Jacob deGrom most Ks in first 200 games

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Closer role in the sense that he got saves and finished games but clearly not solely responsible for doing that. He pitched in over 100 games and threw 200 innings but only recorded 21 saves.

This SABR article has some interesting information on Marshall's season as well. It notes that under modern rules Marshall would have been credited with 30 saves that season, and that he only converted 64 percent of his save opportunities, which would be pretty poor for an out and out closer.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/mike-marshall/

If your argument was that closers did not exist back then, you might have a point. To argue that closers in the current sense did not exist back then, and therefore Marshall and Lyle were middle relievers, is illogical.

[packs]

What I'm saying is that he finished games and got saves but he was clearly not solely a closer. I can't tell how many innings he would pitch or when looking at Baseball Reference but the SABR article illustrates he was not very good at getting saves when he had the opportunity. It seems like he was much better in other capacities, which is what I'm trying to point out. I don't think he won the Cy Young that year because he led the league in saves.

I think he won the Cy Young because of his volume usage, which is not something you associate with closers and you will never see a closer throw 200 innings or appear in 100 plus games. You WILL see a middle relief pitcher appear in a huge number of games and throw a large amount of innings.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

What I'm saying is that he finished games and got saves but he was clearly not solely a closer. I can't tell how many innings he would pitch or when looking at Baseball Reference but the SABR article illustrates he was not very good at getting saves when he had the opportunity. It seems like he was much better in other capacities, which is what I'm trying to point out. I don't think he won the Cy Young that year because he led the league in saves.

I think he won the Cy Young because of his volume usage, which is not something you associate with closers and you will never see a closer throw 200 innings or appear in 100 plus games. You WILL see a middle relief pitcher appear in a huge number of games and throw a large amount of innings.

right i have also argued that 1 inning closers dont below in the HOF except maybe rivera...there are tons of SPs that could of closed ....why does a closer get to the HOF with 1/7th of the pitching a starter gets..


i dont see career pitch hitters go into the HOF even though best at what they do for the position.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right i have also argued that 1 inning closers dont below in the HOF except maybe rivera...there are tons of SPs that could of closed ....why does a closer get to the HOF with 1/7th of the pitching a starter gets..


i dont see career pitch hitters go into the HOF even though best at what they do for the position.

People make this argument, but if a successful closer is just a failed starter, why doesn't EVERY team have a top of the line closer?

Guys who can do the job and do it for an extended period of time are actually pretty rare. Rivera, Hoffman, Wagner, etc.

It's kind of like people who argue against DH's being in the Hall of Fame. The DH has been around longer than I have, and I'm not exactly young. Even closers...if you think about the original "firemen" like Gossage and Fingers, you're talking primes in the late 70's/early 80's 40+ years ago. Even when you started to see more "one-inning" closers was 30+ years ago.

The game evolves...if we're only going to put 300 game winners in the Hall, we're done putting in pitchers. Just like if you're going to put every 400 HR hitter in there, ya gonna have to build a new wing to the hall.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

People make this argument, but if a successful closer is just a failed starter, why doesn't EVERY team have a top of the line closer?

Guys who can do the job and do it for an extended period of time are actually pretty rare. Rivera, Hoffman, Wagner, etc.

It's kind of like people who argue against DH's being in the Hall of Fame. The DH has been around longer than I have, and I'm not exactly young. Even closers...if you think about the original "firemen" like Gossage and Fingers, you're talking primes in the late 70's/early 80's 40+ years ago. Even when you started to see more "one-inning" closers was 30+ years ago.

The game evolves...if we're only going to put 300 game winners in the Hall, we're done putting in pitchers. Just like if you're going to put every 400 HR hitter in there, ya gonna have to build a new wing to the hall.

Smoltz would of been an HOF closer , but how many closers would be HOF starting pitchers and at what ratio

There are a TON of number 2 pitchers on teams that would be all star closers.

many closers only have 2 pitches..its real hard to go through a lineup 3 times with that stuff even if both pitches are great..

[packs]

Most teams have a hard time finding reliable closers so if there was some number 2 starter on the team who could finish games with their eyes closed, they would be.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by packs

Most teams have a hard time finding reliable closers so if there was some number 2 starter on the team who could finish games with their eyes closed, they would be.

