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#1
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Quote:
I'll stand by the first quote. You will have to show me the second quote that I supposedly made, since I never made that quote. Kind of anxious to find out what I " said "! I'm referring to post #33. Lou
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My new found obsession the t206! Last edited by KCRfan1; 05-18-2016 at 10:23 AM. |
#2
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Lou, I was the one that made that quote about Kershaw being the best I've ever seen. I don't know why he's attributing it to you; perhaps you quoted me in one of your responses? I look at Kershaw's being a lefty, and that's what gives him the edge, for me.
And yes, that includes Johnson. Johnson had 130 starts before he became a dominant starter. Early in his career, he had a ridiculous walks per 9 innings pitched rate. The Big Unit didn't have a good season until 1993, his fifth year in the league. Now, he went on to have a sensational career, obviously. But Kershaw had a 144 ERA + in his second season. Johnson didn't equal that until his sixth season. And Kershaw is as good now as Johnson ever was.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. Last edited by the 'stache; 05-18-2016 at 10:40 AM. |
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If you made the quote, then I'm in good company Bill!
Kershaw still has a ways to go to put up career numbers like Johnson, but thus far in their careers, Kershaw is better than Johnson.
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My new found obsession the t206! |
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One thing to remember: While we are comparing, in most cases, Kershaw's current record to the peaks of others, eventually his numbers will 'normalize' and only then will long-term or career comparisons be valid.
We may now be seeing the best Kershaw there will ever be...or he may surprise us and take it to still another level...now that would be really be worth waiting for. .
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. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente Last edited by clydepepper; 05-18-2016 at 10:57 PM. |
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At 88 strikeouts to 4 walks, we might being seeing that new level. I don't think that ratio is even remotely sustainable, but I'm hoping. At 28, I think we have several years of peak Kershaw ahead.
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Last edited by Dewey; 05-20-2016 at 08:49 AM. |
#6
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he should have another 1.5yrs of absolute peakiness, then start to decline. you can cite all kinds of fancy stats to dissect what he's doing, but simply he's not wild, hitters know strikes are coming...and they still can't hit it. he's a combination of randy johnson and greg maddux.
the big en vogue stat right now for sp is their effectiveness third time thru the lineup. he's pitching like an elite closer ie andrew miller aroldis chapman, but doing it for 8 innings per start. i don't think he can keep up this pace all year, but he'll get his 8-9 win share on this crappy 82 wins dodgers. friedman is wasting kershaw's prime years with suspect relievers (his mo from tampa) and no real offensive threat.
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One post max per thread. |
#7
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I believe that I misquoted you as the person who said something someone else said.................
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429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% |
#8
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Sale 9-0
doesn't face pitchers But we're still talking about Kershaw................ Wonder what it would be like if Sale had been on a good team like Kershaw has most of his career. And then the whole pitching against a pitcher thing.
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429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% Last edited by Joshchisox08; 05-20-2016 at 08:00 AM. |
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Really? You're holding up Sale's 9-0 record as proof that he's somehow better than Clayton Kershaw? You want to go there?
First, the statement about Sale not facing pitchers is really irrelevant, at least as far as 2016 is concerned. The National League is actually scoring more runs per game than the American League. It's not a big gap, but Kershaw is not realizing any benefit there. BTW, Kershaw has 27 career starts against American League teams--185 innings pitched. He has a 2.28 career ERA against teams with a DH. Ok, let's look at this season for Sale and Kershaw. ERA Sale 1.58 Kershaw 1.67 Very slight edge to Sale. Strikeouts Sale 62 in 68.1 IP; 8.2 K/9 IP Kershaw 88 in 70 IP; 11.3 K/9 IP Huge edge to Kershaw Walks Sale 10 in 68.1 IP; 1.3 BB/9 IP Kershaw 4 in 70 IP; 0.5 BB/9 IP edge to Kershaw WHIP Sale 0.717 Kershaw 0.700 slight edge to Kershaw FIP Sale 2.81 Kershaw 1.36 LOL, not even close. Sale's FIP is more