New to the forums and wanted your thoughts on these two Aarons I purchased last week

[buckydent]

Hi,

I am new here and actually found you folks by way of Google on researching ways to detect fraudalent and counterfeit high dollar cards. If you are like me, I am very wary of the scammers and too good to be true deals on certain cards, and the hobby is loaded with folks that ruin it for the rest of us at times.

I collect sets primarily from 1952 through 1971. For the most part I splurge only on the 10 -15 key stars or HOF'ers in the set, and then fill in the rest of my set with ungraded and graded cards that fall into the "5" range because you can find some really nice looking 5's without having to spend a fortune. I save the bigger purchases for the key cards and also try to find cards that have the look and feel of a 7 or 8, but may be in a 6 holder with an issue that's not so important to me that knocks it down a grade or two. It's all about the fun of it, and I love seeing cards of players I remember fondly who I haven't thought about in 20 or 30 years and then being reminded of a game event , batting stance, playoff game, funny story (Billy, Mickey &Whitey ) or numerical stat associated with that player.

Most of the cards I buy are on ebay. I have a handicap, so it's not easy to get around to shows on foot, so I do alot of buying online. It's also great for putting together sets, because you can indeed find commons on the cheap. For the most part, I thought buying graded cards was the way to go ( trust and always verify of course once you receive it ), and learned my lesson about 12 years ago with CSA that not all grading companies are created equal (on aspects such as trimming). But I really thought PSA and SGC were the gold standard. I did not know people were opening cases, resealing cases and changing labels - yikes ! I assumed you could not open and reseal holders without doing grave and obvious damage to the case.

I picked up three Hank Aaron cards last week: 1954 Topps, 1955 Topps and the 1955 Bowman on ebay. For 2011, I am currently working on all Aarons that I do not have from 1954 through 1971 and on completing my 1955 and 1971 sets with 1971 as my first priority ( my second favorite all time set ). The ebay scans of all three graded cards looked great, but when I received 2 of the cards ( the 55 Bowman has not arrived yet), things did not quite look the same as the auction scans on ebay, and in one case the PSA case looked tampered with which is what pushed me to quickly start checking google to see if PSA, BVG and SGC holders were being fraudalently created or tampered with. Low and behold, I found your discussions on case frosting and the likes that indicate tampering and I am grateful for this community to be educating unknowing buyers like me who thought that the graded cards gave you piece of mind. I do always check them under light, with a magnifying glass and most importantly to me: compare to other cards in the same set for size , color, imperfections, printing trends etc. The case in the eBay auction did not show these marks as the photo hid the edges on the 54 Aaron that has marks inside the plastic.

I have enclosed photos of the 1954 and 1955 Topps Aaron, please let me know your thoughts. The 1954 Aaron case looks tampered with along the right side, top right and entire bottom. Why would a case be this crummy on a '54 Aaron?, that to me was a red flag, and none of my other PSA cards have cases that look like this, it's still sealed and firm, but why all the stray markings, and greyness/cloudiness in a few areas that shows up under light. One thing that looked strange under the magnifier, was that the jersey bleeds into the bottom border ( the red goes into the white boarder ) and I could not find this happening on any other 1954 card that I have, and was wondering if any of you had an AAron that did this. It's a gorgeous card, albeit off center ( which does not bother me ), that has rich colors and nice corners. The PSA case back has white writing from PSA, not silver and a collectors universe hologram logo. I could not find one other graded card I owned, that had white PSA writing on the case back, and all had either a PSA logo or silver writing with the stock ticker. Was this another version of the PSA case? The seller told me that the card was freshly graded, but that he obtained it in a online auction, not from PSA directly. If it was fresh, why is the case not perfect on such an important card? How do I know if the card is real? Any tell tale signs?

For the 1955, an even more disturbing problem - the case looks 95% perfect with one stray blotch on the bottom but the card looks too good to be a PSA 6 except for top /bottom centering and the logo area. The logo area is what concerned me most - excess inks outside the circle and to the right of the logo. Should that be? See it?

Please see the attached photos, and let me know your thoughts, I used a digital camera, and lighting and zoom can be an issue, but I think the photos display all the potential issues. Please let me know your thoughts, and I really appreciate your help ascertaining that these are the real mccoy and legit cards. I have many more photos, but thought this would get the ball rolling for all you collecting detectives to jump on.

I have more detailed photos, but could only include 5.

Thanks in advance for your help and happy to be here,
Greg

[scmavl]

Greg,
Welcome to the forum. There is a lot of knowledge to be had here and some nice fellas. I'll have a look at my '54 Aaron when I get home tonight to compare. There have been quite a few versions of PSA cases, and I believe the white + hologram looks legit. I know there is a thread somewhere on Net54 going over each version of the case and what it should look like, front and back. That is an older slab with the white printed on the case + sticker, and the front says PSA in rounded letters, which matches. They changed the front font as well as making the writing on the back of the flip totally inside the slab after that. It's hard to tell by the pics the degree of case tampering, although there are members here that may be able to tell by the photos.

