Are there any player's autographs that you refuse to collect?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I never said steroids do no good. I was just stating that they aren't going to improve those I stated. Obviously they will make you bigger, stronger, not faster necessarily, and help recover from injuries/surgeries, but they aren't going to help those factors I mentioned above.

Bonds took them because he was jealous of McGwire and Sosa and wanted to chase records, smaller name players took them following injuries so they can get the paycheck to afford life after baseball and to compete, others did so to be the best and to get the richest of paychecks.

But if you looked at the list of players who were caught taking steroids, a lot of them had marginal improvement because they lacked having been born with the perfect genes like Bonds for example. Bonds' eyes were so good, he could pick-up the seems on the pitchers release point and know what type of pitch was coming. And based off of where his arm would be angled, he knew whether that pitch would be in his zone or not. He never struck out, and had a pretty good average. Obviously top tier players were blessed with those abilities.

[mr2686]

There's a lot of us out here that have good hand eye coordination, and played one form of ball or another for several years, but that doesn't mean we were good enough to catch up to a 92 mph fastball while also being able to react to a curve. Due to the fact that a steroid user can work out longer, harder and more often with less muscle recovery time, bat speed is increased allowing the batter that extra fraction of a second to wait and identify a pitch. I'd say that's helping the batter be better.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by mr2686

There's a lot of us out here that have good hand eye coordination, and played one form of ball or another for several years, but that doesn't mean we were good enough to catch up to a 92 mph fastball while also being able to react to a curve. Due to the fact that a steroid user can work out longer, harder and more often with less muscle recovery time, bat speed is increased allowing the batter that extra fraction of a second to wait and identify a pitch. I'd say that's helping the batter be better.

There is a huge difference between good hand eye coordination, and unbelievable hand eye coordination. Just cause you can swing the bat harder doesn't mean it's going to help you hit the ball by any means. You still have to be able to do everything else before you swing.

But I do agree to avoid an argument, it will enhance what you can enhance if used properly. Being bigger, stronger doesn't necessarily always translates well on a diamond compared to other sports. Baseball is about flexibility and range of motion. Get too large in upper body, can't really throw the ball well or swing the bat with as much fluidity.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

But we are getting a lot off topic, sorry my bad :P.

I do not avoid people, each player is a piece of history. Those who avoid OJ in my opinion is understandable. Why don't you avoid Cobb for that matter, he killed someone...Those of you who don't collect OJ, do you collect Ray Lewis? Killed someone. Donte Stallworth? Hit and run. Just curious, if you can collect Cobb, you can collect anyone else. And for those stating proof on Cobb, there were previous postings a while back on here you can use as reference.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Being bigger, stronger doesn't necessarily always translates well on a diamond compared to other sports. Baseball is about flexibility and range of motion. Get too large in upper body, can't really throw the ball well or swing the bat with as much fluidity.

I'll agree with that...just look at Ruben Sierra. He got as big as a house and had to start his bat swing in a different zip code.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by mr2686

I'll agree with that...just look at Ruben Sierra. He got as big as a house and had to start his bat swing in a different zip code.

That is great example! Spot on! Thank you!

[J.McMurry]

Whoaaa now Compadre, That Cobb killing is an urban legend that I believe has been proven false by a SABRE member. As far as Lewis goes,If I remember ,he was only proven to have been at the killing, not actually committing the murder,but I could be wrong on that as I didnt really follow the case that close.

In the end, just collect,or dont collect who you want. Thats a beautiful thing.

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Bonds' eyes were so good, he could pick-up the seems on the pitchers release point and know what type of pitch was coming. And based off of where his arm would be angled, he knew whether that pitch would be in his zone or not. He never struck out, and had a pretty good average. Obviously top tier players were blessed with those abilities.

Before he started taking steroids, Bonds averaged 90 strikeouts per 162 games played, and batted .289. His amazing eyes apparently didn't kick in until he was 36 years old, at which point his strikeouts dropped by nearly a third and his batting average jumped 35 points. I'm guessing that's also when the steroid regimen began.

Pre-steroids, Bonds was an excellent player, but I see no statistical measures that would make the pre-steroids Bonds the greatest player ever. Adjusted for their different eras, Mays beats him in most categories.

Pre-steroids, Bonds won 1 HR title, 1 RBI crown, 0 batting titles. Even with steroids, he failed to hit .300 for his career, earned 4 fewer Gold Gloves than Mays while playing the easier outfield position, won only 1 RBI crown and a grand total of 2 HR titles. Also, despite playing 22 seasons, Bonds is not in the top 14 in All-Star nominations.

Had he not used steroids, I don't think he would have made it to 600 home runs, and I don't think he would have managed much better than a .280 lifetime BA. He would have had his 500-500 accomplishment, 3 or 4 MVPs, and maybe another Gold Glove or two - and I think he would have been regarded as one of the top 20 position players ever (behind Ruth, Wagner, Cobb, Williams, Mays, Gehrig, Musial, Mantle, Aaron, etc.).