than double Kershaw's Hits Sale 5.1 H/9 IP Kershaw 5.8 H/9 IP edge her to Sale Home runs Sale 0.7 HR/9 IP Kershaw 0.4 HR/9 IP edge here to Kershaw Strikeout to walk ratio Sale 6.20 Kershaw 22.0 not even close So, outside of the win loss record, where's Sale's advantage? Kershaw is 6-1, Sale is 9-0. Kershaw pitched 8 innings at Atlanta against the Braves, and gave up 2 runs. Got no run support. He also pitched 8 innings at San Franciso against the Giants, gave up 1 run. Got no run support. The difference between Sale's 9-0 record, and Kershaw being 8-1, is a matter of run support. Nothing else. FIP, which accounts for the things that pitchers alone can control, shows Kershaw is running circles around Sale. Now, shall we compare Kershaw to Sale since Sale became a full-time player in 2011? Win-loss Sale 64-39 (.621) Kershaw 94-34 (.734) But let's forget win-loss records, shall we? ERA Sale 2.84 Kershaw 2.09 ERA + Sale 142 Kershaw 175 shutouts Sale 2 Kershaw 13 FIP Sale 2.95 Kershaw 2.27 WHIP Sale 1.046 Kershaw 0.919 Hit batters Sale 49 in 928.1 IP Kershaw 19 in 1198.0 IP Hits/Home Runs/Walks/Strikeouts per 9 IP Sale 7.3 H/0.9 HR/2.1 BB/10.1 K Kershaw 6.4 H/0.5 HR/1.8 BB/10.0 K Awards Sale 4 x All Star Kershaw 5 x All Star MVP Awards Sale 0 Kershaw 1 Cy Young Awards Sale 0 Kershaw 3 Gold Gloves Sale 0 Kershaw 1 Number of times leading the league in various statistical categories Wins Sale 0 Kershaw 2 ERA Sale 0 Kershaw 4 Strikeouts Sale 1 Kershaw 3 ERA + Sale 1 Kershaw 3 WHIP Sale 0 Kershaw 4 FIP Sale 0 Kershaw 2 And, last but not least, a few metrics WPA (win probability added-number of wins or losses this player has added to their team) Sale 19.1 Kershaw 31.7 Black Ink (average Hall of Famer has a 40) Sale 20 Kershaw 69 Gray Ink (average Hall of Famer has a 185) Sale 89 Kershaw 158 Hall of Fame Monitor (average Hall of Famer has a 100) Sale 30 Kershaw 120 Hall of Fame Standards (average Hall of Famer has a 50) Sale 30 Kershaw 44 Oh, and most similar to at this point in their careers Sale at age 26 Stephen Strasburg Kershaw at age 27 Tom Seaver So, you know what? Chris Sale is a very good pitcher. Nobody here denies that. But he's not in Clayton Kershaw's league, at least thus far, and only you can't seem to see that.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. Last edited by the 'stache; 05-20-2016 at 12:20 PM. |
#10
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A couple more things to consider. Performance against good teams.
Career numbers against teams with below .500 records Sale 30-12, 2.53 ERA, 0.955 WHIP Kershaw 66-26, 2.48 ERA, 1.051 WHIP Career numbers against teams with .500 or + records Sale 36-28, 3.01 ERA, 1.108 WHIP Kershaw 54-31, 2.32 ERA, 0.991 WHIP Kershaw's performance improves against better teams. And as was alluded to earlier, Kershaw gets better as the game wears on. Since 2011, starting pitchers (min 100 starts) ERA against batters in their 1st plate appearance, MLB rank. 1. Clayton Kershaw, 1.72 ERA 9. Chris Sale, 2.72 ERA Since 2011, starting pitchers (min 100 starts) ERA against batters in their 2nd plate appearance, MLB rank. 1. Clayton Kershaw, 2.21 ERA 4. Chris Sale, 2.49 ERA The second time through the lineup, Sale's ERA is only 0.28 higher than Kershaw's. But, it's in that third time through the lineup where Kershaw separates himself from Sale. Since 2011, starting pitchers (min 100 starts) ERA against batters in their 3rd plate appearance, MLB rank. 1. Clayton Kershaw, 2.44 ERA 25. Chris Sale, 3.59 ERA Again, Sale is very good. But Kershaw is the best in the game, and by a comfortable margin.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#11
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Josh,
I'm more than willing to admit that I don't give Sale his due as a great pitcher. The media market and his coverage isn't very good despite the numbers he puts up. If Sale were on the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Chris Sale would be a household name. I would love him on the Royals!!! Who is your avatar of? Side note.......Users or not, Bonds and Clemens were the absolute very best of their time, and rank among the greats. Even juicing, the pitcher still has to throw the ball with expertise, and the batter still has to square up the ball and hit it. Tremendous skill is still required regardless of " enhancement " or not.
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My new found obsession the t206! |
#12
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By comparison, Dodgers "#2 starter" Kazmir gave up 7 walks in 6 2/3 tonight. Against the worst hitting team in the majors. He's #2 alright. Despite being tops in the NL West 3 years running, the organization is wasting the career of their best pitcher since Koufax.
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#13
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Quote:
Avatar is of Ian "Lemmy" Kilmister and "Philthy" Phil Taylor both passed away lat last year
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429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% |
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