Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI

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Posted By: Jim Dale

Looking at the article provided above it would appear a disgruntled buyer has gotten the governments attention. I wonder how much the government (FBI) really wants to look into shill bidding? My guess is they have more important things to do, but the one client might have some pull with someone.

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Posted By: scott fandango

Leon..."Depending on what is being done it's either bad or doesn't matter. That's quite a vague statement. We know some auction houses allow bidders to bid on their own stuff....as has been talked about before. They just have to pay the fees if they win. Did anyone hear that people think the PSA8 Wagner is trimmed?"




when i first read that, i thought he was writing it tounge-in-cheek

i was thinking......with fireworks exploding overhead, Leon says "Move along please, there is nothing to see here..."

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Posted By: leon

Jon- ok maybe it's a secret article. It can't be seen unless you buy the hardcopy. No one has seen the hardcopy or shown a real scan of it in today's paper. Again, I guess it's a secret.

Jay- I will continue to run this board the best way I know how. Thanks for letting me know what I should do though. I will keep it in mind....

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Posted By: Jim Dale

Well if nothing else you have to admit there are some neat political ramifications \ implications here. The last paragraph notes that one of the Mastro brothers was Rudi Guilianis' deputy mayoy....does Rudi collect cards....I smell a scandal I mean come on this is closer to a scandal then Libby's recollection?

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Does anybody really think that for $300 a month, Leon wants to be the Behren's constant verbal pin cushion?

I think Leon would pay the advertisers $300 a month to make them boys go away!

Charlie

Edited to add: This constant harangue of Leon and decisions he made last year is getting very tired.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Nice of you to crawl out from under your slimy rock, Charlie.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Your not serious about that Leon. Are you ?

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

Ouch! Are you going to be attending the N54 dinner this year?

Charlie

Edited to Add: If so, I am looking forward to seeing you there!

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Posted By: leon

I posted about 20 times...what are you referring too? Most likely I am serious about whatever I said....unless of course it was tongue in cheek...

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Posted By: Jim Dale

Leon there was a hard scan of the article posted above on the guys web site:

www.richardsimonsports.com/hofauto2.htm

The date said July 8.

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Posted By: jay behrens

sadly, my limited budget and lack of vacation time will keep me from being there. I won't be able to make it next year either since I will have to travel to Italy to attend my son's graduation.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: leon

Sorry, until I see it in printed form somewhere else I won't believe it's current news. As a matter of fact I am about 95% sure it's old news. NO ONE has shown a full date of the article yet or where it's printed today. I am very skeptical but if shown it is in fact printed somewhere as of July 8,2007, and is an ongoing investigation, I will come back and say I was incorrect. SO far I am not...and NO ONE has proven it. thanks again

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Posted By: Steve

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=595473&STARTPAGE=1

leon you can see the article here:

Steve

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Posted By: Joe D.

What is the date of the NY Daily News article you are referring to?

It seems Leon is suggesting this is old news... and I am not sure if you directly countered that point.


Barry...
"In virtually all online auctions, including my own, the auction house gives the names of all the consignors and the lots he consigned to the web designer. He plugs those names into each lot and if the consignor tries to bid, he gets a message that he is not eligible to do so. That's a simple mechanism built into any auction software."

If someone is going to shill - why would they use their own name? I mean if it is against policy or auction rules to shill... I would think a shiller would be smart enough to use a name other than their own. Point being - the simple mechanism you mention above seems it would do very little to prevent shilling.


Shilling can happen in any auction, and the auction house is in a difficult position (and maybe impossible in some cases).

In the end though - as a bidder - you have to at least hope that the auction house itself is not involved in the shill practice. Without that confidence, it is hard to bid on items in that auction.

Thats why I listen to the guidance/opinions from people within my circle of collector-friends (Net54, NYC Dinner people and such) and I stick to names that have earned my trust...
like Lew Lipset, Barry Sloate, REA and some others.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Leon, look again at Richard's side and look at the right side of the article, you will see the date there.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, I thought made it clear in my initial post that the article is from TODAY's paper. Not every article in the 100 page News makes it to the online edition. Since the Daily News is not Pravda, you'd find that that does not suggest it is a "secret" article. Do you actually think I'd dredge up old news just to bash Mastro? I think Mastro is full of it and greedy as the day is long but I would hardly dredge up old news just to bash it. Are you kidding me?

Very simple solution to this question. Let Doug Allen or Randy Mastro come out here and proclaim that they have ZERO knowledge that the FBI is currrently investigating Mastro. [Insert sounds of crickets chirping here]

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Posted By: leon

That article is a year old. Jay or anyone- do you see a year date anywhere?




