What is the origin of Frank Thomas NNOF?

[isiahfan]

"This card would have been one of the first no name cards coming off the printing press when it occurred. This was run on an offset sheet fed press that does not use dry offset inks but wet. Somehow the printing blanket got damaged during the pressrun and stopped transferring the black ink to the card stock. But what happens is this is 4/color process which means there were 4 blankets or more that might have been used transferring all the inks and when the black blanket got damaged the black ink was still on the other blankets allowing the Frank Thomas name to be there a few more sheets before it totally disappeared. If you notice all of the missing black is consistent with all no names like the missing Topps logo in the lower right corner. You are asking how I know this, I have been in offset sheet fed printing for 43 years and worked for a printing company that printed baseball, basketball and Pokémon trading cards for 19 of those. The process has not changed hardly at all during my years in it. The card graders need a printing expert in these types of cases but think they know it all!!! I believe your card is the real deal, hope this helps your understanding of how this occurred"

[isiahfan]

I've only seen one like yours before & it was in 1990 in Florida: a 1989 Topps card with a shadow name like yours and part of the wavy box with the name inside was shadowed also. Those are usually caught and only occur on one part of the 100-card sheet affected one; maybe two rows of cards. So when these errors occur the maximum that wind up on the 11 (vertical) X 10 (horizontal) sheets is 20-cards. I wouldn't doubt that an employee at the printer kept one for himself only, then it eventually made its way into the hobby.

From the 1980's- early 1990's base cards were printed with a dry ink. When the cartridge started running out a buzzer would sound. At times employees would literally fall asleep (printing was 24/7) and many sheets would print with partial black ink (always the first color to run out) as it was used more frequently on most year cards. That's what happened to your card. Most of the ink ran out on the bottom on the card affecting only the name. Since it was dry ink, it would run out on certain areas in different degrees before it ran out everywhere. Liquid ink doesn't do that. They used liquid ink exclusively since 1995. Employees were supposed to destroy every sheet affected by dry ink cartridges, but when some slipped through it was always DONE ON PURPOSE by the printer employees (paid minimum wage, so they didn't care).

This is how SO MANY wrong back, bland back/front cards wound up in the hobby from the late 1980's to early 1990's as well. It started with Kruk Cards buying ALL these cards from Topps (hundreds of thousands of them) that they sold in 3,000-5,000 count boxes in the 2000's-2015. I have a 5,000 count box of these & a few crazy errors!

[isiahfan]

I've removed their names and credentials so they could not be easily identified...some conflicting info for sure...maybe even some board members....

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

"This card would have been one of the first no name cards coming off the printing press when it occurred. This was run on an offset sheet fed press that does not use dry offset inks but wet. Somehow the printing blanket got damaged during the pressrun and stopped transferring the black ink to the card stock. But what happens is this is 4/color process which means there were 4 blankets or more that might have been used transferring all the inks and when the black blanket got damaged the black ink was still on the other blankets allowing the Frank Thomas name to be there a few more sheets before it totally disappeared. If you notice all of the missing black is consistent with all no names like the missing Topps logo in the lower right corner. You are asking how I know this, I have been in offset sheet fed printing for 43 years and worked for a printing company that printed baseball, basketball and Pokémon trading cards for 19 of those. The process has not changed hardly at all during my years in it. The card graders need a printing expert in these types of cases but think they know it all!!! I believe your card is the real deal, hope this helps your understanding of how this occurred"

That is actually fairly close to what could have happened. I don't see it as being a blanket problem that caused the error. My best guess though is really really close to what this person told you. The stuff you have quoted in you listing is so silly it has to be driving any serious buyer away.

If you don't know what a blanket is I am sure I have an old one from a Hiedelberg out in the garage. I can take a pic and post it if you want.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is actually fairly close to what could have happened. I don't see it as being a blanket problem that caused the error. My best guess though is really really close to what this person told you. The stuff you have quoted in you listing is so silly it has to be driving any serious buyer away.

If you don't know what a blanket is I am sure I have an old one from a Hiedelberg out in the garage. I can take a pic and post it if you want.

