Card doctoring debacle

[Mark]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

In real estate there are the three "L's" -- location, location, location.

In memorabilia, there are the thee "P's -- provenance, provenance, provenance.

I don't care how well something passes a "photo match" test or a "look-right" test. With memorabilia now in 7-figure territory, counterfeiters have taken their craft to a level that IMO can fool even the best authenticators. If the provenance is not there, then forensic examination is the next choice. Without one of these two, I wouldn't touch any "too-good-to-be-true" item of memorabilia.

Fair enough, but how do know, for sure and for certain, that the provenance is legit?

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Mark

Fair enough, but how do know, for sure and for certain, that the provenance is legit?

Documentation of provenance isn't fool proof, and can be forged and faked (Everyone knows many fakes and reprint on eBay come fish stories), and is used in conjunction with, or as supporting evidence of, the physical examination. Good provenance and physical examination support each other.

Sometimes provenance shows that an item has been around for a long time, which is in and of itself helpful information. Obviously, at the least rules it out as a recent creation.

[Leon]

Criminal Peter Nash pleaded the 5th Amendment over 100 times in court, I was told by a reliable source, when asked where he got fake memorabilia he consigned. Seems the trail stopped at him, the bad actor. This was years ago. The premise is allegedly he took a good piece, put another good piece with it, and made it into something it wasn't. Kind of like 1+1 = 3. So yes, there is very high level fraud in memorabilia just as there is in cards. Probably not a ton different. Fraud and deceit are common factors. There is almost always a leap of faith and it just depends on how big of a leap someone wants to take. I am not a person who leaps very much.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Leon

Criminal Peter Nash pleaded the 5th Amendment over 100 times in court, I was told by a reliable source, when asked where he got fake memorabilia he consigned. Seems the trail stopped at him, the bad actor. This was years ago. The premise is allegedly he took a good piece, put another good piece with it, and made it into something it wasn't. Kind of like 1+1 = 3. So yes, there is very high level fraud in memorabilia just as there is in cards. Probably not a ton different. Fraud and deceit are common factors. There is almost always a leap of faith and it just depends on how big of a leap someone wants to take. I am not a person who leaps very much.

Agreed, quite rampant in memorabilia, autographs and such.

it pales in comparison to what one Brent Mastro has done to the hobby in the way of fraud. And you can see, there are many many others doing the same thing he is doing. It's Fraud, not to mention the undoubted fact that they are not paying their income taxes on those shady gains. I can guaranfuckintee it. They are raking in a shit ton of unclaimed income from their unsuspecting dupes and it is of biblical proportions. All for taking cards out of the stupid plastic containers, dipping in chemicals, painting and trimming, encasing back in plastic and repeating over and over and over again until they finally put their hands in the cookie jar 1 too many times.

It's sickening what they have done really. Common criminals is what they are that found themselves a nice little niche. Punishable by a baseball card blog that few read. Nice work if you have the balls to rip people a new a hole. Brent Mastro is numb to it all. A complete loser dickhead if ever there was one.

Just like you or I found a niche in business but we try to do it with morals and integrity first. Brent Mastro thinks only of himself, is full of shit and his descriptions are nothing more than a fish tale that will make you wet all behind his smoke and mirrors.

People bought in to it and that's what I find fascinating.... How people are so damned moronic at giving their money away to a confirmed Jerkmehoff common criminal

Ruined cards are no more than fake autographs and they have ruined millions, not a few hundred that have been found out. Do the math and you'll see.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Can just collect altered cards i guess.

The cards are still real ..if paying at altered prices i dont see how these cards cant be in the hobby and its buy the card not holder.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Can just collect altered cards i guess.

The cards are still real ..if paying at altered prices i dont see how these cards cant be in the hobby and its buy the card not holder.

Great post Jake. I have been doing that for years. As long as the seller is honest I have no problem buying altered card. I got a 39 Ted Williams rookie cheap because it was altered.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Can just collect altered cards i guess.

