Condition sensitive pre-war card sets?

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Posted By: leon

I got to thinking about Dave F's question in the thread about the recession resoluteness of certain pre-war sets, concerning which sets are indeed condition sensitive. Since the other thread wasn't discussing condition to start with, I figure I will start a new thread about the condition sensitivity of certain sets. I know most of the thinner paper stock sets are very much condition sensitive. Maybe we can discuss E's and then T's. Here are some random thoughts of mine though I will keep my options open to change up a little as I hear some feedback...but these are my personal observations. These are very debatable too and it is to be expected that each person's answers are somewhat dissimilar. Remember this is not about true "rarity" but "condition rarity". From your experience with 1(low) to 10(high) on the scale of "sensitiveness"....(5 being medium and 10 being extremely condition sensitive) what are your thoughts on these sets?.......feel free to copy and paste then answer...or give feedback at your leisure....It's all fun my friends.....

1909-11.. E90 var. American Caramel (3 sets) 5
1908-10.. E91 var. American Caramel (3 sets) 5
1909 E92.. Nadja 6
1909 E92.. Nadja - St Louis 2
1909 E92.. Croft's Candy..red back 9
1909 E92.. Croft's Candy..blue back 7
1909 E92.. Croft's Candy..black back 7
1909 E92.. Dockman 7
1910 E93.. Standard Caramel 4
1911 E94.. George Close Candy 7
1911 E94 George Close Candy w/overprints 9
1909 E95.. Philadelphia Caramel 4
1910 E96.. Philadelphia Caramel 7
1909/10. E97..C. A. Briggs 7
1909/10. E97..C. A. Briggs black and white..(please quit w/the "proof") 9
1910 E98.. Anonymous "Set of 30" 6
1910 E99.. Bishop & Co. PCL 7
1911 E100.. Bishop & Co. PCL 7
1911 E100.. Bishop & Co. PCL type 2 10
1909 E101.. Anonymous "Set of 50" 6
1909 E102.. Anonymous "Set of 25" 6
1910 E103.. Williams Caramel 9
1910 E104-1.. Nadja Caramels 6
1910 E104-2.. Nadja Caramels 6
1910 E104-3.. Nadja Caramels 8
1910 E105.. Mello-Mint 6
1915 E106.. American Caramel 7
1903 E107.. Breisch-Williams 9

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

are thick so they don't count! You only want to rate E cards?

BcD

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Posted By: Dave F

I would think e98's would at least have to be at that 7 range you have e94's at...both seem to be two of the "flakiest" of cards.

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Posted By: Darren

T202 due to its odd size ranks about a 7IMHO.

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Posted By: David Smith

How about some of the REALLY thin issues from the 1920's??

I haven't owned (or even held) most of the cards on your list but some of the card issues from the 1920's are on REALLY thin paper whereas it seems the issues you are talking about are on thicker cardboard.

Just my two cents,

David

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Posted By: Marc S.

E103 and E104-III, as I think the latter is much tougher in mid-high grade

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Posted By: leon

David- I haven't got to the 20's issues but you are right. This was already too many and more than folks want to contemplate ...

Marc- Not sure I agree....I think both might be equally as tough in high grade....We almost never see E103's above a 60.....and barely see E104-III's at all....but I think I have probably seen close the same amount of each above a 60 (very very few)

regards

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Posted By: Dave S

As a Cracker Jack lover, have to think the E145-1 set is as condition-sensitive as any...

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Anybody ever seen a high-grade Scrapps Tobacco card? I know it's not an E or a T card, but it surely is a condition-sensitive prewar issue. I know that there are a few high-grade copies out there, but I've never seen one. Lots of staining, tears, back damage, and missing pieces.

Here's my only one:



-Al

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Posted By: Ralph

Leon's post is a good one & I agree with the list of sets he has posted.As I have another bit of info to add.The "E" series were in rougher shape because these were collected by the younger (Kids) collectors.The kids did not take care of the cards & were not allowed to get their hands on the tobacco cards.Also the candy cards had staining issues more than the tobacco issues.The PCL E cards are tougher in numbers but the other issues are tougher to find in higher grades because of the stock & handling by the KIDS.Just my two cents but think about it before you reply.

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Posted By: Seth B.

T209 II cards are notoriously flaky and certainly condition rarities.

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Posted By: PC

I think we need to distinguish between condition "sensitivity" and condition "rarity".

E98s are highly sensitive, more so than E92s.

While E92s are hard to find in high grade, and are condition "rarities", they are hard to find in high grade because they were beat on, not because they are prone to disintegrate. Compare E98s, which are both typically beat-up and prone to flaking (with the normal damage leading to progresive damage due to the cards' unusual sensitivity).

So, if sensitivity is the measure, the scale above needs to be revisited without giving effect to condition rarity.

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Posted By: leon

I took condition sensitivity and condition rarity as being similar....in that if a card is fragile, or prone to flaking, then it would be less commonly found in high grade....at least that was my thought. I didn't put in the later E cards or any T's as this list is already more than anyone has wanted to stab at. If it went well I would do a later E series then T's....but really it might be overload or not enough interest in the subject matter....I thought it an interesting subject anyway... ...regards

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Posted By: JimB

Are we talking relative to other E sets or relative to T sets? I guess my question is: WHere would T206 rank? If T206 is "Average 5", then virtually all E sets would rank from 7-10. Every E set from E90-1 >E107 is very tough conditionwise compared to T206. In my experience, the tougher E sets, even among E sets are: E107, E98, E94, E103, E105. But even sets like E93 and E95 are extremely tough in ex/mt or better!
JimB

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Posted By: leon

This is relative to other E sets, and only those listed, not T sets. Also, my thought for high grade was anything above a 50-60 grade is high grade for an early E set card....

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Posted By: JimB

Leon,
Relative to other E sets, I agree with your numbers for the most part. My only edit would be that I would move E98s up a notch or two to 7 or 8. Even finding an E98 in vg/ex 50/4 is really tough - especially a 50 with nice eye appeal. Not only do they have the flaking issue, but for some reason (I don't know what), E98s seem to have an inordinate amount of paper loss on the backs. E94s seem to be plagued with staining.
JimB