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

Before he started taking steroids, Bonds averaged 90 strikeouts per 162 games played, and batted .289. His amazing eyes apparently didn't kick in until he was 36 years old, at which point his strikeouts dropped by nearly a third and his batting average jumped 35 points. I'm guessing that's also when the steroid regimen began.

Pre-steroids, Bonds was an excellent player, but I see no statistical measures that would make the pre-steroids Bonds the greatest player ever. Adjusted for their different eras, Mays beats him in most categories.

Pre-steroids, Bonds won 1 HR title, 1 RBI crown, 0 batting titles. Even with steroids, he failed to hit .300 for his career, earned 4 fewer Gold Gloves than Mays while playing the easier outfield position, won only 1 RBI crown and a grand total of 2 HR titles. Also, despite playing 22 seasons, Bonds is not in the top 14 in All-Star nominations.

Had he not used steroids, I don't think he would have made it to 600 home runs, and I don't think he would have managed much better than a .280 lifetime BA. He would have had his 500-500 accomplishment, 3 or 4 MVPs, and maybe another Gold Glove or two - and I think he would have been regarded as one of the top 20 position players ever (behind Ruth, Wagner, Cobb, Williams, Mays, Gehrig, Musial, Mantle, Aaron, etc.).

Steroids do not make your vision better!!! Players just get better, for the jump in average that is easily explained by HE WALKED MORE! Obviously if you walk a ton more, your strikeouts will go down and your average will go up naturally.

It doesn't matter how many times you lead the league in a statistical category, because his MVP's show otherwise, that's flawed thinking. He was in TOP 5 in MVP voting from 1990-2000, that's 10 YEARS of consistency, and won it 3 times, second once, and should have won more if you compare the winner's stats to his since that's what your basis is on.

Bonds easily would have hit 600+ home runs, there is no way using steroids will give you 200+ home runs, or EVERYONE would do that. If Bonds didn't get as many free passes as he did, he would have been closer to 900-1000 home runs. He average 140 walks a year! That's absurd! Usually it's "good" if a player can manage half that many, or almost half that. One year he had over 200 walks, that is a lot of wasted at bats. Bonds IS the most feared hitter of ALL TIME, plain and simple, and while he didn't win home run titles, he couldn't. Hard to win when you have hundreds of less at bats due to walks.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

And Ruth being mentioned everywhere as the best baseball player ever, IMO is a JOKE. He was a one dimenshional player, that's it. He ONLY could hit. A god awful fielder, base runner. I don't consider him top 5. When I look at best players ever, I look at players who can do it all, the five tools, Ruth was waaaaaay off from that.

[David Atkatz]

Why don't you look at Ruth's record, and read a bit about what his contemporaries had to say before you embarrass yourself again with another stupid post.

[mr2686]

Thanks David...I was too much in shock to respond to his post.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Why don't you look at Ruth's record, and read a bit about what his contemporaries had to say before you embarrass yourself again with another stupid post.

What so you think a players' opinion is going to matter? Many players said Feller was the best pitcher ever, as well as hardest throwing.

Ruth's record, all hitting since he really wasn't a pitcher all that long. That's it. Ruth was BARELY 1 WAR defensively each year. That's terrible for someone who's supposedly the best baseball player ever. Obviously Ruth was a tremendous pitcher, but he only had about 3-3 1/2 full seasons as a pitcher. He could field, and he couldn't run. He was a one-dimensional offensive player, again because he was a pitcher too long.

Plus, this was my opinion, didn't realize my opinion affected you so much to warrant your response.

[David Atkatz]

You just don't care how ignorant you sound, do you?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

And Ruth being mentioned everywhere as the best baseball player ever, IMO is a JOKE. He was a one dimenshional player, that's it. He ONLY could hit. A god awful fielder, base runner. I don't consider him top 5. When I look at best players ever, I look at players who can do it all, the five tools, Ruth was waaaaaay off from that.

HOF Rookies,
Maybe you should look at his career pitching statistics as well. The Big Bam was more than a one dimensional player. If he continued down the path of pitching he was good enough that he might have been a HOF pitcher, FWIW.

Just my 2 cents...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

HOF Rookies,
Maybe you should look at his career pitching statistics as well. The Big Bam was more than a one dimensional player. If he continued down the path of pitching he was good enough that he might have been a HOF pitcher, FWIW.

Just my 2 cents...

I have said multiple times in my previous posts saying I'm disregarding his pitching. I know he was a hell of a pitcher, and most likely would have been a HOF'er as a pitcher if healthy. But, when he played the field, not pitching, one-dimensional.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

But this topic is getting boring. Good debate all