I disagree. A #2 starter (or any quality starter) is more valuable than the best reliever. If a pitcher can give me 200 quality innings over the course of a season how is the guy who gives me 60 such innings more valuable? Runs don't care when they're scored. Your closer doesn't do you much good if you never have the lead!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

Most teams have a hard time finding reliable closers so if there was some number 2 starter on the team who could finish games with their eyes closed, they would be.

disagree, you need a number 2 starter to win playoff series ....no team would take a solid number 2 starter and make them in a closer...now if the closer could be a number 2 pitcher they would convert them..im sure if you look at the salaries and value of money that will show you as well.. i have seen washed up starting pitchers ie. Jose Mesa et al. who become decent closers but never seen a washed up closer become a number 2 starter for a number of years or at least much much much more rare...

remember lots of number 2 starters go to the HOF or are at least argued...i would say andy petitte would be a number 2 starter for instance..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

If your argument was that closers did not exist back then, you might have a point. To argue that closers in the current sense did not exist back then, and therefore Marshall and Lyle were middle relievers, is illogical.

Weren't Lyle and Gossage considered closers AT THE TIME? Or is that an after the fact gloss?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Weren't Lyle and Gossage considered closers AT THE TIME? Or is that an after the fact gloss?

Yes. Hence why I contextualized "in the current sense" as the job is markedly different.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes. Hence why I contextualized "in the current sense" as the job is markedly different.

They just closed a bigger opening, or something like that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe in the future, as has been speculated already by some here although they may have been facetious, we will have an opener instead of a starter -- a guy whose job is to pitch the first inning.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe in the future, as has been speculated already by some here although they may have been facetious, we will have an opener instead of a starter -- a guy whose job is to pitch the first inning.

I would think the long term path is that no pitcher will throw more than 3 innings at most, because the data suggests effectiveness recedes every time a hitter sees the same pitcher again that day. I don't doubt that this is true and that the new ways are more objectively efficient to producing wins in context than the old ways, but it's not as fun, personally.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would think the long term path is that no pitcher will throw more than 3 innings at most, because the data suggests effectiveness recedes every time a hitter sees the same pitcher again that day. I don't doubt that this is true and that the new ways are more objectively efficient to producing wins in context than the old ways, but it's not as fun, personally.

But isn't that offset by the fact that your starter is a better pitcher than the journeyman who replaces him? I admit not to knowing the data, but I can't believe it would pay to yank Pedro Martinez in the 4th in factor of some fungible castoff.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They just closed a bigger opening, or something like that.

I think the old relievers produced much, much more value to their teams, just as old starters did. Marshall hurled more innings than any starter does today. It's hard to produce true value on par with the older guys when they are allowed to throw so little these days. Marshall, Gossage, Lyle, none of them were middle relievers in any real sense.

[Snapolit1]

If you look at the body of work DeGrom has put up the last few years, wins aside because the Mets have not supported him to a staggering degree, he is the single most dominant force probably since Koufax. I mean he comes back this year in his second start and nearly throws 6 perfect innings, striking out 12 of 17 batters he faced. And presumably not up to 100% strength. Crazy.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you look at the body of work DeGrom has put up the last few years, wins aside because the Mets have not supported him to a staggering degree, he is the single most dominant force probably since Koufax. I mean he comes back this year in his second start and nearly throws 6 perfect innings, striking out 12 of 17 batters he faced. And presumably not up to 100% strength. Crazy.

it is amazing how few games he has 'won' considering how good he is...

jose fernandez won like 17 of 19 games at home at some point on terrible marlins teams......even last place teams on the days their stud pitcher is pitching are considered playoff teams for that day.

[clydepepper]

Segwaying back to my weighty note on Vogelbach...I identify with both he and Big Sexy as I'm 6-1, 325 myself.

I'm so glad Bartolo hit his Dinger before quit letting pitcher hit...perhaps that was why?



I Can't go to the beach for two reasons:

People gather on my shady side

and

Saying, 'Hurry! He can't breath!' - they try to push me back into the water.



Thank you very much...I'll be here all week...be sure to tip your waitresses.


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