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#1
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: marshall barkman
I thought this should be a follow up post to Bruce's concerns about who and what the government is investigating because i find it odd that people actually think the baseball card world is legit. I have been buying and selling baseball cards for 20 years and not the nickel and dime type cards. I have also attended several major card shows that bring out PSA,SGC and all major card dealers. The entire hobby is corrupt and the amount of honest people in the high end card game is very slim. Here is a prime example. I recently got into a riff with some of the members on this board and they basically called me out over some clown named Billy who i did not know and acted like i did not pocess alot of T-206 cards and actually questioned if a imposter was posting for me which i found amusing. I will say that Leon is a class act and sent a personal e-mail which let me know he does actually care and has a passion for cards and the people that own them. Of the 1500 T-206 cards that i own i decided to send a collection that i bought which consisted of 250 cards and they had some real strong Southern Leauguers in it. I have always suspected that the card graders such as PSA are totally corrupt and will always give better grades to dealers and also in regards to PSA protect graded cards which are in their set registry. I sent the cards to a auction house and allowed the owner to send them in, we spoke over the phone before they were sent and out of 125 cards my personal grading was off on only 2 cards when they got slabbed. The cards were sent to PSA and the grading was correct. After the auction ended i had to basically get rude in order to recieve my money so i decided to skip sending anymore of my cards to auction because it was a very uncomfrotable scene and i am very old school so without saying anymore trust me my friends somehow someway i am gonna get Paid. I spoke personally to Joe Orlando who is the CEO of PSA and told him about my concerns because i am not a dealer and also spoke of the cards i own and that i would like the same consideration as other high end dealers when submitting cards, we worked out a arrangement but i am no dummy so instead of sending in some T-206's i started with some 1944 Gum Inc American Beauties just in case old Joe and the graders brought their Brett Favre game. If the cards were graded honestly their value is around 7,500. These cards were cello packed pulled and out of 48 cards their was at least 2 10's and about 7-10 9's some of which would have been the first ever found 9's. The cards basically never saw the light of day for 60 years because they were in a chest in the attic on a board which had 12 cello packs attached to it and a dealer who saw my post in the non-sports section offered me 5 figures for the cards and the board . Let me also state for the record that i have submitted to Beckett about 200 cards of which over 175 have been graded BGS 9.5 and some BGS 10 which is not easy to do and up until these cards i have submitted to PSA about 9 cards of which all came back PSA Gem-Mint 10 except for a Pujols rookie and Billy Butler rookie which i knew were 9's. I just got online and saw that the grading for the American Beauties and out of 48 cards only 1 came back a 9 and isn't it odd that the particular card that got a 9 has 15 other 9's on the pop report which is no coincidence, how nice of PSA to throw me a bone. A majority of the cards were graded between 7 and 8 which is almost laughable due to how nice and clean the cards are and the fact that the cards were razor sharp with nothing on the back. There is no doubt in my mind that the cards were snubbed because i am not a dealer and that the cards in the set registry were protected, if a well known dealer had sent in the cards then they would have been graded correctly. Basically PSA just cost me about 5 thousand and Mr. Orlando will not return my phone calls so instead of taking it on the chin i think i'll take the shot and now start throwing some myself. I ask all the members of this board to ask this question- How many times have you cracked out a card from a PSA holder and then re-submitted it and the grade comes back 1 or 2 points lower? How can a 8 come back a 6.5 and a 6 come back a 4.5? How many times have you been at a card show and watched certain people get grades and then look at the card in the holder and just laugh? The answer is obvious the company is bogus and their is shady things going on all the time behind the scenes especially at the major card shows. I hope the government is investigating these fu#$%king goofballs and does something to clean up the hobby because i'm trying to figure out if Joe is friends with Bernie Madoff (-: unlike most card buyers who really don't want to express their opinion due to the retalition i have plenty of cash and alot of super nice cards and i'm not intimidated by any of these suedo auction houses or grading companies. PSA should change from Pro Sports Authenticator to Pro Scam Alliance. Good day Joe and i hope you and the rest of the snots that work for you read this post because your holders are not worth the plastic it cost to make them because of your inconsistent and manipulative grading. |
#2
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Steve
It would be a better/easier read if you used some paragraphs. |
#3
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Steve F
