Thoughts re PSA8 T206 Honus Wagner Card

[WarHoundR69]

I've read many threads/posts regarding this card.

IMHO opinion this is PSA's original sin and many collectors will never be willing to forgive PSA for grading this card.

But the Market has accepted the card - each time it sells it is substancially higher than the previous sale price.

The provenance & exact grading details of this card are murky at best (And yes I have read "THE CARD").

So 15 or so years ago PSA used this card to get it's start - and the company is forever condemmed due to that original sin.

Customer service is listed as one of PSA's weakest point but not in my experience.

Long story short, I'm a big time Ripley's BION collector. I found a 1953 Quaker Oats card in a PSA5 holder that was listed as a 1953 Parkhurst BIOn card.

Email me for the details (Or see my posts on the NonSport side).

PSA bent over backwards to reslab the card correctly & both PSA & I learned what the other knew about this obscure set - it is not listed in the NonSport Bible.

Just some random thoughts.

[drc]

"Am I the only one who sees the emperor has holes in his underwear?"
-- Bud Bundy

Just a couple of days ago had lunch with Czech friend, and asked her what it was like growing up under communism. She said you were taught to lie. She said in school they taught you lies and went you went home you'd learned the truth. But the people at home who told you the truth told you never to repeat it. If you repeated the truth you'd get in trouble and wouldn't be accepted into college.

[WarHoundR69]

Speaking of Al Bundy has anyone ever noticed the image of Bronco Nagurski on his 1935 National Chickle Rookie card is the spitting image of Al Bundy - Polk High's 5 touchdown in one game star player?

[Bill Stone]

I think it was 4 touchdowns but still a remarkable lifetime accomplishment for Al Bundy !

[danmckee]

look up the thread about the lost Magie error card on the old board. Yea, they are awesome!

[WarHoundR69]

Sort of like SGC's fiasco with Mr. Mint & Keith Olberman.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by WarHoundR69

Sort of like SGC's fiasco with Mr. Mint & Keith Olberman.

I don't think the PSA losing a Magee and then claiming they never received it and SGC grading an altered card are the same thing. While I use both PSA and SGC, both companies have graded altered cards on mistake. I have not, however, heard of SGC losing a card and then claiming it was never submitted to them.

I think SGC's Doyle is more akin to PSA's Wagner.

[benjulmag]

Given all the credible questions raised about the PSA 8 Wagner and that it remains PSA's signature item, IMO the proper thing to do is to re-grade it according PSA's current standards. If if fact it does not exhibit such signs suggesting it was after-the-fact cut from a sheet (and then subsequently possibly trimmed), it can be re-slabbed with an appropriate numerical grade. If though it exhibits such characteristics that would cause PSA to grade as an "A" another currently submitted card with identical characteristics, then it should be given an "A". This approach makes moot what did or did not happen in the past and evaluates the card based on factual criteria.

Oh, and right, like I really think this is going to happen.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Given all the credible questions raised about the PSA 8 Wagner and that it remains PSA's signature item, IMO the proper thing to do is to re-grade it according PSA's current standards. If if fact it does not exhibit such signs suggesting it was after-the-fact cut from a sheet (and then subsequently possibly trimmed), it can be re-slabbed with an appropriate numerical grade. If though it exhibits such characteristics that would cause PSA to grade as an "A" another currently submitted card with identical characteristics, then it should be given an "A". This approach makes moot what did or did not happen in the past and evaluates the card based on factual criteria.

Oh, and right, like I really think this is going to happen.

All PSA has to do is leave it in the 8 holder and put a (Handcut) qualifier on the flip. That satisfies everyone (including me, not that it matters)....and the value probably goes up again!!

[barrysloate]

Leon- that wouldn't satisfy everyone...the current owner might not like it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

8T?

[barrysloate]

Peter- is that short for "8 trimmed?"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Peter- is that short for "8 trimmed?"

Yip.

[danmckee]

I believe SGC took care of the Mint/Olbermann fiasco. I had to sue your buddy Orlando and watch him stand there in court and state that he had no knowledge of them ever losing a card before when in fact, I ran an ad in SCD and SEVERAL people answered having lost cards and having spoken directly to Mr. Orlando. He also claimed no knowledge of the bogus M101-4 Ruth they graded when Adam crossed him on it, that was priceless!