Nothing like rehashing old news that wasn't ever proven...I still say...SHOW ME THE PROOF IT'S CURRENT......and then I will say ok...until then there is nothing, imo.....

check this out and the year date stamp....

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/memorabilia/

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Posted By: leon

How do you know it's from today's paper?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

BECAUSE I HAVE IT DELIVERED TO MY APT AND I LIVE IN NYC.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Leon,

Last year, July 8th was a Saturday.

Charlie

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Posted By: jay behrens

Boy, if this doesn't reek of protecting an advertiser, I have no clue what does.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Looks like the investigation is heating up, with multiple FBI interviews of people in the chain of events over recent weeks, which is what the thrust of the article was. The rehash was background for the readers who hadn't been following the story to date; not unusual for journalistic coverage of an ongoing story. I don't see any axe-grinding there.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

Is it possible that Leon is just not excited to believe that a major part of the hobby is invovled in a serious crime? If you love the hobby or make money in the business, this is not good news if they are convicted of a crime.

Charlie

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Posted By: leon

Good enough...it's been going on for a year and nothing has been found...SO now the same old thing has been printed again....If something has been proven please let us know. You really seem like you have it out for Mastro but there are only allegations. Too bad there isn't something with some meat on it....You would really go to town....and if there is proven to be something with meat on it...I will be the first to say...shame on them...so far...nadda...

Jay- I am about done responding to you as there isn't anything else to say. You don't know the difference between protecting and defending. I will defend what I feel is right. I won't protect anyone....sheesh...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joe- I know what you are saying, and a consignor can always ask a friend to bid for him. Nothing I can do about that. It's indefensible. I won't go there, even if I suspect something, because if I am wrong I will lose a customer for nothing. There is only so much you can really do.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Charlie, would it bother you if a major part of the industry was involved in shill bidding or the altering of cards in order to get higher PSA grades upon re-submission?

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

This is not any old auction house they are investigating, this is the top of the line, they are questioning the integrity of Mastro Auctions.

Peter

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jeff,

Yes. I have spent alot of money in Mastro's auctions. If I was getting run up, I would hire you to get some money back. I am still getting checks from the Market Makers from the money they stole from me back in the old Hedge Fund days.

Charlie

Edited to add a "t" in Mastro's.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, if I had it personally out for Mastro I wouldn't win cards in each and every auction they conduct. Can't I be critical of an auction house that I do business with? If I only bid in auctions that I didn't believe were at all crooked, I'd be stuck buying all of Hal's cards in Barry's auctions.

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Posted By: barrysloate

What's wrong with that? Actually, at this point you are too late. They are all gone!

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Posted By: jay behrens

Charlie, that may well be true, but Leon, as a person that takes money from advertisers, needs to understand that when comes out and continually tries to downplay or dismiss everything bad that comes up about one of his advertisers, he opens himself up to criticism and loss of credibility, especially since he claims that the money he takes from advertisers doesn't influence his objectivity.

Leon is the one that mentioned that he has thought about asking Mastro not to advertise any more. Given that Leon has close personal ties to them and finds it necessary to defend them all the time, it's probably the best thing to do so that he can claim to defend a friend rather than an advertiser. His only other real option if you continues to take their money is to remain quiet so as not to give anyone the perception that he is defending an advertiser.

Leon will do what he wants to do. That's been clear since the day he took over the board. Most of the sheep here go along with it. I and other won't.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: leon

First of all I started a new thread with this post so I deleted it quickly....I messed up operationally.....


Adam-If it's heating up again so be it. Hopefully the investigation will prove more currently than it has in the last year, with respect to Mastro. Can anyone show me where anything has been proven that they did wrong? I am not saying they did or didn't.....I don't know.

Jeff- Of course you can be critical of Mastro...but I would hope you would have substantiated facts and not allegations to go on.....Also, I am sure you know the difference in defending and protecting....I am defending them as I have not seen a shred of evidence so far that makes me believe otherwise....I won't protect them though, as you know....

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Honest auto-bid should be mandatory. Why do auctioneers need to see secret auto-bids?

Charlie

Edited to Add: I have had many auto-bids in Mastro's auctions that were not close to being maxed out. I personally have no reason to believe that I was ever run up. In fact, I almost always know who the underbidder is.

