Grading Postcards

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Posted By: Phil Garry

How does everyone feel about the way postcards are currently graded by the major grading companies with respect to being postally used as they were intended to be when they were printed?

In my opinion, any name, address, message, postage stamp and post office markings on the back of the postcard should not be included in the final grade evaluation but instead, the postcard should be judged on its corners, edges, centering (if applicable) & surface.

Although many, many postcards have already been graded at this point, would it be too late to make a change such as this? Would the grading companies be willing to regrade previously submitted postcards? I think this could be a Win-Win for both sides; additional revenue for the grading companies and potentially significant upgrades for collectors, who probably would not mind spending a few extra bucks if their grades would increase by a level or two.

So what do you think?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I do not think postcards should be downgraded for postal use except in the case where the ink from the cancellation bleeds through to the front of the card. I personally prefer the postcards that I collect to be used because it's easier to date them and often times there's an interesting story to the note on the back.

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Posted By: Matt

I doubt the grading companies will change their standards, but the market may evolve like OJs, where the market value is disconnected from the technical grade.

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Phil,

I guess my question would be...why grade a postcard? It is what it is. Like you said, it was meant to be used.

Why does this hobby need third party justification on everything cardboard?

Greg

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Matt, I think for the most part it already is....most postcard collectors (that I know anyway) are not trying to put registry sets together and many postcard issues are so rare that collectors will take whatever they can get.

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

We agree Matt that the SGC and PSA are not likely to change their standards

We also think, in this case, their logic is quite correct.

Certainly tickets were met to be used and a ticket where the stub is all that
remains is far less valuable than an unused ticket (a few exceptions noted)

We believe that a near mint or mint grade for a postcard (we have two that have received
grades from SGC) is just that...mint- no writing etc.

Whilst the correspondence may be relevant and interesting to the theme of
the postcard, it does detract from someone who is looking for a gem mint
example

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Joe D.

Bruce... I hate to disagree about the writing detracting from the postcard.


I would much rather have a postally used postcard than a gem-untouched / no writing version.

It is not even close.




I couldn't care less about the number grade on postcards.

In fact, I requested an Authentic on my 1903 Astoria Card. whereas it probably would have gotten a 20 or 30 or whatever the top is for SGC with regard to a card with writing on it.



edit to say: re-reading your post Bruce I think you are saying some people look for gem mint examples / writing would detract (not that it was your particular preference). So, I would disagree with those people (not necessarily you).

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Posted By: Mark

I would pay more for the ungraded and/or postally-used postcard. I realize I'm in the vast minority here, but the postally used card is far more interesting and visually appealing to me. I completely agree with Greg's comment above, and if I came across one I liked (which happened to be graded), the first thing I would do would be to crack it out of its slab. I have yet to find a Bar Code that goes well with the item being housed inside... would much prefer a tasteful framing job and/or creative display, any day of the week.

The 3rd party graders wield way too much power, and (from my observations) are wrong more often than not. I have seen countless examples of blurry/unfocussed images being graded higher than cards with perfect registration and far greater appeal... just because the ugly card's corners were a tiny bit sharper.

Who cares about someone else's opinion anyway? The stock that collectors are putting in PSA/SGC (with the grossly inflated prices they pay) is beyond me. I guess most people just need to be told when something is good, because they can't determine it themselves.

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Posted By: Steve M.

An assigned numerical grade is irrelevant to me. Any numerical grade which evidences that the card has not been altered is fine with me. I do recognize that for some the value difference between an SGC 60 Novelty Cutlery Cobb versus an SGC 10 graded one is an important consideration. If the only difference between the two is that the SGC 10 was postally used and the SGC 60 not, then I guess if one wants to pay 5X for the SGC 60, well it's your money.

While I would probably "prefer" a postcard not to be postally used, if it is it doesn't bother me and in some cases adds interest to the piece especially when there is baseball related content in the message.

I started having my postcards slabbed for protection purposes and because they look so nice in the SGC holders. It is also fun for me to have them in the Registry for people to see and enjoy even if it happens to be the only Registry set for the issue.

Finally, for me it's the card and how it presents, not the grade assigned.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

As per intent of issue, I like a nice handwritten note on a postcard, but wouldn't want to to be all over the place or messy or the ink bleeding to the front. How is writing graded, anyway? For neatness and penmanship and tone of ink?

Grading a postcard is subjective-- taste in what one wants is subjective. If I like writing and postmark on a postcard, I'm not about to fault someone who prefers an unused one. In fact, a collector can reasonably like both kinds equally.

The grading should be sane and consistent and methods known, if there is grading. From there, the buyer decides whether or not the handwriting and postmark is desirable.

Not everthing in this world is a baseball card and should judged and graded as if it's a baseball card. A Topps and a postcard are a lot alike and can be judged for physical condition, but they were made for different purposes. A postcard was made and expected to have writing and stamps on it, a Topps was not. The presence of a postal stamp on a Topps card is judged differently than a stamp on a postcard. Just as the presence of dirt stains on a Topps and a game used Yankees jersey are judged differently. Can you believe it that the game used jersey collector finds authentic dirt stains to be desirable and will pay more for them?