I'm no help on the '55, sorry.

[buckydent]

Jarrod,

Thanks for your comments about that version of the PSA case for the '54 Aaron. Good to know this. The difference in font size for the PSA label was also a cause for concern for me and looked different compared to all I have.

As for the condition of the case - it looks much better against a white background than against a black one under light. I'll post the "seller photo" where the case looks good with the white background, and it's tough to see the cases flaws. With a strong light and black background, you can see just about every imperfection in the case including minor scuffs and clouding. I get alarmed when you see just about every low dollar card you own in a flawless case, and high dollar "key" rookie cards in cases that look suspect and handled - makes me now wonder. There is no reason for it.

As for the card itself I am focussing on several issues of concern.

I have looked at over 100+ cards ( on ebay ), and could not find another AAron rookie that had the bottom of his jersey bleed into the border with the exception of two other cards on ebay. One is a raw Aaron ungraded and listed on ebay right now for 554.99 that has the same issues as my psa 8 oc Aaron: (1) red specs/printers marks to the left of the braves logo, (2) the bottom of the jersey bleeding into the bottom border under magnification, (3) a grey dash above the fielding figure of Aaron, and (4) an indentation along the left border when the color changes from orange to grey ( see that? the whole grey section moves in slightly - weird ! ) It looks like the same card except for the centering and imperfections. I could also not find these issues on other 1954 cards of different players with the orange background or the Braves logo. So it makes me wonder - all of this AND a tampered case? hmmm

I was curious to know if other people had Aaron's with these issues, again thanks for the help, your thoughts and for taking a look. Real or fake?

I have enclosed a few more photos:

1) the seller photo against a white background
2-4) each of the issues
5) the ungraded Aaron on ebay right now, that looks similar to mine issue wise

So do you think I should send it into PSA and can they help verify?
All the best, cheers

Greg

[T205]

Greg,
First welcome to the boards. Are you concerned that the logo was re-colored or touched up? In most of the examples of the Aaron '55 I have seen has that same imperfection the blue ink "bleeding" onto the yellow background.. Through my exerience collecting the '55 set in high grade it seems like a lot of the yellow background cards will almost always have black spots on them. I do not see anything wrong with your 55. I hope this helps.

[steve B]

Nice pictures for a digital camera! Lots of people do far worse with a scanner.

A bit of what you're looking at is registration. On the 54 the red is printed a bit low and to the left. That will make some red print be below the inmage at the botom, and also make the orange background appear slightly left causing the indent for the gray of the uniform. It's also what makes the red of the feathers show up to the left of the headdress outline on the logo.

I can't really see the gray line above the fielding pic. There's a few things that could be. I don't have an Aaron to compare, but there are lots of little differences in many Topps issues that aren't really recognized as variations but are there.

The dots left of the logo are also tough to see, but stuff like that is pretty common on 50's cards. It's usually from a bit of ink spatter from overinking.
(Some could also be plate differences caused by dust in the photo or platemaking process, but I'd have to see a group of identical ones to feel confident calling it that)

Steve B

[buckydent]

Edward and Steve - thanks for your comments and analysis.

Edward, Yes - I was concerned with color touch up on the '55 and also with the batting figure of Aaron having a fuzzy face. As you can see a normal size scan of the card looks great, but when you look under magnification at the logo, you see the extra ink ( extra blue dots below the logo and circle and the extra red outline to the right of the mascot's face and nose ), it could simply be print defect or variation. Wanted to hear from '55 experts like yourself on how common this is - thank you. I do not see these issues on my '55 Clemente ( including the face not being fuzzy like Aaron's), so it seems to be with the Aaron only, for cards I have from this set.

Steve,
I used a sony 10 megapixel I got 5 years ago for my birthday, it has a zeiss lens and allows you to really zoom in which is cool for card photos because you can really magnify things ( like a loupe in that respect ). Never use a flash, and then use a black background and a lamp behind you. The scanners are good because you get the actual size of the card for measurement, which cannot be done with the camera ( so you measure manually ). I used a loupe first to analyze the edges, colors, writing and other areas. The two things that freaked me out about the '54 rookie are the bottom of the shirt having the the red color bleed into the white border in both spots because the craig list fakes have the same issue. On the other hand, the figure of Aaron is presented very nicely detail wise and his arm logo, fingers, the ball and shoes are all very detailed and visible - looks legit. The indentation of the color change from orange to grey is also subtle and looks like a 1/48th of an inch indentation even under the loupe and also as you can see in the seller scan and my blow up. Does your Aaron also have this indentation? and do you think the shadow under the hat is the right color? The red specs to the left of the logo seem legit, but again, have not seen another Aaron like this except for the raw one on ebay right now for 554.99 that has every imperfection that my graded Aaron has ( red spots, bleeding jersey, indentation, stray grey line etc). If the PSA case were perfect, I would not think twice about it being legit. The stray grey line above the fielding figure of Aaron can best be seen in the seller photo ( first photo in my 2nd batch ).

Thanks again Guys
Much appreciated

Greg