Again, both companies make mistakes, it is how you handle the mistakes that separate these 2 companies by light years!!!!!

[danmckee]

How about the T205 Graham I had labelled as Cubs I bought off of ebay with no picture. The label read cubs and the card was Rustlers. ok I can understand the mistake, no sweat. I take it over to PSA and they kindly relabel it for me to rustlers. I said what about the fact that I paid for a 3X expensive variation??? They told me "sorry about your luck"

[danmckee]

Let's see, I am president of a grading company and we have graded a card that Rob Lifson returns to us stating it is bad. Yes Rob lifson who has forgotten more about vintage cards than everyone at PSA added together.

I tell him that we stand behind our grade and that any other auction house will auction the card. The card (FAKE NODGRASS IN PSA HOLDER) goes to Mastro and they put it up for auction. Dan Mckee works with FBI to shut this fraud down before someone else gets burned.

Joe and PSA cut another check $10K to the consigner and destroy the bogus card.

Need I go on?

[danmckee]

On the back of the PSA submission forms at the time of the lost Magie there was a statement that said something like: If you win a judgement against us in court, we will pay your legal fees"

I call Joe orlando after winning my suit for the Magie to collect my legal fees based on this written statement and he screams at me stating I trashed him on this board so he isn't paying me and then hangs up on me.

Now that is true customer service at its best!!!

[tedzan]

Unlike most of you, I do not collect graded cards. Most of my complete sets from 1887-1987 were put
together back in the "paleolithic" era.

But, this does not infer that I am ignorant of the Grading industry, or graded cards. When I buy them, I
usually crack them open. And, I've seen some egregiously graded PSA and SGC cards. Here are some of
the most notorious examples......

SGC graded re-backed (Red HINDU) T206 Mathewson portrait....(impossible F/B combo)

SGC graded (obviously) fake T206 Doyle error that was sold to KO

? ? graded fake T206 Doyle error with a POLAR BEAR back....(impossible F/B combo)

PSA graded re-backed (Piedmont 150) T206 Cobb (bat off)....(impossible F/B combo)

PSA8 T206 Honus Wagner....I can say this since I saw this card in its raw form at the Philly Show back
in the mid-1980's.


T-Rex TED

[Peter_Spaeth]

You saw the Wagner before Bill Mastro purchased it? Do you recall who owned it at the time?

[tedzan]

You asked......
" You saw the Wagner before Bill Mastro purchased it? Do you recall who owned it at the time? "

I didn't say that.

I first saw this card when Mastro was shopping it around at the Philly Show (prior to the Show's start)
to most of the dealers staying at the George Washington Motor Lodge.

[Wesley]

Ted,
When you saw the Wagner at the Philly Show, was it in it's current state/size?
Wes

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

You asked......
" You saw the Wagner before Bill Mastro purchased it? Do you recall who owned it at the time? "

I didn't say that.

I first saw this card when Mastro was shopping it around at the Philly Show (prior to the Show's start)
to most of the dealers staying at the George Washington Motor Lodge.

Ted thanks for clarifying, I was making an inference about when and by whom the card allegedly was altered based on what I had read/heard.

[cyseymour]

Here is Rob Lifson's comments on the card:

"I believe the card was cut from a sheet, as opposed to a strip. The guy who originally owned the card has been quoted as saying that it was cut from a sheet, and everything about the card, including its pristine appearance and slightly imperfect cut, is consistent with that, so I really don’t think there’s any question about it. I’ve always said, and was even quoted in newspaper articles years ago, that there is no way this particular card was ever packaged in a pack of cigarettes, and that it had to have been saved by someone involved with the printing. If it wasn’t cut from a sheet, it probably wouldn’t look so great! And as authors Michael O’Keefe and Teri Thompson so poetically suggest at the end of the book “The Card,” the Gretzky/McNall T206 Wagner is so unique and so much better looking than any other T206 Wagner that it tramples the rules that govern millions of other cards. It may be cut from a sheet, but it’s still the greatest baseball card in the world! By the way, I’d strongly recommend anyone interested in not just the T206 Honus Wagner but the hobby in general to read “The Card.” This is an extremely important book relating to the entire card and memorabilia hobby."

[Peter_Spaeth]

To my understanding, there are further questions as to whether -- irrespective of its origins -- it was further trimmed along the way.