E-bikes and regulations

Rad_Hazard · #1 01-30-2023, 01:39 PM

In the current Montana legislative session there is a bill that would classify different classes of e-bikes (throttle/no-throttle/mph governed or not) and allow them to go anywhere regular bikes can go, which sounds great, BUT, this bill is intended to allow local communities to regulate each and every trail in their area.

The problem I have is that the majority of local cyclists are elitists who hate e-bikes. I ride my e-bike on these trails quite a bit and I get yelled at or dirty looks from the elitist cyclists that pass by (we have a lot of riders that are sponsored and/or compete professionally), and these trails are very wide and there is no shortage of space on all sides (approx. 8 ft. wide). My local area is poised to ban the use of e-bikes on a lot of bicycle paths as well as paved multi-use paths.

The e-bike is my only option to get out and enjoy our amazing scenery (as well as small grocery trips) due to health issues, but it sounds like it's about to get much more difficult for me to do that. I feel like the regulations are arbitrary since an e-bike can be so easily modified and people (especially elitist cyclists) need to just live and let live and be happy that people are out enjoying nature rather than bicker about how they are doing so.

My questions are:

Does the area where you live have have any regulations on e-bikes?

How do you feel about the use of e-bikes on trails/paths?

Pic is the view from the first leg of the 50 mile paved multi-use path.

packs · #2 01-30-2023, 01:44 PM

I don't have a problem with e-bikes or e-scooters as a mode of transportation. My gripes are always against the type of people who tend to use them. In NYC the typical e-bike guy doesn't care about stop signs, one ways, pedestrian right of way or seems to realize they're riding a completely silent bike. Having to look both ways at a one way crossing, or having some person come out of nowhere to just miss you in the crosswalk is the norm.

But it sounds like "the bike guy" persona is universal enough that they're pretty annoying where you live too.

Rad_Hazard · #3 01-30-2023, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I don't have a problem with e-bikes or e-scooters as a mode of transportation. My gripes are always against the type of people who tend to use them. In NYC the typical e-bike guy doesn't care about stop signs, one ways, pedestrian right of way or seems to realize they're riding a completely silent bike. Having to look both ways at a one way crossing, or having some person come out of nowhere to just miss you in the crosswalk is the norm.

But it sounds like "the bike guy" persona is universal enough that they're pretty annoying where you live too.

They absolutely are. Cycling elitists are incredibly entitled and annoying. I'm just an out of shape guy who wants to enjoy nature on infrequently used paths. I've been to NYC and have seen the insanity of e-bikes there, which is a whole different animal.

In my opinion, trails and multi-use paths in rural areas like mine should be wide open for e-bikes.

BobbyStrawberry · #4 01-30-2023, 01:59 PM

I might be a cycling elitist, but I am biased after being rear-ended and having my bike wrecked by an e-biker who wasn't paying attention.

That was in a busy urban area though, so I wouldn't have a problem with sharing the paths in more open areas, as long as people are aware of their surroundings. And don't get me started on distracted car and truck drivers! (There are cyclists who are total a**holes too, of course)

Rad_Hazard · #5 01-30-2023, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I might be a cycling elitist, but I am biased after being rear-ended and having my bike wrecked by an e-biker who wasn't paying attention.

That was in a busy urban area though, so I wouldn't have a problem with sharing the paths in more open areas, as long as people are aware of their surroundings. And don't get me started on distracted car and truck drivers! (There are cyclists who are total a**holes too, of course)

I don't blame your reaction to getting hit by an e-biker who wasn't paying attention, I would be upset too.

When I say "cycling elitist", I'm more referring to the people who are on standard bicycles who pass me and yell/give me the finger/glare at me just for riding an e-bike.

I am hyper aware when I'm riding mine and I always slow down when I see someone approaching (cyclist or pedestrian), but I realize there are bad eggs out there. They aren't all that way though, I did have a cyclist follow close behind me for quite a few miles one time and thanked me for the draft lol.

packs · #6 01-30-2023, 02:09 PM

There's always room for nuance. When I think of a "bike guy" I'm thinking of the guy who thinks cars and drivers must obey every single law and to the letter, but you know, if "bike guy" is sitting at a red light and no one's coming, why can't they just roll through the intersection?