Marshall, Firstly, some page breaks would've been thoughtful to us old guys with weak peepers. That is one Mt Everest of a paragraph! |
#4
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: leon
I think Marshall got his point across though a few paragraphs and punctuation would help the reading. I have similar stories of preferential treatment too. If anyone ever gets a chance ask Roger Neufeldt ( a very nice and active dealer) about his grading experiences. They weren't much different than Marshall's. On a similar situation I just submitted a bunch of cards to SGC.....I was very disheartened with some of the grades and, though I very rarely do it, some will be going to PSA for examination (sans holder of course). There is no freaking way that one particular, valuable card, is what they said. No way. I looked at several other SGC examples in 1-2 grades higher and I am positive (as positive as I can be in looking under magnification) that this card deserves a bump up in grade. I just don't think they will bump high value cards up that are in their own holders even when they deserve it, for the most part. I know there are exceptions but that would be my summation.....best regards |
#5
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Max Weder
I can't speak one way or another from personal experience. However, my confidence in the grading system would be increased by any grading company that put a system in place which ensured that the grader was unaware of the identity of the person submitting the cards. My understanding is that neither PSA nor SGC has such a system in place. |
#6
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: barrysloate
I agree with the first two comments- this is really hard to read, and to follow the argument. |
#7
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Rich R
From PSA site concerning identity of the card owner: |
#8
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: leon
That story really should start out "Once upon a time...." I am sure Memory Lane and Jim Crandall and other PSA HOF'ers would never get special treatment though..... |
#9
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Max Weder
Thanks Rich. I hadn't noticed that before on PSA's website. I remember bringing this point up a couple of years ago, and if I recall correctly, no one mentioned that it was there. Perhaps it has been recently added--or maybe it has been there for a number of years. |
#10
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: barrysloate
Grading services are only as good as their reputations, which are built through accurate grading and authenticating. If their customers lose faith in that, there is nothing left and it all comes crashing down. |
#11
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: JimCrandell
Barry--exactly which is why PSA would never give favoritism. |
#12
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Bob
I am hardly a whale or one of the "big boys" but I do have a substantial collection, I believe. That said, I can only reiterate what I stated in a different thread, that I was told several years ago by a major auction house that they needed to send my consignment in for grading themselves because they would get higher grades than I could. I believe the guy at the auction house was being honest with me and he knew exactly what he was saying. |
#13
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Fred C
I spoke with someone that told me that they could get guaranteed 8's for me on several cards I have. This was a few years ago and the person is a dealer, a well known reputable dealer. I wont go into the details but that kind of bugged me. I didn't send the cards in for submission (I know you guys probably think I'm stupid for not taking that opportunity). |
#14
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: barrysloate
Bob- is it possible the auction houses say that to improve their chances of getting your consignment? Because if it is true that they can get higher grades, they really should keep that under their hats. That's not the kind of thing that should ever be made public. |
#15
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: boxingcardman
Grading is not an objective truth, like math, as much as we'd like to think it is; it is a lot closer to art than science. I find that my personal grading scale is consistent with SGC's approach and I am rarely surprised with the results when I send them my cards. PSA has a different approach, one that baffles me on many counts, so I rarely send them any cards. Regardless, no third party grading service has the capacity to be 100% objective; mere human error associated with the judgments made in asessing a card will dictate some degree of randomness to the result. Cruise Ebay and it is easy to find overgraded and undergraded cards from every slabber. I suspect there is favoritism; I cannot prove it. I also suspect that most collectors have an overly optimistic view of their own cards' qualities. |
#16
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: JimCrandell
An auction house can potentially gety better grades as it can call Joe or Dave and discuss the particular card and ask him to take a second look. There is no way that the graders at PSA know whose card they are grading or that for example that Reza knows for example that this as a Memory Lane card. |
#17
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: JimCrandell
Barry, |
#18
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Dan Koteles