I've mused about the professional grading of cards and determining of a grade is subjective. Does the presence of a postmark and stamp lower the grade? Depends on how you look at it. Does the presence of neat handwriting raise or lower the condition? Depends on how you look at it. These questions can't be answered objectively. One's answer involves aesthetics, personal taste, upbringing, what one collects (Document collectors want historical letters and signatures and postal documentations, so don't want a blank postcard). Some will consider writing as a positive and some and some a detriment to condition and quality and, guess what, neither is right or wrong. At sale, describing the physical condition and picturing the writing and stamps (or lack thereof) is important and a good way to portray the card and it's condition. Someone saying "Card is Near Mint but (or and) has a note and stamp" is a reasonable way to describe state. Describing a postcard's as grade of 3 or 10 or A or B or Hexon is almost silly.

Now, as already noted, if you know how a graded grades than you know the bias in the system. If a company lowers the grade by 3 points if there is writing, then you know the grade was lowered by 3 points due to the writing.

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Posted By: Mark

Very well said, David.... great summation of the differences between Cards and PCs!

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

The only thing I would add, though, is that neither the PC or the Topps were "meant" to be graded. I suppose if Topps had the incentive, they could always sell their cards already graded for a higher price.

I always wonder what guys like Ruth, Cobb and Hooper would have thought about the grading of cards. Something tells me they would have thought it was nuts.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

People, including I, tend to like items that are in nicer condition-- Who prefers a Pete Rose rookie with a grease stain or a figurine chipped? I believe some collectors sincerely like things in pristine condition. However, professional grading and the graded card hobby often is a simply a device to make the common appear rare. I mean, what's the point to get a 1981 Fleer common graded a 10 other than as an attempt to make it appear 'rarer' than 50,000 examples of the card. A T206 Ty Cobb Tobacco is rare. To make a 1981 Fleer valued as rare, you need an alchemist, a hypnotist and Hollywood agent -- and that's were professional grading comes in.

Sometimes "rare in this grade" means "rare in this grade." Sometimes it means "If you ignore the opposition's six touchdowns, we won the game."

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

David, great post.
I'm still trying to figure out those "Rare" Mantle rookie cards.

Although, in regards to what you wrote, I have to admit that if I ran across a program with known and documentable Tris Speaker tobacco dribble all over it, I would probably want it over a clean example

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Posted By: Michael Steele

Greg,

I agree with you that Ruth and Hooper etc would deem grading as "nuts". However, back in their day, I am positive there were no "card doctors" altering cards in every form known to make a profit. This is the only reason I accept grading and I know, there are still altered cards in holders but it is a better system then we had 15 years back (IMO).

This is a great discussion on grading postcards. I agree that grading is really kind of silly regarding postcards. Maybe a simple authentic or not authentic grade is the way to go on PC's. For me, the number grade means nothing on PC's but it's nice to know the PC is real.

Michael

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

The easiest way for the Grading Companies to do this would be to grade the cards with either "Unused" or "Postally Used" on the slip and then graded on their merits (for a postally used card the card could be graded as if the writing were not present).
-Rhett

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

Whilst we are amenable to Rhett's suggestion, we believe that there are a large number
of major collectors who truly care what SGC and PSA thinks. Most major auction houses
would not think twice about having a post card graded- especially if it was one whose
value was $1000 or more.

Grading can be helpful. We asked SGC to grade 15 rare post cards from our collection.
While several came back with high grades, a few (with writing) received grades of Authentic.
However, one of more treasured post cards came back as trimmed. We were fortunate to be able
to return it to the dealer who sold it to us.

It is interesting that people raise the question about writing/non writing. While post cards
are not baseball cards- those baseball card sets with coupons= i.e. Zeenuts, Red Man Tobacco
and 1959 Yoo Hoo have cards graded with and without coupons. Cards in high grades with
coupons sell for 3 -6 times as much as those without coupons.

It may not all be about the money, but one of the ways that new postcards will surface is
if they become more valuable and their condition and authenticity is affirmed

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Wesley

"While several came back with high grades, a few (with writing) received grades of Authentic."

The writing is not the reason for the authentic grade. A postcard with writing can still grade as high as SGC 20 or 30. There must be other reasons why the postcards did not receive number grades.

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Posted By: Rawn Hill

I view the correspondence on the PC to be an added value to the card and the postmark helps to date it as authentic.

Rawn

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Posted By: martindl

I think the easy answer is to look to the postcard hobby itself. This is Barr's grading scale, used pretty much throughout the hobby.


M - Mint: A perfect card just as it comes from the printing press. No marks, bends or creases. No writing or postmark. A clean and fresh card. Seldom seen.
NM - Near Mint: Like mint, but very very light aging or very slight discoloration from being in an album for many years. Not as fresh looking.
EX - Excellent: Like mint in appearance with no bends or creases, nor rounded or blunt corners. May be postally used or unused and with writing and postmark only on address side. A clean, fresh card onpicture side.
VG - Very Good: Corners may be just a bit blunt or rounded. Almost undetachable crease or bend that does not detract from overall appearance of picture side. May be writing or postally used on address side. A very collectible card.
G - Good: Corners may be noticeably blunt or rounded with noticeably slight bends or creases. May be postally used or writing on address side. Less than VG.
AV - Average: Creases and bends more pronounced. May be writing in margins on picture side. Postmark may show through from address side but not on main portion of picture. Corners more rounded.
PR - Poor: Card is intact. Excess soil, stained, cancel may affect picture with writing on either side. Could be a scarce card hard to find in any condition with heavy creases.
SF - Space Filler: Poor condition as above and may have corners torn or corners missing, etc. and breaks. Least desirable of all of the above.