Smarti5051 · #7 01-30-2023, 02:11 PM

My problem with ebikes is that in my neighborhood we have about 1000 kids. Every one of them has an ebike. There is no "training" of any sort before a kid can ride an eBike. So, these kids are zooming around the road and sidewalks with no understanding of the rules of the road. We have about 50 roundabouts in our little city, and the ebikers are traveling at 20 MPH through crosswalks and parking lots as if they are pedestrians. It is easy to see and slow/stop for a pedestrian or bike going 5-10 MPH, but when you are going 30 MPH down a street and a bike going 25 MPH comes out of nowhere, it takes a great deal of skill to avoid hitting them. Same is true when you are backing out of a parking spot and a kid flies by on a bike going 20 MPH through the parking lot.

If you are on a bike trail or area that is not heavily populated with cars and cross traffic, I have no problem with ebikes.

BobbyStrawberry · #8 01-30-2023, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

I don't blame your reaction to getting hit by an e-biker who wasn't paying attention, I would be upset too.

When I say "cycling elitist", I'm more referring to the people who are on standard bicycles who pass me and yell/give me the finger/glare at me just for riding an e-bike.

I am hyper aware when I'm riding mine and I always slow down when I see someone approaching (cyclist or pedestrian), but I realize there are bad eggs out there. They aren't all that way though, I did have a cyclist follow close behind me for quite a few miles one time and thanked me for the draft lol.

Yeah, I think being aware is the key. I do get the concept of the "cycling elitist" for sure - I'll never forget one time walking over the Brooklyn Bridge (which has a shared walk/bike path) and seeing a cyclist aggressively trying to push through a very dense crowd while screaming at the top of his lungs "GET THE F*** OUT OF THE WAY!". I was like, yeah, you're the reason people hate cyclists, bro.

todeen · #9 01-30-2023, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

but you know, if "bike guy" is sitting at a red light and no one's coming, why can't they just roll through the intersection?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

We have about 50 roundabouts in our little city, and the ebikers are traveling at 20 MPH through crosswalks and parking lots as if they are pedestrians. It is easy to see and slow/stop for a pedestrian or bike going 5-10 MPH, but when you are going 30 MPH down a street and a bike going 25 MPH comes out of nowhere, it takes a great deal of skill to avoid hitting them.

If you are on a bike trail or area that is not heavily populated with cars and cross traffic, I have no problem with ebikes.

First, I am the biker guy who rolls through intersections / red lights if no one is coming. But I also do it with me car late at night. (shoulder shrug emoji)

In my neighborhood, we have a kid who owns an app controlled one-wheeled-skateboard. He runs red lights across a road where vehicles travel 45MPH+.

As for the OP's original question about laws and e-bike regulations... I would assume that the city is receiving complaints on trails that already have regulations that don't permit ORV. For instance, we (Spokane WA) have trails near my house that are for non-motorized vehicles only. We also have trails / nature reserves that include noise regulations. The humming of e-bike motors might break current regulations regarding man-made sounds. So the city might be trying to codify a new machine to fit into existing expectations of other motorized vehicles.

IMO, I'm sorry that your desire to be in nature is being thwarted. You live in a beautiful part of Montana. Is that Bozeman? I lived in Billings for 10 years. I romanticize the ecosystems of Eastern MT; the sagebrush, the small canyons and ravines. My wife hates it. She wants trees.

Rad_Hazard · #10 01-30-2023, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todeen

First, I am the biker guy who rolls through intersections / red lights if no one is coming. But I also do it with me car late at night. (shoulder shrug emoji)

In my neighborhood, we have a kid who owns an app controlled one-wheeled-skateboard. He runs red lights across a road where vehicles travel 45MPH+.

As for the OP's original question about laws and e-bike regulations... I would assume that the city is receiving complaints on trails that already have regulations that don't permit ORV. For instance, we (Spokane WA) have trails near my house that are for non-motorized vehicles only. We also have trails / nature reserves that include noise regulations. The humming of e-bike motors might break current regulations regarding man-made sounds. So the city might be trying to codify a new machine to fit into existing expectations of other motorized vehicles.