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Posted By: peter chao

This is a bonafide class action here, guys. The FBI needs to establish the time frame of the auctions and the lots that were shilled. In other words are we talking about one lot or all the lots. Then anybody that won one of the auctions would be part of the class. If any of you have any questions on how a class auction would proceed, feel free to contact me. I've done a few in my time.

Believe it or not, you are not going to believe the most expensive part of a class action. You need to notify members of the class. The larger the class the more money you spend on postage. Attorney fees normally come from proceeds of the award.

The other aspect of this matter that is interesting, is this is a clear case of fraud. The Court can and will impose punitive damages. This type of lawsuit could bankrupt Mastro's.

Peter

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Posted By: Dan

The funny thing is, you all crucified Steve Verkman and stated how "screwed up" his auctions are and that you would never bid on his items due to a problem he had with one item (the now famous Ruth Calendar).

Instead, we are talking about one of the major auction houses allowing SHILLING. There are several of you that spend a lot of time hunting down shillers on Ebay, yet no one wants to hold Mastro to the fire on this one. If there is any validity to this and other accusations, then this is straight up BS in my opinion.

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Posted By: DR

An auction house Code of Ethics disclure policy publicly confirmed in writing!

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Posted By: P Spaeth

Funny typo there Pete C.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, sadly the FBI does not keep me in the loop in their investigations. If only...

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Posted By: jay behrens

Protecting...defending...it's all semantics. When you get right down to it, it's still the same thing and makes you look bad because claiming the ad money doesn't influence you.

Even though I don't doubt that your personal relationship with Mastro is the overriding factor, the fact that you do take money from them makes you look bad in this situation.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Any time you chime in in defense of an advertiser, friend or not, you are defending/protecting them, plain and simple. Trying to justify it as something else just makes you look bad.

You can't run a money making forum, claim to be unbiased/uninfluenced by the money and then defend/protect your advertisers. It's the reality of your situation whether you like it or not and you will get heat when you don't live up to your claim.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

In regards to this "Honest Bid" in reality how do the bidders know or not whether the auction house can see what they have bid. There is no way that it can be proven and just because it says "Honest Bid" they are suppose to believe it. I think it is a crook..

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bobby -- bingo!

Until the auction industry has some sort of oversight, the crooks will continue to get away with all sorts of fraud. Sad but true.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Let's set some things straight. Here is the article from today's NY Daily News. It is new...it is real. It indicates that the company trying to recover the State of Ohio's lost funds has deferred their investigation to the FBI. The issues of consignor's bidding on their own lots and Mastro shill bidding are under scrutiny. "No comment" has been the FBI's and Mastro's response. I am sure we will hear more.



Frank

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Posted By: jay behrens

Frank, you are going to get in trouble with Leon, because the way the scan is cropped, it could be a July 6, 2001 article

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Since Doug has no problem talking to the media about the allegations I'm sure he won't have a problem coming out here and telling us that he has ZERO knowledge that the FBI is investigating these shilling allegations.

I'll be sitting here patiently, hands folded, waiting for Doug's comment.

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Posted By: leon

You are absolutely correct. It looks as though the investigation continues, according to Jeff, who read it in the paper (I wonder if O'keefe wrote the current article too?). If Mastro, or anyone, shill bids then they should be held accountable. So far it's a lot of people talking about allegations...makes for interesting conversation....So far I feel confident .....no proof...nadda...just a year old investigation...

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, how do you know that there is no proof for these allegations? Because no one has been arrested yet?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think the whole Honest-Auction bid thing is overrated, and here's why: an auction is only as honest as the people running it. With my new software, as well as with my previous phone auctions, I have had access to every ceiling bid. Yet bidders still leave them liberally. And I have had lots go for half the max bids. Why? Because I take full responsibility for what goes on in my auctions.

Business is about people, not about computers. Either you trust someone or you don't. And people either trust me, or anyone else, or they move on. It's that simple.

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Posted By: Randy Trierweiler

Jay, what is your infatuation with Leon? You've been dogging him for years, including sinking to the lowest levels of human decency in your posts. (MGW). Is it jealousy? Why are you so negative all the time? There is no reward for it. Why do you hang out here dogging Leon, and Charlie, instead of trying to improve your own board? (Congratulations on the 13 total posts on your board yesterday, by the way). I can't help but to feel sorry for you man, How can anybody be that negative for so long? I hope you find happiness some day.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Barry,

Well said. And thank you, I received my lot in record time.

Charlie

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Posted By: leon

Nice to see the article was written by someone so impartial? Like I say, a year old reprinted article today, about a year old investigation. Show me the meat baby !!!!