OT: Who should be in the Hall that isn't

[HOF Auto Rookies]

This is a huge topic of debate, yet fun as I love hearing opinions as to who else should be considered for the Hall.

I am and always will be a monstrous supporter of Jimmy Ryan, and I'm saddened he still isn't considered. But, I digress, who else do you think should be in the Hall (outside of Jackson and Rose)?

This list is for intended on players no longer eligible.

My list is:

Jimmy Ryan (for sure)
Joe Start (borderline)
Dale Murphy (little past borderline)
Bill Dahlen (close to my magic vote)
Dick Allen (borderline, more towards no)
Lou Whitaker (past borderline)
Ted Simmons (close)
Joe Torre (close)
Riggs Stephenson (I would vote for him)

The list will go on, these are the ones I can think of briefly. Because I mentioned them, doesn't mean I think they should be in (except a few), I think we should take a little longer look.

It would be fun to also look at active modern players:

Pujols (Yes)
Miguel Cabrera (Yes)
Jeter (Yes)
Kershaw (looking good)
Mauer (if he can put up a few more good years, Yes)
Trout (way early, but easily on pace)
A-Rod (Yes)
Carlos Beltran (few more years)
Matt Holliday (see Beltran)
David Wright (No)
Longoria and Tulo (stay healthy then maybe)
Felix Hernandez (see Kershaw)
Giancao Stanton (will hit 600+ to get in)
Justin Upton (consistency issues, but if he reverts to MVP form, chances good)
David Ortiz (if he gets in so should Edgar)
Torii Hunter (no, close but very fun to watch him for years)
Alfonso Soriano (see Beltran)
Josh Hamilton (no, damn drugs)
Joe Nathan (no)
Adam Dunn (he will hit 500, but not really 'elite', coin toss for me, but I like him)
Starlin Castro (Yes, he will get 3k+ hits)
Jimmy Rollins (close, please get to 3k)
Ichiro (Yes)
Chase Utley (stay healthy, decent shot)
Ryan Howard (see Utley, pray for 500 HR's, not likely)
Prince Fielder (get back to elite, hit 500+ then in)
Johan Santana (love him, but unfortunately no)
Morneau (if only no concussion, but no)
Peavy (no, loved him in SD)
Lincecum (was good, no)
Freeman, Harper, Machado (too early, health issues except Freeman)
Jayson Heyward (all the tools, no clue what is wrong, Liriano syndrome)
Raul Ibanez (no, thought career was over 7+ years ago)
Mark Buehrle (no, still surprises me)
David Price (need more)
Stephen Drew (no)

Let's make this fun!






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[drazz5]

Barry Bonds

[ATP]

Larry Doyle
Edgar Martinez
Vern Stephens (maybe)

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by drazz5

Barry Bonds

No. Never.

[drazz5]

Originally Posted by wazoo

No. Never.

If anyone at all from the steroid era is going to be allowed into the hall, then i see no reason as to why Barry Bonds should not be allowed.

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by drazz5

If anyone at all from the steroid era is going to be allowed into the hall, then i see no reason as to why Barry Bonds should not be allowed.

Bonds was a HOFer before he juiced and ruined it after he did

[oldjudge]

Why isn't Gil Hodges in the HOF? Because Don Mattingly isn't in yet. Mattingly deserves it at least as much as Hodges. Both were half a career clear HOFers, and both had sub-HOF second halves of their careers. They are remarkably similar players.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by drazz5

Barry Bonds

No way - Poster boy for those feeling entitled. When he and Griffey, Jr. came to the career fork-in-the-road, we all know who went what direction and only one of those leads to upstate New York.

He already got his applause...he refused to wait.

[Jlighter]

I would say Tommy John and Gil Hodges deserve to be in.

Castro and A-Rod will not be elected.

[clydepepper]

Minnie Minoso
Luis Tiant
Thurman Munson
George Van Haltren
Bob Caruthers


PEDers...NO - a thousand times NO!!

People always say that they deserve it because of what they did on the field.

I have what I feel are two strong arguments against their inclusion:

1.) Most importantly, they made the decision to go after honors, fame and accolades DURING their careers, instead of reaping those rewards in retirement...so why should they be HONORED twice?

2.) As long as guys like those on my list above are on the outside, cheaters should not be allowed in without a ticket.

[cardsfan73]

Oppps totally missed the outside of Jackson & Rose part! Btw Joe Torre is already on the Hall Of Fame.

Honestly I am a huge fan of a lot of the players mentioned (Murphy, Simmons & Whitaker) but I can't agree that any of them are Hall Of Famers.