IMO, I'm sorry that your desire to be in nature is being thwarted. You live in a beautiful part of Montana. Is that Bozeman? I lived in Billings for 10 years. I romanticize the ecosystems of Eastern MT; the sagebrush, the small canyons and ravines. My wife hates it. She wants trees.

I live in Missoula, the picture is the trail on the way to Lolo/Hamilton.

The bill wasn't brought on by any issues with e-bikers, it was actually from a law maker that owns and rides e-bikes and wants to make them officially legal everywhere bikes can go. The problem is that the bill has now been amended to classify different speeds and types of motors and local jurisdictions will be given the power to decide access to certain trails.

Missoula is full of the elitist cyclers that frown upon the use of e-bikes because they put in years of work etc etc, and they tend to get what they want. Well I don't have the time nor body type to make that happen so I just want to get out in nature and enjoy it with no restrictions. Where I go I see lots of older folks riding e-bikes and having a great time, this will affect them directly as well.

bnorth · #11 01-30-2023, 04:36 PM

No laws in my little town. There are in the larger(LOL) towns around here.

What I have noticed is it depends on their power/speed if you can ride it on a bike path. Mine is one that you can ride on bike paths most places that have laws. Mine tops out at 20MPH and is a class 2. When it isn't winter here I have a couple friends that live in a really small town 9 miles away. I ride it back and forth at least once a week to their houses.

I have had mine for around 4 years and have had to replace the tires 3 times. I honestly can't believe how long it has lasted with all the miles I have put on it. I noticed the street tires last a lot longer and will let you go a lot farther on a charge. The one pair of knobby tires lasted less than half a season before they went bald.

EddieP · #12 01-30-2023, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I don't have a problem with e-bikes or e-scooters as a mode of transportation. My gripes are always against the type of people who tend to use them. In NYC the typical e-bike guy doesn't care about stop signs, one ways, pedestrian right of way or seems to realize they're riding a completely silent bike. Having to look both ways at a one way crossing, or having some person come out of nowhere to just miss you in the crosswalk is the norm.

But it sounds like "the bike guy" persona is universal enough that they're pretty annoying where you live too.

You forgot to write that the NYC e-bike guys also ride on the sidewalks.

packs · #13 01-30-2023, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddieP

You forgot to write that the NYC e-bike guys also ride on the sidewalks.

Ah how could I leave that out. The worst offenders.

BobC · #14 01-31-2023, 01:36 AM

It can go different ways. When I was a kid, I lived on a somewhat rural, two-lane street that had no sidewalks. In fact, the entire village I lived in didn't have a single sidewalk. So when I got on my bike to ride over to see a friend, I'd often get some a$$hole drivers coming up behind me and yelling or honking their horns at me. For whatever reason, many of these supposed smart, intelligent, adult drivers would yell at me I was on the wrong side of the street and was supposed to be riding my bike facing towards them, not with them going the same direction. I realized at a somewhat young age how stupid many people, especially so-called adults, could be that didn't even know you ride a bike going along with traffic when there is no sidewalk, and walk on the side of the road facing traffic, when there is no sidewalk. I quickly figured out they were all just a$$holes who were pissed that they had to slow down because it was only a two-lane road with some hills and curves, so they couldn't just breeze by me like they wanted without slowing down and being careful.

Not much seems to have changed with regard to the overall intelligence of many adults yet today!

As for as some mentioned, issues with kids riding e-bikes in urban areas, especially when they can go 20-30 MPH, the first and biggest problem is with the parents. They should be the ones initially and primarily responsible for teaching their kids how to ride safely, what the rules/laws are and that they need to be obeyed, and make sure they aren't allowing young kids the ability to get on e-bikes like that that can go as fast as cars. WTF are these parents thinking, or wait......that's it, they aren't thinking!!! Just another instance of technology being great.....until it isn't. If anything, I would say kids should be entirely banned from even being able to ride e-bikes, especially in populated urban areas until they have reached a certain age, AND have received and passed specific training and testing. If anything, keep them riding regular bicycles for as long as possible. That way at least they might finally start getting some exercise and the child obesity issues in the U.S. may at least start to be addressed. If some kid isn't big/old enough to be able to continuously peddle a bike at 20-30 MPH, they sure as hell shouldn't just be able to get on an e-bike instead that can go that fast and put them, and others, in danger.

