

I am personally against Pete Rose, and him ever being entered back into the hall.

Let me tell you a story told to me by a former ML baseball player: (this was probably in the 1990's)

We had just finished a Players' Association meeting, and I was sitting at a table in a restaurant with Yogi (Berra), Juan (Marichal) and some shortstop from St. Louis. We could hear a conversation on the table next to us. A small girl, maybe 7-8 years old asked one of the players on the table to sign her cap. The player angrily denied "I'm busy," but said the girl could have the signature for $60. She ran away crying to her family. From Yogi and Marichal's table we could hear what happened, we went over to the girl and asked to borrow her cap, then we marched over to the player. We put the cap in front of him, and demanded "now sign it, or there'll be trouble."

The player was Rose.... obviously.

Good ol' Pete

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by RaidonCollects

I am personally against Pete Rose, and him ever being entered back into the hall.

Let me tell you a story told to me by a former ML baseball player: (this was probably in the 1990's)

We had just finished a Players' Association meeting, and I was sitting at a table in a restaurant with Yogi (Berra), Juan (Marichal) and some shortstop from St. Louis. We could hear a conversation on the table next to us. A small girl, maybe 7-8 years old asked one of the players on the table to sign her cap. The player angrily denied "I'm busy," but said the girl could have the signature for $60. She ran away crying to her family. From Yogi and Marichal's table we could hear what happened, we went over to the girl and asked to borrow her cap, then we marched over to the player. We put the cap in front of him, and demanded "now sign it, or there'll be trouble."

The player was Rose.... obviously.

Good ol' Pete

This doesn't sound like the Rose I have heard about or experienced. He was very gracious to me on three different occasions. The final time I met with him at a breakfast meeting that he was a guest speaker for. At the end of the meeting, he signed balls for everyone in attendance. When I approached him, he signed two balls for my sons, and then reached behind the table and pulled out two bats that he signed for them as well.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This doesn't sound like the Rose I have heard about or experienced. He was very gracious to me on three different occasions. The final time I met with him at a breakfast meeting that he was a guest speaker for. At the end of the meeting, he signed balls for everyone in attendance. When I approached him, he signed two balls for my sons, and then reached behind the table and pulled out two bats that he signed for them as well.

I haven't heard anything as negative pertaining to Pete as what was stated above either, but maybe that was his turnaround point? Some people don't see the "light" until something smacks them in the face...maybe this was that moment.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

I think pete should be in the HOF as well as Joe jacksan and a few other "bad guys" like mentioned before the guy was an awesome player and my kid and eventually grand kids should be able to see him in the hof. the Hof is a museum... a history of the best players.

here are my complete thoughts -

http://metsmerizedonline.com/2014/01...-of-fame.html/

'grand kids' can see him in enough places, just not in a place of honor.
.
.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

'grand kids' can see him in enough places, just not in a place of honor.
.
.

"honor" is a big word for so many that don't deserve to be in the HOF to begin with...If Pete doesn't deserve to be in the HOF, there are several that need to be booted out as well.

I'm all for him not being allowed in baseball, but to keep him out of the HOF is a shame. He is one of the greatest players in history and for that, he deserves a plaque. We need to get off of our high horse about honor and such...the Hall is a lot of politics to begin with...look who does the voting...such a joke.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This extensive discussion concludes it is likely Cobb bet on a game.

http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/ana...burgess05.html