Oliva was a lifetime .300 hitter & had a great stretch of about 8 years, but over all I don't see his career numbers being HOF worthy. Am I missing something with him?

[clydepepper]

...and Tony Oliva

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

PEDers...NO - a thousand times NO!!

People always say that they deserve it because of what they did on the field.

I have what I feel are two strong arguments against their inclusion:

1.) Most importantly, they made the decision to go after honors, fame and accolades DURING their careers, instead of reaping those rewards in retirement...so why should they be HONORED twice?

2.) As long as guys like those on my list above are on the outside, cheaters should not be allowed in without a ticket.

Pretty sure I disagree with you, but I also have no problem with that or with your overall sentiment/opinion. This is a very decisive issue, and I have trouble saying either side is wrong. Different people have very different POVs on this.

Without getting into the details of my logic (typing from a mobile device... But may add more later), I think the toughest thing with your position is- where do you draw the line? Do you have to have tested positive and/or been disciplined by MLB's policy? If so, you would be rewarding a lot of people who were just better at beating tests (can't help but be suspicious of Pujols... Based not only on appearance, but on things I've heard from a couple pretty inside sources... And frankly feel we should be suspicious about anyone now that lean muscle guys like Braun, or speed guys like Furcal have been caught). Can you omit people based on circumstantial evidence alone (this seems unfair and Piazza comes to mind)? It's just very tough, and then what bugs me more is that popularity begins to play too big a role... And many writers seem to revel in their role as gate keeper. I don't want to blast writers in general, but there are surely a lot of weasels in that bunch too.

A few "yes" for HOF--

Mussina given I think 250 should be the new 300... Hoping Hudon can rack up a few more to get serious consideration.

Crime Dog McGriff. This guy was so underrated. He hit 30 a year for over a decade, starting when 30 was a lot.. And for many years was one of the top 2-3 power hitters in the game. 490+ is close enough.

Also think Bonds/Clemens/etc should be there eventually.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

And frankly feel we should be suspicious about anyone now that lean muscle guys like Braun, or speed guys like Furcal have been caught).

Braun didn't use a performance enhancer, though, Ian, and I wish the sites like ESPN and Yahoo sports, who were so quick to condemn him absent of the facts, breaking the story during what was supposed to be a confidential appeals process, and before Shyam Das had even ruled on his appeal, would expend even half the energy they did then to report the truth.

The substance he took was used to accelerate healing of a pretty serious calf injury that had been bothering him all season. The bottom line is that he broke the rules, and yes, he should have been suspended, as he was at the end of last season. He let Brewers fans down big time. He let me down. I've been the biggest Ryan Braun fan since he came to the Majors in 2007. I loved it when he extended his contract, and stayed in Milwaukee for far less than he could have made if he tested free agency. And he's done an awful lot of good in Milwaukee, including working with a lot of charities. Of course, you never hear any of these stories. All you hear is how Braun is this terrible human being that "threw a little guy under the bus to save himself". Braun made a dumb mistake. But he's hardly the pariah the media have tried to make him out to be. So much of the crap that you read about him has been made up. But, there's nobody to hold ESPN's or Yahoo's feet to the fire. So, when Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports prints an article that Ryan Braun secretly contacted Matt Kemp, Joey Votto and Troy Tulowitzki to ask them for their public support, asserting that collector Dino Laurenzi Jr was an anti-semitic Cubs fan, everybody trashed Braun. When both Votto and Tulowitzki came out the very next day, calling the story pure fiction, did Yahoo or ESPN run that story? Of course not. Joey Votto even offered to provide his phone records to prove that no conversation between himself and Braun happened. But the damage had already been done.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Braun didn't use a performance enhancer, though, Ian, and I wish the sites like ESPN and Yahoo sports, who were so quick to condemn him absent of the facts, breaking the story during what was supposed to be a confidential appeals process, and before Shyam Das had even ruled on his appeal, would expend even half the energy they did then to report the truth.

The substance he took was used to accelerate healing of a pretty serious calf injury that had been bothering him all season. The bottom line is that he broke the rules, and yes, he should have been suspended, as he was at the end of last season. He let Brewers fans down big time. He let me down. I've been the biggest Ryan Braun fan since he came to the Majors in 2007. I loved it when he extended his contract, and stayed in Milwaukee for far less than he could have made if he tested free agency. And he's done an awful lot of good in Milwaukee, including working with a lot of charities. Of course, you never hear any of these stories. All you hear is how Braun is this terrible human being that "threw a little guy under the bus to save himself". Braun made a dumb mistake. But he's hardly the pariah the media have tried to make him out to be. So much of the crap that you read about him has been made up. But, there's nobody to hold ESPN's or Yahoo's feet to the fire. So, when Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports prints an article that Ryan Braun secretly contacted Matt Kemp, Joey Votto and Troy Tulowitzki to ask them for their public support, asserting that collector Dino Laurenzi Jr was an anti-semitic Cubs fan, everybody trashed Braun. When both Votto and Tulowitzki came out the very next day, calling the story pure fiction, did Yahoo or ESPN run that story? Of course not. Joey Votto even offered to provide his phone records to prove that no conversation between himself and Braun happened. But the damage had already been done.