As stated..I know nothing about the printing process. I am curious what you keep specifically referring to in my description and why you are so confident in how the error occurred. To be honest I don't really care about how it happened...just care that one of the big 2 card grading companies will give it a NNOF (preferably) or Partial Blackless. I highly doubt my description scares away anyone..it's the lack of grading IMHO that is killing it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

As stated..I know nothing about the printing process. I am curious what you keep specifically referring to in my description and why you are so confident in how the error occurred. To be honest I don't really care about how it happened...just care that one of the big 2 card grading companies will give it a NNOF (preferably) or Partial Blackless. I highly doubt my description scares away anyone..it's the lack of grading IMHO that is killing it.

It is beyond obvious one of your experts is wrong. You quoted the wrong one in your listing.

This is what a printing blanket looks like. The streaks are rain as it and me got wet when I brought it in from the garage. I took the pic in front of my bat rack that I have posted pics of several times on this forum. That means I am not trying to act cool and pretend I know what I am talking about.

There really is no way of knowing exactly what happened but it is easy to know what did not happen.

I actually think it is 100% real if that matters.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is beyond obvious one of your experts is wrong. You quoted the wrong one in your listing.

This is what a printing blanket looks like. The streaks are rain as it and me got wet when I brought it in from the garage. I took the pic in front of my bat rack that I have posted pics of several times on this forum. That means I am not trying to act cool and pretend I know what I am talking about.

There really is no way of knowing exactly what happened but it is easy to know what did not happen.

I actually think it is 100% real if that matters.

I appreciate it....I am always happy to learn more about the process

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

I appreciate it....I am always happy to learn more about the process

Honestly the biggest thing for me is. If I was buying a $10K card that is a only known printing error and had no printing knowledge. I would find someone that did, When they read what you have quoted they would laugh and tell the buyer to pass. JMHO

The top part of you listing is great. I also believe it had to be the first or really close to the first NNOF card printed. I could be wrong but it is my best guess.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Honestly the biggest thing for me is. If I was buying a $10K that is a only known printing error and had no printing knowledge. I would find someone that did, When they read what you have quoted they would laugh and tell the buyer to pass. JMHO

The top part of you listing is great. I also believe it had to be the first or really close to the first NNOF card printed. I could be wrong but it is my best guess.

I got ya...and I will change it....but I think we will agree to disagree on the influence it would have on an average buyer. I don't think most would buy it without it being slabbed (Sadly...and in many cases understandably... this is where the hobby has gone), and the few that would probably crap money and don't care. I think very few people without specific knowledge themselves would procure and take into serious consideration that of an expert as the value is directly related to the certification. Next show I go to I will get it slabbed...even if just as a regular card...and see how that affects the sale?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is beyond obvious one of your experts is wrong. You quoted the wrong one in your listing.

This is what a printing blanket looks like. The streaks are rain as it and me got wet when I brought it in from the garage. I took the pic in front of my bat rack that I have posted pics of several times on this forum. That means I am not trying to act cool and pretend I know what I am talking about.

There really is no way of knowing exactly what happened but it is easy to know what did not happen.

I actually think it is 100% real if that matters.

That's what that is all right.
Ours were green.

Depending on the press, there would either be one, cleaned between colors. Or one for each color.
I don't know of a multi color press that put all four colors plus glosscoat on the same blanket. No that there are none, just that there aren't any I know of for offset lithography.
(BEP has/had a press or two that could do multi color intaglio from one plate, but that's an entirely different process, and not offset in any way. As far as I know they were never all that open about how it worked.)

Those blankets are fairly thick rubber, and Ours were fabric reinforced. They were hard to damage, especially to the extent of the missing black patch on the NNOF sheet. When they got old they would crack a bit like any other rubber then it was time to replace them. That wasn't all that often.

Since they're compressible, shallow damage will affect the print quality. But it doesn't look like that.

What does look like that is debris in the platemaking process, especially since the missing area looks like packing tape.

Dry offset printing could be a couple things, one process called that uses a rubber plate similar to typesetting. Which prints to the blanket. But it's usually used for printing onto plastic or metal.

Or it could be waterless printing, where instead of a plate that retains water so it can reject ink in the unprinted areas, the plate has silicone or other ink repelling materials. It's fairly new and I don't know the exact date, but the plates are made and used in a similar way to traditional plates.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's what that is all right.
Ours were green.

They come in handy around the house. Besides making perfectly centered 60s Mantles(joking) they are way better than kneeling or laying on the ground when working on stuff. That is why I have one at home, no press in the garage.

[HalfNipponese]

Here's an article about my find and the recent pull documented on the CU forum. There's also discussion about a potential 14th card on the board.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-junk-wax-era/