If you are a collector, you buy the card and not the holder |
#19
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: barrysloate
Jim- anybody can ask PSA to take a second look and review cards. Why would someone need an auction house to do this? |
#20
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Jason
wow people actually tried to read that train wreck of a post? Does the thread starter hate eyes? |
#21
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Steve
Am I in some type of time warp? You mean there was no corruption |
#22
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: leon
No doubt there was corruption before PSA. I have many, many old articles to prove it. PSA just added to it by changing flip numbers on cards and not disclosing it (ala Memory Lane), grading the holy grail with a number...and other neat stuff like that. For the record I still do think PSA gets it right most of the time and I don't hate the company or Joe.....If I had to pick the hobby with or without them I would still pick it WITH them. regards |
#23
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: JimCrandell
Barry, |
#24
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: quan
BREAKING NEWS: CORRUPTION AT PSA!!!!!!!++++++++ |
#25
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Fred C
Corruption... can we first define corruption? |
#26
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: JimCrandell
Fred, |
#27
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
It really sucks when the grading company disagrees with you. |
#28
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: macboube
Is in the hands of PSA. They know and have verified with S. Hart that our cellos are real, they know they have been stored in a time capsule for 53 years. They know we are not dealers, but just a couple of fortunate souls who happened upon these cards. They know that money is not the over riding factor in our quest for high grades, etc. They know we seek to have a couple of the most incredible sets on the Planet. Our multitude of submissions of these Mint beauties have revealed the following: |
#29
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: peter ullman
this sounds like "Risk"...the game of world domination. |
#30
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Steve F
"A game of World domination played by a couple of idiots that can barely run their own lives." |
#31
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Steve
Is owning a grading company and selling cards corruption? |
#32
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Steve
I still have no idea what the OP was ranting about. |
#33
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: barrysloate
NEWMAN (after Jerry accuses him of trying to cheat at Risk): I'm a little insulted. |
#34
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Anthony S.
I got through the entire paragraph. I think "suedo" was a Phil Collins song. |
#35
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Anonymous
i kind if agree with the fellow, but i can't prove it. so i'll just leave it alone |
#36
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: leon
I am not sure who your grading comment was directed at but (no worries, it's all in fun debate)....I do think SGC is one of the most consistent graders, along with BVG, in the business. I consider some folks at both companies as friends and both do a good job. All that being said how would you feel about the grade of this D303? |
#37
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Bob
I will tell you it wasn't Mastro that told me that they could get better grades for their cards than I could. |
#38
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Bob
Leon- You are not alone old buddy. I have a couple of gorgeous E94s with no wrinkles or creases and a very, very tiny paper loss on the back, like yours, and they ended up as 10s. It's just hard to figure out. I know SGC hates paper loss and enamel loss on the front borders of cards but giving them 10s is something I can't stomach when I see other 10s that are mangled. |
#39
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: JimCrandell
I'm sure every dealer has told potential customers they can get better grades than they could--to attach any meaning to the comment is silly. |
#40
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy
Just from my own experience of sending in a number of bulk subs to both PSA and SGC. |
#41
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
Leon: |
#42
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Tony Andrea
Leon , |
#43
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Fred C
Jim, |
#44
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Wesley
If the moderator of the Net54 cannot get the benefit of the doubt, what hope is there for the rest of us? |
#45
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: leon
Cool....I do think we can have a good debate. Here are a few more points. |
#46
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Steve
Nevermind. |
#47
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
Leon: |
#48
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Steve
Al |
#49
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
just to unofftopic this thread so it can return to its genesis... |
#50
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: leon
Al- that is a great card. From the scan it definiitely deserves an 88. Wowser!! |
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