The cards are still real ..if paying at altered prices i dont see how these cards cant be in the hobby and its buy the card not holder.

Yes, it all comes down to pricing. Everything has a financial value, but it matters what is the value. If you're pricing everything as altered-- or, at least, as if it isn't not altered--, you have no financial issue. The only practical problem is some rube will price it as a PSA unaltered 7.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by drcy

Yes, it all comes down to pricing. Everything has a financial value, but it matters what is the value. If you're pricing everything as altered-- or, at least, as if it isn't not altered--, you have no financial issue. The only practical problem is some rube will price it as a PSA unaltered 7.

Pricing and honesty. Selling an altered card as a numerically graded card is kinda the problem.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Leon

Criminal Peter Nash pleaded the 5th Amendment over 100 times in court, I was told by a reliable source, when asked where he got fake memorabilia he consigned. Seems the trail stopped at him, the bad actor. This was years ago. The premise is allegedly he took a good piece, put another good piece with it, and made it into something it wasn't. Kind of like 1+1 = 3. So yes, there is very high level fraud in memorabilia just as there is in cards. Probably not a ton different. Fraud and deceit are common factors. There is almost always a leap of faith and it just depends on how big of a leap someone wants to take. I am not a person who leaps very much.

Have you seen this article on the Criminal Peter Nash "Nice"

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business...n-13179601.php

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Have you seen this article on the Criminal Peter Nash "Nice"

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business...n-13179601.php

https://www.timesunion.com/business/...e-13217564.php

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by drcy

Documentation of provenance isn't fool proof, and can be forged and faked (Everyone knows many fakes and reprint on eBay come fish stories), and is used in conjunction with, or as supporting evidence of, the physical examination. Good provenance and physical examination support each other.

Sometimes provenance shows that an item has been around for a long time, which is in and of itself helpful information. Obviously, at the least rules it out as a recent creation.

This to me is the key thing I look to in regard to provenance. The crux of my collection is 19th century. Very few of those items have provenance that take the item back to its point of inception. But if I can go far enough back in time to a point when there would have been no financial incentive to manufacture a counterfeit, I would feel the item is real. Of course accompanying this would be visual examination, though that is a negative test -- it can show something is fake but in and of itself it cannot establish something is real.

A favorite tactic of counterfeiters is, after having created the fake, to induce a prestigious museum to display it for a period of time. If one is selling, say, a Ruth item, it makes for a great story to say the item comes directly from the Babe Ruth museum. But unless one knows the history of how the museum got it and its prior provenance, having been on display at the museum in and of itself means essentially nothing.

To the point that provenance can be faked, that is absolutely correct. There have also been instances where fake items came directly from the descendants of former players. Often they would "seed" the fake in with genuine items in order to induce a prospective purchaser to lower his/her guard. Or the seeding would be done not by the family but by the person who bought genuine items from the family.

Bottom line -- there is a lot of great genuine stuff out there to enjoy, but as the prices of really good stuff continue to rise, one must be more and more careful in deciding whether the item is real.

I think it might have been Jay Miller who used the term "suspended disbelief" to characterize the mind set of a person who sees an opportunity to purchase his/her dream item. The person so badly wants the item to be real that he/she loses his/her ability to objectively evaluate it.

[drcy]

Physical examination sometimes has shown that the provenance is fake. Works both ways.

An example of provenance that doesn't prove but is helpful is a baseball bat that comes from a team or the player's family. It doesn't prove the bat was game used or a even game model, but, in conjunction with physical examination helps show that the bat was game used by the player.

I know with modern (Post 1987?) MLB jerseys, an era when retail and team-issued jerseys can be identical, MEARS won't give a grade above 5 without team or like provenance.

I think photomatching for game used items is good, but am a bit wary of it and don't think it should be used as be all and end all. I think there will be, if there hasn't already been, trickery there. I also think "that the pinstripes match up" is useful information, but don't know that that's the final arbiter. There have been no scientific studies of that area, just assumptions.