Yeah Bill, sorry, I remember we'd discussed that in depth a while back. Just goes to show how far an irresponsibly reported black mark can go (damn writers). That said, think my point still applies- we probably should be suspicious of everyone. And keeping that in mind, think we should also be cautious not to over scritinize/tear down certain players (Bonds, etc), while seemingly forgiving others based on their popularity (Big Papi).

[the 'stache]

As to the question at hand, who should be in the Hall that isn't? I don't think the answer to this is easy. Not at all. People who aren't in Cooperstown have been vetted. Their careers have been looked over with a fine tooth comb, and for some reason, they didn't meet that standard. Are there a few players that I feel are worthy of another look? Yes. There are always exceptions. Hell, look at the NFL Hall of Fame. Jerry Kramer, the great offensive guard for the Lombardi Packers of the 60s...5 time First Team All-Pro, 3-time Pro Bowler, 5 time World Champion, voted to both the NFL 1960's All Decade Team, and the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team. Inexplicably, he's not in the Hall of Fame. But if it were up to me, I'd be removing more players than I'd be putting in. The Hall is supposed to be for the very best of the best, and there are some people in there that got in because of cronyism.

Who would I consider going in?

That I'll have to think about.

[refz]

Nap Rucker
Gil Hodges
Ted Kluewzeski
Lee Smith

The above have my vote.

[toppcat]

Sy Berger

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

I would say Tommy John and Gil Hodges deserve to be in.

Castro and A-Rod will not be elected.

No way should A-Rod even be considered. And that's coming from a Yankee's fan.

[cardsfan73]

If there was a Hall OF Really Really Good Players a lot of these guys would be in! As far as modern guys I think Vlad Guerrero has a good shot.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Stephen Drew? Adrian Beltre is probably more eligible than 75% of that modern list, yet isn't accounted for.


Nap Rucker
Marty Marion
Omar Vizquel
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez
Albert Belle
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff -- agree with Ian; its a travesty he's not looked at more favorably.

[Peter_Spaeth]

None of the above.

[bobbvc]

Still waiting for a "real" Hall of Fame. 40 man roster. If someone goes in, someone comes out. (Ok, they could just move down an aisle). But would love to see a HOF where there weren't any guys "on the bubble".

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

This is a huge topic of debate, yet fun as I love hearing opinions as to who else should be considered for the Hall.

I am and always will be a monstrous supporter of Jimmy Ryan, and I'm saddened he still isn't considered. But, I digress, who else do you think should be in the Hall (outside of Jackson and Rose)?

This list is for intended on players no longer eligible.

My list is:
Joe Torre (close)

Huh?? Torre was unanimously elected into the Baseball Hall of Fame by the 16-member Veterans Committee on December 9, 2013. He will be inducted on July 27, 2014

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Not as a player


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[HOF Auto Rookies]

Sorry for not clarifying


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[HOF Auto Rookies]

Sorry, I know I left a LOT of guys off, but those were the ones that popped in my head. And, because I listed them doesn't mean I want them in, those current guys are the best who will be on the ballot more than once most likely


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[ATP]

Glad I am not the only one who said Vern Stephens.

[wolf441]

If you were a baseball fan in the late 1970's and someone told you that not only would Steve Garvey not be in the Hall of Fame, but that he wouldn't even merit discussion, you'd never have believed them...

[brewing]

Garvey - No
Hernandez - No
Parker - No
Morris - No
Mattingly - No
Simmons - No
Whitaker, Trammell, and Dick Allen - Yes

Whitaker & Trammell are on par with 1st balloters Sandberg & Larkin.
Dick Allen posted better numbers than the guys above.

[packs]

I've said it before but Don Mattingly was the best player of his generation. He was Pujols before Pujols. Yes, he got hurt. But there was no one better.

The HOF has awarded players with shortened careers before. Dizzy Dean had the promise of a HOFer but he didn't have a HOF career. The same is true for Rube Marquard (brief dominance) and Hack Wilson.

So why not Mattingly?