As for the OP that has health issues, and is getting harassed by elitist bikers, see if you can identify any of them, and/or maybe try to use your cell phone to video their actions, and then go to the authorities and report the harassment and terrorizing activities. I believe those trails you're talking about are likely public lands, so those bikers most certainly do not have any sort of special privilege or right to those trails over anyone else. Or maybe even first go to the authorities in charge and ask them what you should do when harassed and terrorized like that. Hopefully they will give you some advice other than just to ignore them, as that is them simply being lazy and not doing their job to make such trails and parks are safe and accessible to ALL citizens/taxpayers looking to enjoy them. And if they do turn out to be worthless as far as offering any advice or assistance, I'd contact this state legislator who is sponsoring the bill to pass the use of these e-bikes throughout the state, and inform him of the harassment you and others receive from bicyclists. Perhaps along with the new e-bike laws, they can pass some legislation formally making it illegal to discriminate and harass and terrorize people on e-bikes as well.

Sadly, if they did do that though, we both know it would only be a matter of time before some self-entitled, a$$hole e-biker would start acting as badly, or even worse, than these elitist bicyclists you've had to deal with. And when someone then tried to get them to stop, they'd immediately cry victim, try to get people arrested, and of course, sue for a big payday. That seems to be the American way anymore!

steve B · #15 02-01-2023, 10:49 AM

Lots of interesting stuff here.
E-Bikes
In Mass, an e-bike that con go over 25 is supposedly a motorcycle (Last I checked) so not really allowed lots of places. But ebikes that fast used to be really uncommon.
I worked for a bike shop directly on a multi-use bike path.(sort of still do)
We had one Ebike, that had a claimed top speed of 25. Not with me on it though, no matter how I tried I just couldn't get it past about 20.
I raced one season - entry level and years ago, and I'm not all that slow.

The shop now carries a decent line of e bikes. The path is off limits to motorized vehicles, (except police/fire/ambulance/dpw... )
When we asked the police, they said they had no interest in enforcing that on something like an Ebike that's quiet. But if someone was being "that guy" on an ebike, it would be part of the ticket or charges.

Cyclists in general.
Ok, so I am one, and used to be very fast. I know the rules, and usually just follow them as much as it's practical. Like our state law is that cyclists must ride as far right as is practical. What exactly does that mean? Well, to me it means that if traffic is doing about 30 and so am I I'm right out in the road with the cars. Haven't really been that fast in a long time. (I did do some iffy and not so sane things when I was young)

The elitist cyclists are a-holes here too, the stories I have from the shop about them.... Except, the "elite" guys are typically anything but.
One day we had a sudden windstorm, which broke off a tree about 20 ft up and leaning on another tree so it was over the path. Not a safe thing in high winds and pouring rain. I went out and was warning people that came by and offered the shop as a dry place to wait it out. Had 5-6 people think that was a splendid idea. And two that made rude gestures and told me to F off??? Of course they were in the lycra clown suit advertising the other local shop - their customers have a bit of a reputation...
While waiting, I noticed one of the guys in the shop has a serotta built Murray bike with a number hanger. (For real pro/very high level amateur bike from the 80's) I commented on it and asked if he knew whose it was and his reply was "Mine from when I was on the junior national team"
Yes, and actual elite rider.
We talked a bit and got on the subject of the guys who though they were good. Like the ones that were so rude. We had a good laugh when I said they were a bunch of fat middle aged lance wannabees.

There's another local guy I've seen on the road that sometimes wears a US national team jersey from the 80's, and one day he was doing a track stand while waiting for a school bus. Basically staying in one spot without putting a foot down. Not at all easy on a road bike. I suspect the national team jersey isn't a replica.