[bbcard1]

One that isn't mentioned often but I like is Maury Wills. Again, it all depends on what we collectively want as a hall of fame, but he had an MVP, a couple of world championships (like Maris) was an evolutionary player. Five time all star and a couple of gold gloves…his career cumulative offensive stats are probably about average for a Hall of Fame shortstop or a little above, I think most baseball fans would take him in his three year prime over any but the most elite of hall shortstops. Didn't do himself any favors after his career. I met him a couple of times and he was nice if a little curmudogny.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I've said it before but Don Mattingly was the best player of his generation. He was Pujols before Pujols. Yes, he got hurt. But there was no one better.

The HOF has awarded players with shortened careers before. Dizzy Dean had the promise of a HOFer but he didn't have a HOF career. The same is true for Rube Marquard (brief dominance) and Hack Wilson.

So why not Mattingly?

But by that logic, if Red Schoendienst and George Kell, why not Julio Franco and Omar Vizquel? If Chick Hafey, why not Andres Galarraga? If Dean, why not Gooden, who I believe had just as many dominating seasons? I think arguments based on who is in -- which seemed to be the justification for the eventual induction of, for example, Rice and Dawson -- just lead one down the road of dilution.

[packs]

You don't think Vizquel is a HOFer?

Don Mattingly would not dilute the HOF. He was a HOFer and one of the most talented players ever to play first base. He is so much further up from Andres Gallaraga that they shouldn't be mentioned in the same argument. For reference even with a full career Gallaraga is ranked 70th on the first base list, with Mattingly at 36th.

Injuries didn't ruin Doc Gooden's career either. Doc Gooden ruined Doc Gooden's career.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So how do you explain this?
Hall of Fame
2001 BBWAA (28.2%)
2002 BBWAA (20.3%)
2003 BBWAA (13.7%)
2004 BBWAA (12.8%)
2005 BBWAA (11.4%)
2006 BBWAA (12.3%)
2007 BBWAA ( 9.9%)
2008 BBWAA (15.8%)
2009 BBWAA (11.9%)
2010 BBWAA (16.1%)
2011 BBWAA (13.6%)
2012 BBWAA (17.8%)
2013 BBWAA (13.2%)
2014 BBWAA ( 8.2%)

[brewing]

Originally Posted by packs

So why not Mattingly?

Mattingly was awesome from 84-87 and started a rapid decline from that peak.

Compare him to George Foster from 76-79 and beyond. If Mattingly belongs, than so does George Foster. Why isn't anyone clamouring for Foster?

The injustice is Dick Allen. From 1964-1974 he makes Garvey and Mattingly look like 2nd tier guys.

Why is that?
My theory is appearance. Black vs white and Hollywood looks vs whoa! Another theory could be NY and LA. Regardless, the numbers don't lie.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by brewing

Mattingly was awesome from 84-87 and started a rapid decline from that peak.

Compare him to George Foster from 76-79 and beyond. If Mattingly belongs, than so does George Foster. Why isn't anyone clamouring for Foster?

The injustice is Dick Allen. From 1964-1974 he makes Garvey and Mattingly look like 2nd tier guys.

Why is that?
My theory is appearance. Black vs white and Hollywood looks vs whoa! Another theory could be NY and LA. Regardless, the numbers don't lie.

Why is what? None of the guys you mentioned are in the hall of fame.

[brewing]

My point was that Mattingly and Garvey are brought up as Hall worthy way more often than Foster and Allen.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by brewing

My point was that Mattingly and Garvey are brought up as Hall worthy way more often than Foster and Allen.

Foster and Allen didn't play in NY or LA, at least not long enough.

Can all you Tommy John fans explain why you'd choose him and not Jim Kaat? I'm not seeing much difference.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by brewing

My point was that Mattingly and Garvey are brought up as Hall worthy way more often than Foster and Allen.

Dick Allen and Bob Johnson are so far and away the best hitters not in the Hall that there isn't a close next tier. Allen was a nightmare defensively and...unique...as an individual. Johnson holds the record for assists by a left fielder and seems to have had better than average range.

Tom C

[Peter_Spaeth]

Garvey's knocking at the door
Foster's ringing the bell
Johnson's knocking at the door
Allen's ringing the bell
Do me a favor
Open the Hall
Let em in

Luis Tiant
Tommy John
Colavito
Mattingly Don
T Oliva
Jimmy Wynn
Open the Hall
Let em in, in, in

[darkhorse9]

This thread fails without Dale Murphy on the top of the list.

[EvilKing00]

Bonds
Rose
Joe jackson
Gary shefield
Maddux
Pedro martinez
Chipper jones
Piazza